Drapaudi and drishtdyum - Page 4

THEORY 1

1. Drupada didn't want simply a son. He wanted a son who could kill Drona, a brahmana. According to rules, only a brahmana could kill another brahmana. ie, he needed to adopt a brahmana boy who was exceptional in battle tactics and weaponry. Dhrishtadyumna was said to have been born with armor and weaponry, skilled in his knowledge of battle/war.

2. Panchali probably came as package deal. If Dhrishtadyumna were an orphan, and Panchali were his sister/twin, he'd not going to leave her behind.

This is where the Agni Angirasa possibility comes in. Because Mahabharata states several times Angirasa is Agni.

In some oral Nepali versions of Mahabarata, Panchali leaves the Pandavas after war and goes on a pilgrimage of fire. ie, to her home with the Angirasas.

Since Ghora Angirasa was Krishna's guru according to Chandogya Unpanishad, this explains his connection to Panchali.

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THEORY 2

Shikhandi, I believe, was Amba's child. She is said to have left a "flower" at Panchal's doorstep. Panchal was her maternal family, so it stands to reason.

If you take that further, it is entirely possible Drupada could not have children and adopted Shikhandi first. When the king realized the boy was gay/trans, he wanted another son.

Combine this with THEORY 1, you have an answer.

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THEORY 3

There is a Buddhist jataka which bluntly states the king of Kashi (who was also king of Panchal as stated in other Buddhist jatakas) killed the king of Kosala (strangely, Amba's land, again). Kosala prince was an infant at the time and hidden. He was later found when he had the Kashi king's life at his mercy and decides to forgive him. Then the king of Kashi adopts the prince, the son of king of Kosala.

This is where things get interesting. The queen of Kosala was pregnant at the time of the Kasi-Kosala clash with her 2nd child. The victor, the king of Kashi married her and brings her home as he didn't have any children of his own.

A girl was born who they named KANHA. This girl marries the sons of Pandu.

Now, the jatakas call Panchali a *****, but their judgement of her morality aside, it is the only place I have seen Panchali's (and Dhrishtadyumna's) origins bluntly stated.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j5/j5029.htm

Back to Mahabharata. Asita, Nandagopa's brother, had two sons - Devala and Dhaumya. Yes, the Pandava priest. Devala had a scholarly daughter called Sannati who was married to Brahmadutta, the king of Panchal. Elsewhere, Bheeshma also calls the king of Panchal as Brahmadutta. My guess is it was a title.

So there you go, Panchali's father and mother.

Biological father - king of Kosala, adoptive father - king of Panchal/Kashi.

Mother - Sannati, the daughter of Devala, the niece of Nandagopa.

This would also explain Panchali's connection to Krishna WITH OR WITHOUT Buddhist jataka portion.

FYI, though Sannati would've technically been Krishna's niece, she was of Pandu's gen as Asita once proposed marriage to Satyavati before she married Shanthanu.😆 So Asita was Shanthanu's gen, Devala was Bheeshma's, Sannati was Pandu's. But technically, she was Krishna's foster niece😆

I'm not going searching through links for MBH parts. If you have CE in Kindle format, run a search😆.

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@CaptainSpark. I think you might be quoting Prof. Bandhopadhyay's theory. There are lots of holes in it.

1. Drupada is actually said to have paid the sages a lot of money. There was no reason to say it.

2. The queen bluntly refused to go an participate.

3. Dhrishtadyumna was supposed to have trained under Drona. And at his birth, he was supposed to have been fully trained, so it occurred before the yajna.

It is not likely that Drupada did not deploy a fully trained Dhrishtadyumna in the battle with the Pandavas.

4. Where was Drupada at the beginning of the exile? Only Dhrishtadyumna (maybe Shikhandi, too) shows up with Krishna. No parent on earth will sit comfortably at home if they hear such news. Unless of course they didn't care. Panchali's description of her father (sitting on her father's lap, learning while the sages were teaching her brother, as she states to Yudhishtira) does sound like a loving relationship. I do not think Drupada was her biological father.

5. Pandavas are revered for their "divine" birth NOW. Suyodhana openly mocks it at the time. There was no need for Panchali to have a matching story. She would've been mocked for claiming a fire birth.

6. MOST IMPORTANT POINT. Sexual fire is Prof. Bandhopadhyay's interpretation. KRISHNA DWAIPAYANA VYASA contradicts the good professor as MBH states over and over Agni is Angirasa. Vyasa doesn't say Agni is sex.

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If we disregard the Buddhist jatakas, Angirasa brahmana children would be the most likely probability for Panchali and Dhrishtadyumna.

Now, one possibility exists that the king of Kosala who died was an Angirasa. I'm still researching on that.

I mentioned the Krishna-Panchali connection. She was a child of his guru's clan, perhaps. But she definitely was the daughter (adopted or otherwise) of Sannati, who was Krishna's foster relative.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

@CS thanks for the article. Gives answer to a lot of thing. Specially to pandava panchali alliance. I always knew it was a mutually beneficial political alliance with key players being drapaud krishna panchali ved vyas pandavas along with kunti. Kind of explain why drapaudi was smiling when arjun hit the target or why was she silent at the potter house because plan was working perfectly 😎

Though this raises another question were Normal peasants were so deep in myths that they believed all this mythical propaganda so easily. ??

I think so they did. Because this was Dwapar Yug and they practiced absolute monarchy where king is like the god on earth.

Infact, people still believe Ashwathama and Vyasa are immortal and still alive. If you Google Ashwathama still alive? On google you will get some superb stories. 🤣

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

THEORY 1

1. Drupada didn't want simply a son. He wanted a son who could kill Drona, a brahmana. According to rules, only a brahmana could kill another brahmana. ie, he needed to adopt a brahmana boy who was exceptional in battle tactics and weaponry. DHrishtadyumna was said to have been born with armor and weaponry, skilled in his knowledge of battle/war.

2. Panchali probably came as package deal. If Dhrishtadyumna were an orphan, and Panchali were his sister/twin, he'd not going to leave her behind.

This is where the Agni Angirasa possibility comes in. Because Mahabharata states several times Angirasa is Agni.

In some oral Nepali versions of Mahabarata, Panchali leaves the Pandavas after war and goes on a pilgrimage of fire. ie, to her home with the Angirasas.

Since Ghora Angirasa was Krishna's guru according to Chandogya Unpanishad, this explains his connection to Panchali.

_____________________

THEORY 2

Shikhandi, I believe, was Amba's child. She is said to have left a "flower" at Panchal's doorstep. Panchal was her maternal family, so it stands to reason.

If you take that further, it is entirely possible Drupada could not have children and adopted Shikhandi first. When the king realized the boy was gay/trans, he wanted another son.

Combine this with THEORY 1, you have an answer.

_____________________

THEORY 3

There is a Buddhist jataka which bluntly states the king of Kashi (who was also king of Panchal as stated in other Buddhist jatakas) killed the king of Kosala (strangely, Amba's land, again). Kosala prince was an infant at the time and hidden. He was later found when he had the Kashi king's life at his mercy and decides to forgive him. Then the king of Kashi adopts the prince, the son of king of Kosala.

This is where things get interesting. The queen of Kosala was pregnant at the time of the Kasi-Kosala clash with her 2nd child. The victor, the king of Kashi married her and brings her home as he didn't have any children of his own.

A girl was born who they named KANHA. This girl marries the sons of Pandu.

Now, the jatakas call Panchali a *****, but their judgement of her morality aside, it is the only place I have seen Panchali's (and Dhrishtadyumna's) origins bluntly stated.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j5/j5029.htm

Back to Mahabharata. Asita, Nandagopa's brother, had to sons - Devala and Dhaumya. Yes, the Pandava priest. Devala had a scholarly daughter called Sannati who was married to Brahmadutta, the king of Panchal. Elsewhere, Bheeshma also calls the king of Panchal as Brahmadutta. My guess is it was a title.

So there you go, Panchali's father and mother.

Biological father - king of Kosala, adoptive father - king of Panchal/Kashi.

Mother - Sannati, the daughter of Devala, the niece of Nandagopa.

This would also explain Panchali's connection to Krishna WITH OR WITHOUT Buddhist jataka portion.

FYI, though Sannati would've technically been Krishna's niece, she was of Pandu's gen as Asita once proposed marriage to Satyavati before she married Shanthanu.😆 So Asita was Shanthanu's gen, Devala was Bheeshma's, Sannati was Pandu's. But technically, she was Krishna's foster niece😆

I'm not going searching through links for MBH parts. If you have CE in Kindle format, run a search😆.

_____________________

@CaptainSpark. I think you might be quoting Prof. Bandhopadhyay's theory. There are lots of holes in it.

1. Drupada is actually said to have paid the sages a lot of money. There was no reason to say it.

Say what? I am a little confused what you mean here 😆

2. The queen bluntly refused to go an participate.

3. Dhrishtadyumna was supposed to have trained under Drona. And at his birth, he was supposed to have been fully trained, so it occurred before the yajna.

Yes but how was Drona training him when he was clearly angry with Drupad? Yet he was teaching his son? Besides, I don't feel they were born at Yajna time because that makes the age disparity point here.

It is not likely that Drupada did not deploy a fully trained Dhrishtadyumna in the battle with the Pandavas.

4. Where was Drupada at the beginning of the exile? Only Dhrishtadyumna (maybe Shikhandi, too) shows up with Krishna. No parent on earth will sit comfortably at home if they hear such news. Unless of course they didn't care. Panchali's description of her father (sitting on her father's lap, learning while the sages were teaching her brother, as she states to Yudhishtira) does sound like a loving relationship. I do not think Drupada was her biological father.

If not biological, why is she said to have been born in Drupada's clan? Also what do you make of the Sanskrit words? This I checked a few Sanskrit books too, they same the same of the words tho.

5. Pandavas are revered for their "divine" birth NOW. Suyodhana openly mocks it at the time. There was no need for Panchali to have a matching story. She would've been mocked for claiming a fire birth.

Dury would mock anything they did no? Besides Pandavas were born, they didn't fall from heaven I guess. Draupadi is said to have emerged from the middle of a Yagya Vedi as fully grown!

6. MOST IMPORTANT POINT. Sexual fire is Prof. Bandhopadhya's interpretation. KRISHNA DWAIPAYANA VYASA contradicts the good professor as MBH states over and over Agni is Angirasa. Vyasa doesn't say Agni is sex.

Alright, but if she is born of Angirasa, that's an acceptable practice. Why would Drupad hide the same???

_____________________

If we disregard the Buddhist jatakas, Angirasa brahman children would be the most likely probability for Panchali and Dhrishtadyumna.

Now, one possibility exists that the king of Kosala who died was an Angirasa. I'm still researching on that.

I mentioned the Krishna-Panchali connection. She was a child of his guru's clan, perhaps. But she definitely was the daughter (adopted or otherwise) of Sannati, who was Krishna's foster relative.

My answers in bold 😊

I don't want to quote the entire thing.

1. Cash exchanging hands puts Drupada in a bad light. Yaja (the first sage) has harsh words in that section. Why would Drupada allow that story if it were simply a matter of making a story for Panchali.

3. There is a scene prior to swayamavar where Arjuna alone walks along a river or lake or something and spots a crying woman. He is later told she is Sri, slated to be Panchali. My guess is Arjuna actually did spot Panchali before her adoption.

My point was that Dhrishtadyumna and Panchali were adopted as adults.

When Drona trained Dhrishtadyumna, he wasn't Drupada's son yet.

4. Clan can mean to anyone of his relatives. AMBA was technically Drupada's clan

5. Agree Kauravas would mock anyone. But remember, they had majority support at every point. I assume, the larger number of people would follow what they said.

6. Mahabharata, in addition to being a kshatriya vs. kshatriya clash, was also a brahmana vs. brahmana clash. Aryavarta Chronicles got it absolutely correct that there would've been enormous hue and cry over an Angirasa daughter marrying a prince belonging to the Vasishta-Varuni group.

In addition to what I said before-

We must remember that what we have today is only an interpretation of what Vyasa apparently said. We must remember that we do not have direct speech from Vyasa. Vaishampayana is not the one who witnessed it. It is said that what he is saying is what Vyasa said. Now we really do not know for sure what he means by each word, thats the reason we are able to interpret.

If today we look at the text of Paradise Lost, I think we do know it was Milton's own words and hence, we know that we have his quotes to analyse. The epics are not direct quotes, infact it has gone through several layers of indirect speech. If Vyasa meant Angirasa or sex is subject to interpretation. Hence, we cannot negate either possibility.

Moreover,

1. Why would Drupad want to adopt in the first place? Firstly he had his children. Secondly, there's no reason for him to not train his own children to take his revenge.

2. If they were adopted, say they were adopted. There's nothing wrong in it. And if I accept that he wanted footage for Swayamvar or more popularity like @Pro interpreted, then too, how is it possible to hide this whole incident when he apparently adopted grown up children?

3. Important- draupadi is said to have born from the middle of tha yagya vedi. She is not said to have emerged from fire. So the words "Vedi" and "Madhya" is what needs interpretation. Not Agni.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

I don't want to quote the entire thing.

1. Cash exchanging hands puts Drupada in a bad light. Yaja (the first sage) has harsh words in that section. Why would Drupada allow that story if it were simply a matter of making a story for Panchali.

3. There is a scene prior to swayamavar where Arjuna alone walks along a river or lake or something and spots a crying woman. He is later told she is Sri, slated to be Panchali. My guess is Arjuna actually did spot Panchali before her adoption.

If he did actually spot Panchali how come he never mentions this later when he attends the Swayamvar? He would not recognize a woman with so much beauty?

My point was that Dhrishtadyumna and Panchali were adopted as adults.

@bold here- Is it possible to suddenly get two children out of nowhere and no body found out😆

When Drona trained Dhrishtadyumna, he wasn't Drupada's son yet.

4. Clan can mean to anyone of his relatives. AMBA was technically Drupada's clan

Then how is Angirasa Drupad's clan?

5. Agree Kauravas would mock anyone. But remember, they had majority support at every point. I assume, the larger number of people would follow what they said.

People believe divine theories even today though. I mean not related to MB but in general. At that point, not everyone had access to education either. That's the reason they believed everything Brahmans said. I don't see why they would not believe divine theories.

6. Mahabharata, in addition to being a kshatriya vs. kshatriya clash, was also a brahmana vs. brahmana clash. Aryavarta Chronicles got it absolutely correct that there would've been enormous hue and cry over an Angirasa daughter marrying a prince belonging to the Vasishta-Varuni group.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

In addition to what I said before-

We must remember that what we have today is only an interpretation of what Vyasa apparently said. We must remember that we do not have direct speech from Vyasa. Vaishampayana is not the one who witnessed it. It is said that what he is saying is what Vyasa said. Now we really do not know for sure what he means by each word, thats the reason we are able to interpret.

If today we look at the text of Paradise Lost, I think we do know it was Milton's own words and hence, we know that we have his quotes to analyse. The epics are not direct quotes, infact it has gone through several layers of indirect speech. If Vyasa meant Angirasa or sex is subject to interpretation. Hence, we cannot negate either possibility.

Moreover,

1. Why would Drupad want to adopt in the first place? Firstly he had his children. Secondly, there's no reason for him to not train his own children to take his revenge.

2. If they were adopted, say they were adopted. There's nothing wrong in it. And if I accept that he wanted footage for Swayamvar or more popularity like @Pro interpreted, then too, how is it possible to hide this whole incident when he apparently adopted grown up children?

3. Important- draupadi is said to have born from the middle of tha yagya vedi. She is not said to have emerged from fire. So the words "Vedi" and "Madhya" is what needs interpretation. Not Agni.

1. Like I said, his children couldn't kill Drona because Drona was a brahmana. If we go byB uddhist jatakas, Drupada's kids were all adopted. Even to this day, no man wants to have his fertility questioned. A king would not announce it. Even Pandu put out a cockamamie story about killing the sage.

2. Same as above

3. And there arose, after this from the centre of the sacrificial platform, a daughter also, called Panchali, who, blest with great good fortune, was exceedingly handsome.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01170.htm

The sacrificial platform is where the fire burns. Hence, the fire rumor. If that rumor is inaccurate, then the theory of yagya being sexual fire also vanishes.

Then, we're left with Buddhist jataka where she was the unborn child of king of Kosala.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Perhaps Arjuna did, perhaps he didn't The point was that she was already an adult. So was Dhrishtdyumna at adoption

People did find out. Hence the fire story.

Once Panchali was "born from fire" into Drupada's household, she was born into his clan, anyway. Or she could've been any one of his relatives. These kings intermarried a lot.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

1. Like I said, his children couldn't kill Drona because Drona was a brahmana. If we go byB uddhist jatakas, Drupada's kids were all adopted. Even to this day, no man wants to have his fertility questioned. A king would not announce it. Even Pandu put out a cockamamie story about killing the sage.

2. Same as above

Yes, I understand why you say Drupad won't say it. But my question is you suddenly get two grown up children and way they are your own from a yagya - this doesn't buy well. And if Dhrist was taught by Drona, many knew he wasn't Drupad's son from a yagya.

BTW Pandu bit, was it Pandu or was it Vaishampayana or Vyasa covering up for his son 🤣

3. And there arose, after this from the centre of the sacrificial platform, a daughter also, called Panchali, who, blest with great good fortune, was exceedingly handsome.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01170.htm

The sacrificial platform is where the fire burns. Hence, the fire rumor. If that rumor is inaccurate, then the theory of yagya being sexual fire also vanishes.

Yeah I mean I think what Mr Bandopadhyay means is she is never mentioned to be born of fire. So this Agni bit doesn't hold. Only Vedi here holds, not even a Yagya bit.

Then, we're left with Buddhist jataka where she was the unborn child of king of Kosala.

Also if she was adopted as a grown up how is she talking about her childhood in Vana Parva? It's possible if she was adopted at birth only

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Perhaps Arjuna did, perhaps he didn't The point was that she was already an adult. So was Dhrishtdyumna at adoption

People did find out. Hence the fire story.

Once Panchali was "born from fire" into Drupada's household, she was born into his clan, anyway. Or she could've been any one of his relatives. These kings intermarried a lot.

If Dhrist is already trained, then how can people believe he arose of fire? 😆