How stupid can this get?:Mod note pg19 - Page 12

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Kalapi thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Dear Janhvi, I am getting confused with argument and counter an argument that is going on so I will just summarize what I particularly feel and what I know from my experience.

A child out of wedlock is a true victim. In countries like India, children who are born of such union are ridiculed to the extent that they end up confused and angry. The constant ridicule and ostracization lead them into either a life of crime or depression and/or suicide, or might make them a pimp. A girl, who had the misfortune of being left pregnant for whatever reason, is not looked upon as a role model and is often called names ranging from loose character to a wh**e. People tend to think these girls have questionable virtues and can be taken for granted and can have quick sex with them, as it is assumed that they too are looking for that quick pleasure and not any serious commitment. This happens in any economical levels but this ostracization is much more acute in the middle class for to value their respect and their up bring the most. Besides, they do not have the extra money to cover up their mistake easily and are left at the mercy of others. I am not necessarily talking about Western societies (although I have mentioned examples, that I have myself seen that life isn't easy for unwed moms anywhere). In India, this is much more acute. If you go into the Middle East, these unwed moms will probably be stoned to dead.

In case of Purvi, the mere fact that she had sex with a man and then forced that him to marry her sister, isn't something to applaud in my opinion ' and the resulting child out of wedlock ' faces a lifelong ridicule of an irresponsible act of 2 adult. Imagine what this girl child faces growing up ' she will be ridiculed and considered having questionable moral value as well. As someone said, did anyone ask this child, if this is what he/she wanted to be at the receiving ' did anyone prepare this child of the life of ridicule or the constant uphill battle that she will face to establish that she isn't her mother's daughter as far as her sexuality is considered ' I call her poor child, she will be labeled quickly as a s**t herself even when she isn't at fault. And it will always be the onus on her to prove that she is of a good moral character. In fact, before she can even enjoy her childhood, all the gossip, the eyeing and the secret smile will dampen her spirit, force her into adulthood and leave a permanent scare on herself that can never be erased.

As for Purvi didn't have an easy life, why I have to disagree. She really had it very easy. She faced not a single gossip, not a single questioning eye, not an open accusation for being a s**t, or inquisitive and exploring hands or men, wanting a quick sex, for they assume she was ready to provide that sort of pleasure. Rather, she got a respected life of a renowned doctor's wife, who loved her so much that he pressed her feet, hand her medicines and put kalatikka ' wish we had Onirs in real life.

Now, there are many marriages in real life too, that are based on some sort of compromise. Now, even these people who are in such compromised marriages are engaged in sex, and then probably they too (And in this case the woman) aren't more than a glorified prostitute. Even then, most societies still don't consider it as pristitution. Now, if this wife decides to walk out of the marriage (where she had sex everyday of her life) that is her decision ' no one will say, she was immoral. Even if a woman planned to have sex and walks out of the marriage to get a space between her and her hubby ' that act isn't considered immoral. Here Ovi just wants to go away from Arjun. Arjun is free to do anything he wish/want. Ovi's walking out isn't effecting anyone In fact, Ovi says that Arjun could find her easily if he wants ' but she hopes that he doesn't for she wants the time to self-realize/heal. To you, since Ovi's leaving was premeditated and then she had sex ' that makes it wrong. I personally, do not consider it wrong ' for she is the legal wife, she didn't pre-mediate the sex itself, she stayed to have a good time with Arjun for a lasting memory that didn't include the plan of sex, she didn't initiate the act and much importantly ' it wasn't anything unnatural about in in reality' couple do get intimate under such circumstances for there is the essence of familiarity in this equation ' and they might have sex like this one before too under a similar circumstance of rain and warmth. And then , to the society at large, this sex will not be considered immoral and if a child result from such an union ' will not be considered illegitimate and ridiculed. As I said, this isn't something I invented ' this is what has been done for a long time now.

Now the question is whether Arovi love is mutual. To me it is. I think I have said this before; it is possible for a man to love 2 women at the same time. So, I think Arjun did love Ovi and Ovi returned that love. Ovi was committed to the relationship, but to me Arjun's was questionable, but that love was there. So, since we both agree love isn't enough and something more needed ' I think that something more is what Arjun need to give to their marriage namely - commitment and his respecting his wife and not taking her for granted. This is what Ovi needs to get back to her relationship with Arjun, and I find it not wrong in wanting that from him. It is for Arjun to decide what he wants ' whether he wants to manao his wifi and convince her that he too is committed, both heart and soul in this relationship. Let us wait and see what Cvs has in store for us before jumping to any conclusion. But, as of now, the onus is on Arjun to choose what he wants, and how he wants all his relations to work, namely with Ovi and with Pari. And whatever his decision is, he now should live by it. Btw, I do not believe that Ovi's problem is the baby, but what the baby represent. Now, if Arjun convinces her that he truly loves Ovi, who knows how far Ovi might go to accept Arjun, with all his baggage, but this time around, to me the wooing has to be Arjun's and he has to convince Ovi that he is truly committed.

Anyway, am sure we will not agree, but that Is all I have to say and how I see this serial and hopefully, I am out of this discussion, for I think I have said it all.

Edited by Kalapi - 12 years ago
pallavi25 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
All I can say is "Zamana badal gaya" and especially India bhi Badal gaya" so above arguments do not hold true!
In most Indian societies, at least where I come from, sex before marriage, illegitimate babies are not that shocking anymore. Morals are loosening up or people are becoming more casual abt sex like the West.
I dont approve or condemn them, just accept that society changes with time!
The above arguments are made on the basis of knowledge of perhaps 20-25 yrs ago, but now its a very different picture. And Im talking confidently abt this because I go to India almost every year, there are divorces, extramarital affairs, out of wedlock babies in our own extended families. Yes, people gossip abt them, criticize them but then move on with their lives.
AUR BHI GHAM HAIN ZAMANEY MEIN MOHABBAT KE SIVA! 😃

PS: Maidservants cases are cited from recent visits as well!
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
I now live in Pune, and thus have continuous and up to date experience of all this in Maharashtra, plus I visit Chennai often.

From what I saw as recently as last November, our Tamil maidservants still are mostly a cross between the reigning Empress of Tamil Nadu, Jayalalitha, and Fearless Nadia. They have lost none of their spunk since the long off days when I was a school kid, and their vocabulary for abuse is as formidable as it was. All this delights me. The terminally oppressed and abandoned lot must of course also exist, but they are by no means 100%. In any case,not in Tamil Nadu,nor in Maharashtra.. That should be cause enough for jubilation.

We have not yet had any out of wedlock babies in our extended family, so I am unable to report on that, and I hope it stays that way!

Shyamala B,Cowsik

Originally posted by: pallavi25

All I can say is "Zamana badal gaya" and especially India bhi Badal gaya" so above arguments do not hold true!

In most Indian societies, at least where I come from, sex before marriage, illegitimate babies are not that shocking anymore. Morals are loosening up or people are becoming more casual abt sex like the West.
I dont approve or condemn them, just accept that society changes with time!
The above arguments are made on the basis of knowledge of perhaps 20-25 yrs ago, but now its a very different picture. And Im talking confidently abt this because I go to India almost every year, there are divorces, extramarital affairs, out of wedlock babies in our own extended families. Yes, people gossip abt them, criticize them but then move on with their lives.
AUR BHI GHAM HAIN ZAMANEY MEIN MOHABBAT KE SIVA! 😃

PS: Maidservants cases are cited from recent visits as well!

Kalapi thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Pallavi, my dear, if I might ask you (am curious and absolutely you don't have to answer me back, if you don't want to), where in India are you from, my guess Bengal, but I might be absolutely wrong on that??
Thanks in advance...
Edited by Kalapi - 12 years ago
pesi11 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: pallavi25

All I can say is "Zamana badal gaya" and especially India bhi Badal gaya" so above arguments do not hold true!

In most Indian societies, at least where I come from, sex before marriage, illegitimate babies are not that shocking anymore. Morals are loosening up or people are becoming more casual abt sex like the West.
I dont approve or condemn them, just accept that society changes with time!
The above arguments are made on the basis of knowledge of perhaps 20-25 yrs ago, but now its a very different picture. And Im talking confidently abt this because I go to India almost every year, there are divorces, extramarital affairs, out of wedlock babies in our own extended families. Yes, people gossip abt them, criticize them but then move on with their lives.
AUR BHI GHAM HAIN ZAMANEY MEIN MOHABBAT KE SIVA! 😃

PS: Maidservants cases are cited from recent visits as well!


@bold
i never seen or heard about anybody having illegitimate child in my entire life so far ...sorry to say..but the truth is ppl do have pre martial sex in india..but trust me no one can proudly say it as it is totally unacceptable in our society ..i really do not know which place u were talking abt that 'zamana badal gaya' ... i would be happy to know if india changed to this level whr ppl can accept pre martial sex and illegitimate babies 😆😆

i still remember , an actress of tamil nadu announced " that pre martial sex is not a sin ...it should welcomed" .. ppl sued her for saying ti against our culture 😆😆

Edited by pesi11 - 12 years ago
samek thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Pre-martial sex is wrong period. No two ways about it. In a typical middle class maharstrain family (which purvi belongs too) it's a SIN.

It a worst sin for Purvi because her mother Archana has been shouting at the top of her lungs about SANSKAAR AND HER PARVARISH.

Now I don't know what the modern world is all about but definitely Archana did not give Purvi the SANSKAAR of modern world. And she was extremely proud about it and she has said many times that " mujhe Purvi pe garv hai, vishwaas hai, meri Purvi kabhi galat naahi ho sakti" . S I just want to wait and see how she gets up form her coma and reacts to this. Because in the current scenario either Archana can be wrong or Purvi can be wrong. CVs cannot justify both of them being right.

My opinion strictly on the Indian values and culture - well I belong to a maharstrain family and I have not yet seen babies out of wedlocks happening in my family, friends or even extended family. Things do happen in India. But I have not seen anyone being proud of it or have accepted it with grace. It's a huge SIN in a maharstrain culture and the parents would die of shame or relocate some place where no one should know them not to say that they would have abandon the child long long back doesn't matter if the girl was supposed to get married to that person or was in deeply love with him. Absolutely no excuse.
pari87 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: pallavi25

All I can say is "Zamana badal gaya" and especially India bhi Badal gaya" so above arguments do not hold true!

In most Indian societies, at least where I come from, sex before marriage, illegitimate babies are not that shocking anymore. Morals are loosening up or people are becoming more casual abt sex like the West.
I dont approve or condemn them, just accept that society changes with time!
The above arguments are made on the basis of knowledge of perhaps 20-25 yrs ago, but now its a very different picture. And Im talking confidently abt this because I go to India almost every year, there are divorces, extramarital affairs, out of wedlock babies in our own extended families. Yes, people gossip abt them, criticize them but then move on with their lives.
AUR BHI GHAM HAIN ZAMANEY MEIN MOHABBAT KE SIVA! 😃

PS: Maidservants cases are cited from recent visits as well!


Zamaana humesha badlega, but because the society norms have been carried on since our ancestors, some things will never change, because your grandmom will pass it on to your mom and so on so forth...

I have lived in India all my life, except for the past 4 years here, especially growing up as a teenager, as college going girl and even a young adult...So I also know how things are back home...It is pretty common for pre-marital sex to happen, but there is ample awareness of protection and women who are in that position with boyfriends/lovers/fiances are a little smarter than purvi at knowing the consequences of their actions...

People everywhere in India yet, and I come from a regular indian family, even though my parents are pretty broad minded about a lot of things, will always hold pre-marital sex as an irresonsible act. Nobody glorifies it and nobody is OK with it, especially parents and families,. YEs, youngsters indulge in it, because it is a certain peer pressure even in india now, a little bit of recklessness as youngsters that is attractive and simply, the entire social media and movie/Television frenzy that makes all these things seem way more common than they are...PR glorifies Arjun-Purvi's pre-marital sex as some pyaar ki nishaani and all youth on this forum find that oh so tantalizing, but actually, it was simply an irresponsible stupid lack of better judgement...one more night would not have killed them..and even if they do it, protection and pill, why would they not take that into consideration? And even if they did not think they would need it, why give up the loverboy like candy so easily when you know there is that 0.01 % chance of carrying his baby and after being THAT intimate with a guy?

I have friends who come from very broad minded families, where mom knows about the boyfriend, where boyfriends comes home easily for dinner with dad, and there is no hint of marriage on the cards, but the parents are cool. But I'll tell you this too, that moms have told their daughter not to have pre-marital sex as that is out of boundaries. Infact, one of the reasons they are so chill about the boyfriend is that, it is better they know and keep them in front of their eyes and talk openly with their child about it, rather than chupke se, daughter doing it all behind her back...This is reality..Most moms and dads are still not cool with that idea, no matter what...

So, even though you claim you go to India every year, I have lived there through those crucial youngster days before getting married and only been here 4 years, out of which I still do go every year, and I can tlel you, that the youngsters mindsets have changed and become easy to mould, but adults and consequences of pre-marital sex and the resultant babies are still very much the same...People gossip and people talk and they do not move on...those girls will ALWAYS have an impossible time finding a suitable groom in arranged marriage...Like Purvi. girls in India are not that luck to find an Onir to take them in and that is the reality today..People in India still consider rape which is heinous to say best, as the girls fault...tune in to the news and hear the ministers and the common man talking about how girl must have provoked him to rape her..that is the cruel mindset women face...so for girls who knowingly and willingly do pre-marital sex with boyfriend.lover and then do not get married to that man and their secret is out, you can only imagine what is said about those women by these very common men in India.


Kalapi thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: sashashyam

I
We have not yet had any out of wedlock babies in our extended family, so I am unable to report on that, and I hope it stays that way!

Shyamala B,Cowsik

[

Me too, Shymala dear, and I am happy to report that I am yet to see out of wedlock babies, and I too, hope that it stays that way😃, so my curiosity which India we are talking about???😔
pari87 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: samek

Pre-martial sex is wrong period. No two ways about it. In a typical middle class maharstrain family (which purvi belongs too) it's a SIN.


It a worst sin for Purvi because her mother Archana has been shouting at the top of her lungs about SANSKAAR AND HER PARVARISH.

Now I don't know what the modern world is all about but definitely Archana did not give Purvi the SANSKAAR of modern world. And she was extremely proud about it and she has said many times that " mujhe Purvi pe garv hai, vishwaas hai, meri Purvi kabhi galat naahi ho sakti" . S I just want to wait and see how she gets up form her coma and reacts to this. Because in the current scenario either Archana can be wrong or Purvi can be wrong. CVs cannot justify both of them being right.

My opinion strictly on the Indian values and culture - well I belong to a maharstrain family and I have not yet seen babies out of wedlocks happening in my family, friends or even extended family. Things do happen in India. But I have not seen anyone being proud of it or have accepted it with grace. It's a huge SIN in a maharstrain culture and the parents would die of shame or relocate some place where no one should know them not to say that they would have abandon the child long long back doesn't matter if the girl was supposed to get married to that person or was in deeply love with him. Absolutely no excuse.


samek, so right on archana and her parvarish...

She had slapped purvi on seeing that tiny MMS clip when it was only presumed that they were kissing...Pre-marital sex was never a sanskaar she had given purvi...

This is why I condemn purvi so much...all nonsensical talk about sanskaars and parvarsih and judging punni, but then khud pe aaya toh, she was doing tyaag of herself to arjun apparently..!! LOL..
Not_a_fan thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Shyamala Aunty,

Agree with each and every one of your brilliantly written posts. I'm in my twenties and have lived all my life in Hyderabad, which is a metro in everything but name. I consider my family quite modern in thinking. My mom makes coffee for our maid servant daily, and drinks coffee with her. She talks to her, and her family about everything happening in our lives and in their lives. She took care of a part of her expenses when her daughter recently got married. It's not just my mom, everyone in my family and even my friends family are very fair-minded and modern in their thinking in every way. Not just in being kind to those having less money than them, but in making sure that all the children are educated and independent, supporting us in whatever we choose to do with our lives, in finding ourselves. But they would not be happy if I wore Western outfits. It was always fully covered from head to toe, and it is only after we came to the US that we even started wearing jeans. It's a little infuriating sometimes when mom gets worried about me being out late with friends, but I understand her concern. If anybody in my family or any of my friends' or relatives family came to know that one of us had pre-marital relations even with our to-be partners, there would be hell to pay. In fact, I was the first one to have a love marriage in my pretty forward-thinking family. Zamaana may have changed, with both girls and boys being more lax about sexual relationships. But it still is done without knowledge of parents or family, because it will never be condoned. In the West, while parents are unhappy about the many relationships of their children, they expect it because that's how the culture is. It's the norm, and part of it stems from the fact that kids in the West become independent right after school earning their bread and living out of home. In India, it hasn't reached that stage yet and it will be a long time before it will, if ever. Because in India, living together with family is still the norm; in a majority of cases, even after marriage.

About the classes, I don't believe in them and think everybody is equal. But there's no denying they exist, it is simply a fact. I agree with you and Kalapi, that both the poorest and the richest classes are outside normal societal rules because they're a minority and it's difficult to integrate them with the middle class which makes up 90% of the population. Marrying into either extreme for anyone apart from the same class is so difficult, it's near impossible. So, there's no mixing apart from social relations. Even though my family and our other friends and relatives have very close social relations with people from both the very rich and the very poor classes, none of us would even think of marrying into either of these classes. Not even to the super rich class, because they like being on equal footing with family and relations.

I've seen both cases where the men or the women are dominant in the lower classes; it depends on the women really. Some have the spunk to make it on their own so they leave like Shyamala aunty said, some don't and suffer. Since they don't care about rules or the laws, it's simply a matter of deciding if they want to leave or stay and doing it. The middle class has not enough money to not care about the rules, their anchor is their moral code or principles. Their honor, their sanskaars are most important to them, and that is what they are recognized by in society. if a family loses its honor, it loses its place in society. That's why what purvi did is wrong in the eyes of society and her family. It doesn't matter that manav is super rich, they still live in the chawl and since their social interactions are with the lower middle class, the middle class rules apply to them.
Edited by sowmya_jairam - 12 years ago

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