~| Whatever you want to argue about - 2 |~ - Page 32

Originally posted by: davis56

I guess that was me.

I asked it to chiii because of her view of krishna being a human.

I was just curious other than that there's no reason for that question

I am aware that thinking practically and scientifically does not indicate one's lack of belief in God.

Oh ok. 😆 Sorry, I get my back up about that question because I've been asked that quite a bit. I believe in God because of personal experience. But I don't believe Krishna was God. I respect those that do and try not to engage them because faith by definition is beyond reason. Now, if someone responds to me and insists divinity excused all, I so definitely engage 😆. An ex: someone told me today Arjuna having sex with Ulupi was his dharmic/religious duty in spite of brahmacharya vow because she threatened suicide otherwise 😆. I mean, c'mon! Yes, she did threaten it, but he was under no obligation to oblige. That, too, to bondage.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

That was the problem Krishna had was Lack of support for him.

Ugrasena and Kansa were legitimate rulers.

Ugrasena came on the throne with popular support from all the tribes.

Shurasena was removed after he lost support of everyone. Leaders of other tribes (Andhaka, Bhoja) Leaders of his own tribes (Vrishnis like Satrajit and Akrura) as well as citizens.

And after him Kansa. Who till Narada did the false propaganda was everyone's favourite. And many people refused to believe that propaganda

In Krishna's lifetime not many actually believed that Kansa or Jarasand or Narkasur or Banasur or Shishupal or Duryodhan were bad guys.

It was a fight for throne as far as everyone was concerned. And people sided either with their relatives or those who they thought served their self interest better.

Its around Parikshit's and Janmejaya / Vajra's time the deification started. Whitewashing of Krishna as God to so that everything he did became divine will and anyone opposing him became evil. Rakshasa and Asura became a label for evil.

Parikshit and JJ aligned with Vaishnavas and Krishna became Vishnu avatar. Arjun became a Nara avatar. Basically avatar of another vishnu avatar. Till then everyone worshipped Shiva and Devi. Including Krishna and Pandavas. But after Vaishnava gained royal patronage. All Shiva worshippers and those opposed to Krishna became suddenly avatar of an asur. All rakshasa refused to worship Vishnu. They were mostly Devi devotees. So they became evil, propaganda started that they all were bad guys by default.

This had started before Krishna's time. But it gained influence with him. His adoption of Vishnu symbols was one such strategy. And Parikshit JJ made a cult.out of it.

Classic example being Ghatothkach. That guy had never done one bad thing in his life. Other than refusing Vishnu worship. Krishna actually says the truth that at somepoint he would have had to kill Ghatothkach if he had not died for Arjun in the war, because he was persecuting Brahamans. He never did that. He just refused any patronage for vishnu worship in his teritory that is all. Vaishnavas were chased out from his area of influence.

He needed Arjun as a warrior and Yudhishtir atleast till Rajasuya as an acceptable face to gain a coalition that he would take over at a later date when he got rid of his enemies.

Bur Yudhi was never a guy he wanted to be emperor. He was at the most a throne warmer for Krishna

Not sure about others but Kansa was definitely not a bad guy, forget anything else even in the scriptures he didn't do anything bad till Akashwani and even after that he was ready to spare the elder children until Narad guided him about cyclic nature. He spared Yogmaya when he realized this wasn't the child he was looking for

It's like whatever he did was in self defense. I don't understand why is he considered evil

About Jarasangh, he had killed a few kings even after they had accepted his dominance, this was an evil act

Narkasur was abducting girls

Shishupal was someone who molested family n married women

Duryodhan till DyutSabha I don't consider huge crimes, probably he was trying to kill Pandavas but that's what kings n Princes did. Definitely Pandavas would have planned too, just we never got to know about it. Post DyutSabha obviously no excuse

@Bold when does he say this?

Aside were not most Vedic followers Vishnu upasaks? Since most of them here were Vedic people wouldn't they be inclined towards Vishnu as it is?

Wanted to discuss on your opinion about the Dury Dhritrashtra convo after Rajsuya celebration

Dury clearly states that the entire country is under Yudhishtir's suzarainty, now if that was just a sovereignty why did Dury say so? There has to be something with Yudhishtir which Duryodhan lacked which resulted in his jealousy?

What do you think about Duryodhan's statement

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

There is a thing called Snatak and then a Stanakottar.

Weren't Bheem and Duryodhan trained by Drona? Didn't they go to learn from Balram? Karna to Parashuram? Drona was trained by Bharadwaj rishi didn't he go to Parashuram?

Dhristhdhyum was not just someone who needed to be skilled but also someone who was ready to do a Brahmhatya

Twins are who are born at a time not who are born together. Nakul Sahdev were born together and were hence twins but they were born as infants so had same age.

As per the epic Dhristhdhyum and Draupadi were born together at a time from the fire so were twins. But they were adults and definitely not at the same stage of age

@HearMeRoar said that Dristadumya was trained warrior and Vyasa/Krishna put condition of adopting Draupadi and her marriage to Yudi to get Dristadumya

That’s why I said when Dristadumya was such a good warrior that Drupad was arm twisted into adopting Draupadi and getting her married to Yudi, why did he send him to Drona?

Text says Draupadi and Dristadumya were born out of sacrifice, I remember @Chilli’s theory about Yagya to kill A Brahmana, I believe Draupadi and Dristadumya were Drupad’a kids only but Drupad wanted a son to kill Drona, his words indicate towards this only -

There is no man on earth who can withstand the terrible power of his weapons. Like a blazing fire that has been fed with sacrificial offerings, Drona’s Brahmana powers consume every Kshatriya power in battle. Though his Brahmana powers are combined with Kshatriya powers, your Brahmana powers are superior to his. I am inferior because I only possess Kshatriya powers. Give me your Brahmana powers. I have now found you, whose Brahmana powers are superior to Drona’s. O Yaja! Perform the sacrifice so that I obtain a son who will be invincible and can kill Drona. I will

give you ten crore24 cows.”

Vyasa and Krishna aren’t mentioned anywhere during their birth/adoption

They are not called by any other name than son of Drupad, Son of Prishata, Sister of Prishata’s son, Draupadi, Panchali

If they were adopted then still no mention of Krishna or Vyasa

Draupadi is called Yajnaseni, I could find only this connection between “Yaja” and her

They are called twins, It’s not related to them coming out of fire, as it is stated Drupad got them through sacrifice when they mention them as Twins


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There’s too much guessing and little to no text involved to support this theory, so I don’t support it till I see something very authentic

@Nora. Some of what we are saying is analysis. That part was made very clear.

That Vyasa was involved in the adoption os pretty clear by all the nonsense stories he later feeds Drupada. How would Vyasa know so much detail about a girl he didn't know before? That he arranged the alliance is actually stated in text. I'm not sure how much evidence you need for it.

Re: Krishna. I already stated my reasons for believing he was involved. Add to that the fact not a single Yadava tried his luck in swayamvara should tell you they knew she was meant for someone else.

Dhrishtadyumna was a trained warrior. The same scene actually says Drona was surprised how much already knew.

Yaar as per the epic they were born together. The ones born together are twins.

If there is an adult birth there is no reason for the twins to be in same age.

If they were Drupad's kids then why not mention in directly? Why this Agni birth?

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Oh ok. 😆 Sorry, I get my back up about that question because I've been asked that quite a bit. I believe in God because of personal experience. But I don't believe Krishna was God. I respect those that do and try not to engage them because faith by definition is beyond reason. Now, if someone responds to me and insists divinity excused all, I so definitely engage 😆. An ex: someone told me today Arjuna having sex with Ulupi was his dharmic/religious duty in spite of brahmacharya vow because she threatened suicide otherwise 😆. I mean, c'mon! Yes, she did threaten it, but he was under no obligation to oblige. That, too, to bondage.

It's completely fine. I can see why you believe krishna isn't a god and I respect that. People are entitled to their own opinions and when it comes to god and faith people devlope their beliefs according to their own experiences which is actually how it should be rather than blindly believing what is being told to them.

Even I get annoyed when people use divinity as an excuse for the actions of a character or to whitewash them, sometimes people really need just to use their common sense.

Re: Dhrishtadyumna being educated by Drona.

Was the old rishi crazy to educate the same boy adopted to kill him?

Nothing suggests Drona was that suicidal.

I believe Dhrishtadyumna was actually a student of Drona, adopted by Drupada later.many Yadavas did send their sons to Drona. As the student, Dhrishtadyumna would've known Drona's tricks enough to defend Panchal against him.

https://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/manusmriti_1.asp

36. In the eighth year after conception, one should perform the initiation (upanayana) of a Brahmana, in the eleventh after conception (that) of a Kshatriya, but in the twelfth that of a Vaisya.

37. (The initiation) of a Brahmana who desires proficiency in sacred learning should take place in the fifth (year after conception), (that) of a Kshatriya who wishes to become powerful in the sixth, (and that) of a Vaisya who longs for (success in his) business in the eighth.

38. The (time for the) Savitri (initiation) of a Brahmana does not pass until the completion of the sixteenth year (after conception), of a Kshatriya until the completion of the twenty-second, and of a Vaisya until the completion of the twenty-fourth.

39. After those (periods men of) these three (castes) who have not received the sacrament at the proper time, become Vratyas (outcasts), excluded from the Savitri (initiation) and despised by the Aryans.

Ie, a child thought to be suitable for brahman varna is ready for upnayan at age 8, a kshattriy, at 11, and a vaishya, at 12. If the parents wish, the child may begin earlier at ages 5, 6, and 8, or latest by ages, 16, 22, and 24 respectively. There is no Upnayan after these ages and one will be in shudra varna.

Manusmriti also says education is 12, 36, or 48 years

Dhrishtadyumna being an Angirasa would be brahmana. If he started at 8 and finished in 12 years, he would've been 20. Maybe a year or two passed before adoption. Maybe he was YOUNGER than Panchali, not older or twin. But they came out of the fire together. That's it.

If someone asks me, I am a theist but I don't like to mix my religious beliefs with academic understanding..

I consider Krishnaji as God, worship him go for a Nirjala Vrta-,(a fast with not even a drop of water for 24 hours) for Janamashmi,

But when it comes to a academic discussion of Mahabharatha, I understand that breaking of so many laws of physics is not possible, it's not possible that Krishna was the only one right and the entire country kings were against him uselessly. So there I treat him as a normal human

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

@Nora. Some of what we are saying is analysis. That part was made very clear.

That Vyasa was involved in the adoption os pretty clear by all the nonsense stories he later feeds Drupada. How would Vyasa know so much detail about a girl he didn't know before? That he arranged the alliance is actually stated in text. I'm not sure how much evidence you need for it.

Re: Krishna. I already stated my reasons for believing he was involved. Add to that the fact not a single Yadava tried his luck in swayamvara should tell you they knew she was meant for someone else.

Dhrishtadyumna was a trained warrior. The same scene actually says Drona was surprised how much already knew.

Vyasa arranged alliance between Panchal and Pandavas, How does this support Theory of Draupadi being Ekanamsa? Even if he knew Draupadi from childhood, how does this support her being Ekanamsa?
The question is about her being Ekanamsa, that’s the theory right?

Yadavas didn’t participate is not mentioned also I have read so many discussions about Yadavas not liking Krishna or not supporting him, now in this they support him when they could try to get support of Panchal?

Then, one after another, those kings exhibited their valour for Krishna. But the bow was so strong that with all their strength, they could not string it. The firm wood of the bow recoiled and flung those brave rulers of men on the ground. They failed in their desire and could be seen on the ground, miserable and broken in spirit. That firm bow caused them pain and shattered their bracelets and earrings. Having lost hopes of obtaining Krishna, that assembly of kings was crestfallen. In that assembly, those kings who boasted of noble birth then became objects of derision. Kunti’s brave son Jishnu then arose, wishing to string the bow and place an arrow on it

See, People who participated are not mentioned, we are assuming that Yadavas didn’t participate

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yaar as per the epic they were born together. The ones born together are twins.

If there is an adult birth there is no reason for the twins to be in same age.

If they were Drupad's kids then why not mention in directly? Why this Agni birth?

Biologically speaking, people who are born together are not called twins, they have to be born from same pregnancy to be called twins, how can there be adult birth? It is very clear that they were twins but we are unnecessarily complicating things

They are called children of Drupad only, I haven’t read a para where they are not called children of Drupad and Prishati. Agni birth could have been propaganda like Pandava’s father being God, Here Drupad and his wife are mentioned as parents

I do think there’s possibility of adoption too but again what suggest that she was Ekanamsa?

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I just need something authentic to believe this theory, I am not trying to prove anyone wrong