Are most kings just glorified criminals

souro thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 7 years ago
#1
Most so called 'great' kings achieved greatness by attacking unprovoked, annexing someone else's land, killing and enslaving thousands of people, ruining and looting entire cities and kingdoms. All of which in isolation even if perpetrated on one person, we view as crime. However, when done by kings, we view them as greats.

Are we all hypocrites in this matter or have we been conditioned this way by the rulers themselves. Are most kings just glorified criminals, or is what they did a necessary evil? And if it is necessary, where do we draw the line separating necessary from the unnecessary and just being pure evil?

Created

Last reply

Replies

14

Views

1.3k

Users

9

Likes

6

Frequent Posters

Angel-likeDevil thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail Trailblazer Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 7 years ago
#2
Nice topic Souro :)

One thing I am sure about is, history and it's study is like groping in the dark. I never fully trust it, even though I sometimes enjoy it at face-value. But to take it as an authentic account is something I cannot bring myself to do.

Another thing I am sure of is, no one, nothing in this existence is black or white. Somehow, somewhere, I have begun feeling like, it is not for us to judge whether someone/something was right or wrong. And here coming to history, we actually have no full account of their entire life, their deeds, their misdeeds. Somehow I find it hard to box people into 'evil', 'good'.. kind of like a Gandhian stance, their actions can be condemn-able but not the man :p


To explain further, I have no idea why we have to glorify or strike a person down.

History to me, is about -
- knowing about the past as much as you can
- cherishing what can be on a subjective level
- learning from the mistakes or errors committed by our fellow creatures
- learning also helps us incorporate something into our present that could help improve quality of life - in the enjoyment of arts, in administration and polity, in lifestyle, the scope is for us to imagine.
- offers a peak into human psyche


It's really impossible to say if all those people in the past and their actions were a necessary evil or pure evil, because not only do we not have full account but I really believe that no event can be isolated and viewed in separation.. because I think something is always linked to another directly or indirectly in multiple ways, just as any event could have taken multiple other paths.. and we're here today, humans did come a long way..

.. I mean, if you feel great about a historical account, then it's really your feeling, it doesn't mean that we are in some way certifying that event as deserving of our positive emotions, because again, I believe no event is so uni-dimensional, it has many facets, it is a consequence of many things knowable and unknowable.

Same with negative accounts of historical events or figures - we have no way of cross-checking them, and, there's no compulsion that we ought to condemn them, just as there's no compulsion that we ought to hold them as glorious.

And by our glorification, or condemnation or nonchalance, the historical accounts and our learning of the history isn't going to alter. We still have to learn, look into our pasts, and really take whatever we can or must.

I'd much rather adopt an indifferent view of things, and if my heart responds to something it does, I cannot help it, but I always feel my glorification or condemnation of a spectacle of the past isn't going to alter anything.

This trend of boxing people, things, events into 'good', 'bad', really certifying them needs to stop, IMHO. Why is there any need to validate or invalidate something (not directed at you, Souro, speaking in general)
Edited by Angel-likeDevil - 7 years ago
nigahen thumbnail
7th Anniversary Thumbnail Voyager Thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
#3
On school in the third grade or something, a teacher once told us that India is the only country that never proactively attacked another country. We only defended ourselves. I remember I was pissed off that time that when we were so strong we should have attacked others and perhaps wouldnt have become slaves for so long.
But we grow and our opinions change. Now I feel it's something to be proud of. That's not to say that kingdoms within India didnt attack each other. Even from slightly more ancient times, we know that the Cholas and Pandyas were always attacking the Cheras.

What is a king really and what is a king supposed to do? Stories from lore regale us with tales of just and righteous kings where everyone was happy. The king decided on all policy, admin matters alongwith being the ultimate purveyor of justice for the aggrieved persons.

He was the one who held the army and protected the denizens from external aggressors.
I'm getting tired, maybe I will write more on this later. I believe this calls for an evaluation of societies, how societies define morals, and different forms of governance.

My take on whether kings were glorified criminals-well, it depends. Of course those who looted and plundered and raped millions are several degrees above criminals, literal devils on earth. But other kings who may have attacked another kingdom and here, in fact, throughout I'm thinking from Indian history POV., may have had reasons for doing so. Like a famine in their kingdom or no rivers in their land for eg. In that case, they cannot be called criminals per se esp if they dont do mass killlings, raping and plundering, because they were acting to save and protect their own people. So there's a good intention behind their actions at least.
I mean what form of govt is there that isnt criminal?
The west want to maintain their way of life and their basically unsustainable standards of living driven by unbridled consumerism by bombing other countries just because the rulers of said countries wont sell their oil or gas or whatever to them for peanuts. Or to drive hard bargains in other areas.
And why only that. We Indians dont think twice before asking for more and more development. And really what does that entail? Taking away farmers' lands so the rich could own 3-4 homes as investment even though those houses will lie empty most of the time, building ever widening 6-8 laned roads in the name of development again taking away precious farmlands, displacing tribals from their forests for mining minerals that pollute the water etc, and what do they get in return-jobs as building watchmen in cities bursting at their seams?

So what system is not criminal I ask? Is it communism that's led to the biggest genocides on the planet? What system I ask?

Edited by nigahen - 7 years ago
Padfoot_Prongs thumbnail
14th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 7 years ago
#4
Depends when and where you are reading it. It is often said History is written by victors most of the time. Congress won and wrote all our history from its own perspective and how it will affect them. So did many other kings.
At that time, resources were limited so to expend their resources, kings are always ready to go for war, specially kings with big army. India has so much fertile land and so many rivers. at that time, these two were the only resources that were important. So yes they went for war whenever they could.


There is also a thing said about war in ancient time that most of the wars only affected upper strata of society. Laborers and farmers were unaffected most of the time as they have to pay same amount of tax to whoever was the king at that time.

At that time, anyone winning the war was considered great. No one was praised for peace.


Shivaji is worshiped in Maharashtra where as in History he was just a looter. His followers- Marathas looted everyone around them. That was the main reason they lost in 3rd war of Panipat as no one wanted to help them.

Polyamory was legal at that time, no one said anything about that. Now we frown upon that. Time to time, perception changes about things.
TotalBetty thumbnail
11th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 7 years ago
#5

Originally posted by: nigahen

On school in the third grade or something, a teacher once told us that India is the only country that never proactively attacked another country. We only defended ourselves. I remember I was pissed off that time that when we were so strong we should have attacked others and perhaps wouldnt have become slaves for so long.

But we grow and our opinions change. Now I feel it's something to be proud of. That's not to say that kingdoms within India didnt attack each other. Even from slightly more ancient times, we know that the Cholas and Pandyas were always attacking the Cheras.

What is a king really and what is a king supposed to do? Stories from lore regale us with tales of just and righteous kings where everyone was happy. The king decided on all policy, admin matters alongwith being the ultimate purveyor of justice for the aggrieved persons.

He was the one who held the army and protected the denizens from external aggressors.
I'm getting tired, maybe I will write more on this later. I believe this calls for an evaluation of societies, how societies define morals, and different forms of governance.

My take on whether kings were glorified criminals-well, it depends. Of course those who looted and plundered and raped millions are several degrees above criminals, literal devils on earth. But other kings who may have attacked another kingdom and here, in fact, throughout I'm thinking from Indian history POV., may have had reasons for doing so. Like a famine in their kingdom or no rivers in their land for eg. In that case, they cannot be called criminals per se esp if they dont do mass killlings, raping and plundering, because they were acting to save and protect their own people. So there's a good intention behind their actions at least.
I mean what form of govt is there that isnt criminal?
The west want to maintain their way of life and their basically unsustainable standards of living driven by unbridled consumerism by bombing other countries just because the rulers of said countries wont sell their oil or gas or whatever to them for peanuts. Or to drive hard bargains in other areas.
And why only that. We Indians dont think twice before asking for more and more development. And really what does that entail? Taking away farmers' lands so the rich could own 3-4 homes as investment even though those houses will lie empty most of the time, building ever widening 6-8 laned roads in the name of development again taking away precious farmlands, displacing tribals from their forests for mining minerals that pollute the water etc, and what do they get in return-jobs as building watchmen in cities bursting at their seams?

So what system is not criminal I ask? Is it communism that's led to the biggest genocides on the planet? What system I ask?


Bold - Traveling to Foreign countries .i.e crossing sea was forbidden in Hinduism

Could that be the reason, Indian kings didn't try to conquer other countries?


And yes Communism has caused more genocide
More than 100 million people killed in less than 100 years
qwertyesque thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
#6
its in human nature to take someone else's property or woman or food or resources by force. Civilizations have been surviving by somehow curtailing these instincts to a large extent. The OPs dilemma is similar to killing someone on main street for personal gain v/s killing another person across the border as a part of war... so no the kings aren't criminals and if they have been good it has lead to prosperity of that kingdom...its a form of government called Autocracy... its fundamental of kings expectations to expand his rule and control... Btw history has several instances of annexors..for land and control... and for getting the women which has led to destroyed civilizations... All this is normal behavior.. for the King based on the times they lived in...Great leaders are born and they just rise by acceptance and support... one can't aspire to be a great leader... good leader yes... but not a great leader! So, there is a history of great kings and warriors and people who should be respected for what they were..and they cant be called criminals..afaik...
Edited by qwertyesque - 7 years ago
-Believe- thumbnail
20th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 7 years ago
#7

Originally posted by: souro

Most so called 'great' kings achieved greatness by attacking unprovoked, annexing someone else's land, killing and enslaving thousands of people, ruining and looting entire cities and kingdoms. All of which in isolation even if perpetrated on one person, we view as crime. However, when done by kings, we view them as greats.

Are we all hypocrites in this matter or have we been conditioned this way by the rulers themselves. Are most kings just glorified criminals, or is what they did a necessary evil? And if it is necessary, where do we draw the line separating necessary from the unnecessary and just being pure evil?



Great leaders/King born with PR & Marketing peoples...😊

Edited by -Believe- - 7 years ago
nigahen thumbnail
7th Anniversary Thumbnail Voyager Thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
#8

Originally posted by: BettyA1


Bold - Traveling to Foreign countries .i.e crossing sea was forbidden in Hinduism

Could that be the reason, Indian kings didn't try to conquer other countries?


And yes Communism has caused more genocide
More than 100 million people killed in less than 100 years

I dont know where this idea came from but it's not true you know?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations
TotalBetty thumbnail
11th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 7 years ago
#9

Originally posted by: nigahen


I dont know where this idea came from but it's not true you know?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations




Thanks for the link. Didn't read the whole article but read first few paras and it mentions trade between ancient Roman Empire and the Tamil kingdom.

Maybe culturally Tamil Kingdom & Tamils were much different then... I read that it was not uncommon for Tamil traders (regular people not kings) to travel via sea to other countries for business purposes

Is there any proof that any kingdom in other parts of India did trades or that people travelled abroad?

BLUE - I could be wrong but don't think this statement is true bcz I've heard and read many incidents about Kala Paani

Edited by BettyA1 - 7 years ago
1152773 thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago
#10
Well I did hear tons of horror stories about them and King Henry happens to be one of them!

Related Topics

Top

Stay Connected with IndiaForums!

Be the first to know about the latest news, updates, and exclusive content.

Add to Home Screen!

Install this web app on your iPhone for the best experience. It's easy, just tap and then "Add to Home Screen".