~| Whatever you want to argue about - 2 |~

WELCOME.....

Thank you to Hearmeroar, Chilli, Flauntpessimism,Nora and all the

contributors for making previous thread such a success. So valuable.

About arjuna panchali marriage. Is there anything in the text that suggest that krishna was not capable enough to defeat drapaud. ?? .

If krishna was aiming for yadava dominance he could have easily defeated drona along with drishtdyum and panchal army. Married panchali and moved ahead with his plan. No need to include pandavas.

What reason can be that he actively plotted in joining kuru and panchal and thought that they would support yadava claim for dominance rather than their own??

Atleast with him marrying drapaudi he could have expected panchal support

Instead the guy actively plans for yudhishtra. He was part of the rasyu planning-

Thinking that the sacrifice should not be commenced, pursuant to his own resolution only, Yudhishthira, carefully bearing upon his shoulder the weight of affairs thought of Krishna that persecutor of all sinners as the fittest person to decide the matter, in as much as he knew him to be the foremost of all persons, possessed of immeasurable energy, strong-armed, without birth but born amongst men from Will alone. Reflecting upon his god-like feats the son of Pandu concluded that there was nothing that was unknown to him, nothing that he could not achieve, and nothing that he could not bear, and Yudhishthira, the son of Pritha, having come to this settled resolution soon sent a messenger unto that master of all beings, conveying through him blessings and speeches such as one senior in age might send to one that is younger. And that messenger riding in a swift car arrived amongst the Yadavas and approached Krishna who was then residing in Dwaravati. And Achyuta (Krishna) hearing that the son of Pritha had become desirous of seeing him, desired to see his cousin. And quickly passing over many regions, being drawn by his own swift horses, Krishna arrived at Indraprastha, accompanied by Indrasena. And having arrived at Indraprastha, Janardana approached Yudhisthira without loss of time.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02013.htm

And krishna was part of the all the major plans. Yudhishtra knew he cannot do rasjsu yagya without krishna . It was krishna who planned jasarandh s killing.

Yudhishtra gave the entire credit of rajsu yagya to krishna

O Krishna it is for thee that the whole earth is under my sway. And, O thou of the Vrishni race, it is through thy grace that vast wealth had been got by me. And, O son of Devaki, O Madhava, I desire to devote that wealth according to the ordinance, unto superior Brahmanas and the carrier of sacrificial libations. And, O thou of the Dasarha race, it behoveth thee, O thou of mighty arms, to grant me permission to celebrate a sacrifice along with thee and my younger brothers. Therefore, O Govinda, O thou of long arms, install thyself at that sacrifice; for, O thou of the Dasarha race, if thou performed the sacrifice, I shall be cleansed of sin. Or, O exalted one, grant permission for myself being installed at the sacrifice along with these my younger brothers, for permitted by thee, O Krishna. I shall be able to enjoy the fruit of an excellent sacrifice.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02032.htm

There is nothing that suggest krishna would not have married krishnaa apart from the plan that it was yudhishtra who was both vyasa and krishna s choosen one all along. Yes krishna wanted kuru panchal alliance but only to tackle jasarandh and then build up and new kingdom with yudhishtra and panchali.

If he wanted yadava s to dominate he would have himself married panchali .

Trust me. I would have been the happiest if krishna and krishnaa married. And stayed far far away from good for nothing pandavas. And despicable kauravas

I had gone of to sleep... You guys dont sleep or what

Ok...

Point 1. About yagyas. Yagya was the one year ritual after final culmination of a several year longer military campaign

All three Yagyas require army to go out and challenge kings for a battle and win the challenge, specially the big ones. However the king challenged may fight or may decide to not to fight and send away the army with gifts.

In Rajasuya most kings will not fight specially friendly kings.

In Ashwamedha, only the enemy kings will fight as they do not want to surrender their army to you or pay taxes to you

In Vajpeya, every king will fight you friend or enemy because they would not want to surrender their ancestral birth right to you.

Hence it was only 3 kings who could ever do vajpeya and live.

Point 2: Krishna's involvement in negotiations.

I believe he was present. Even if not in front, behind the scenes definetly

Negotiations happened

If everything had went as was planned by Drupad (Krishna). The Arjun Drau marriage. There was no need for any discussions. Marriage would have happened straight.

Most important point - The negotiations happened after the swayamvar.

Negotiation was with regards to Draupadi's marriage to all 5 brothers and or Yudhi definetly not Arjun alone.

Krishna / Drupad needed Arjun, they did not need as well as specifically did not want Yudhi.

See negotiations always happen when two parties are of almost equal strength.

If one is strong and other is weak, no negotiations are needed.

Vyasa's only strength was Pandavas unity. And this strength only worked after the swayamvar not before it.

If Vyasa negotiated before the swayamvar that Drau will marry Yudhi

Krishna Drupad may have agreed and used Yudhi to get Arjun

Or

They could have just easily said no. And Vyasa may have had to agree for Arjun Drau marriage.

Because Pandavs did need Panchal and Krishna

In either case Krishna's eventual goal of his son being emperor (not yadava supremacy) would still not be affected at all

But after Swayamvar Yudhi/Vyasa say all or none

The polyandry ruined Krishna's plan. Because now it was Draupadi who ensured that Arjun will fight everyone including Bhishma and HP and even Drona

But the polyandry meant, each of the Pandavas will never become independent

That Arjun will always fight for Yudhi's rights and no one else.

Arjun will never become a king, even for uttar panchal or a small teritory near dwarka

He will never do a Rajasuya of his own

Krishna Drupad are stuck here because

If they say no

Drupad is ruined. Arjun will protect Drona. Drau will have to kill herself.

Or marry Krishna in which case Arjun will go against Krishna to protect Drona.

But if they say yes... Yudhi rules....and his son after him.

But Krishna finds a way around this thru ashwatthama

Why will arjuna fight everyone for drapaudi is what i sm failing to understand. Or why will not all the pandavas under yudhishtra s guidance fight drona??

What has polyandry got to do anything with krishna drapaud s plan against drona. Its not like yudhishtra was more loyal to drona then arjuna. On contray it was arjuna who was way too attached to his teacher and grandfather.

In the final war drona was killing was planned by krishna and execute by yudhishtra bheem and drishtdyum. While arjuna was found lamenting the death of his guru mocking and taunting yudhishtra and drishtdyum.

And this after drona s silence in the dice game.

What makes you think arjuna would have gone against his teacher if he had alone married drapaudi. Bheem was the best option in such circumstances

And about krishna aiming his goal through ashwattama ?? I don't think he was aware of what ashwattama ? Plus him backstabbing panchali out of all people is something hard to digest. I don't think Krishna was so low as to backstab the people he was supporting from the beginning. Aiming for his progeny to lead is one thing and murder someone s death quite another. That s low. Very low. Krishna might not be a god incarnate but i don't think he was so low on morals.

About krishna subdhara and panchali. Krishna was completely wrong in regards of subdhara. He was a bad brother. But he certainly was affectionate to panchali and extremely possessive of her. I don't think that he would actively plot to backstab her. He was NOT a BAD human being. He was good at heart.

Originally posted by: Krishnapanchali

WELCOME.....

Thank you to Hearmeroar, Chilli, Flauntpessimism,Nora and all the

contributors for making previous thread such a success. So valuable.

Oh wow thankyou for this welcome note

I guess first in the History of IF, normal discussion thread reaches 50+ pages

It's mostly HearMeRoar n Chiilli who shared with us immense knowledge, that thread has so much to learn

Why did they sent Draupadi to potter's hut before marriage though?

Arjun had won the Swayamwar, so they should have First got the marriage solemnised between Arjun n Draupadi before allowing them to leave

Sending their daughter without marriage seems completely untraditional

1. Krishna was never aiming for Yadava supremacy. He was aiming for his supremacy.

Please note this big difference. Balram, Kritaverma, Samba were not the people he wanted to rule.

It was Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vajra.

Krishna was a good guy who knew Balram was as bad as Duryodhan, maybe even worse and completely unfit to rule.

Pradyumna was not his son. He was his protege. He wanted best for society. And he already had a best protege in Pradyumna. He had absolutely no use for Yudhi.

Please honestly tell me compared to Pradyumna's actions in the epic and Yudhis who is better.

He had as much problems from Shishupal as he had from Balram. If Shishupal was going after Rukmi, Samba went after the women he saved and made his wife.

If Jarasandh accused him as murderer and usurper. Balram and Kritaverma and satrajit also accused him as murderer and thief.

Akrura stole all Krishna's money from satya's dowry and ran away. And when he returned he still had the control of the money. Not Krishna. Krishna couldnt keep it because of Balram and Vasudev.

Balram owned Dwarka. He was the eldest son of Vasudev. It was his wife Revati who brought the land of Dwarka as dowry from her father. He had the right to rule. Krishna did not. When Balram went to mithila, all yadavas went after him. No one stayed by Krishna's side.

Yadaavs were using Krishna and supported him as long as he did not try to gain power. Otherwise they all would go against him..And all the yadaavs were bad guys

This was a fact that never changed.

All that lovey dovey feelings of Balram towards his brother is all nonsense.

When Krishna came for an alliance with Drupad and Pandavas he was alone. He needed a best friend Arjun as much as Arjun needed him.

He went ahead with polyandry, as there was nothing he could do.

For the time being Yudhi could aspire to be emperor. Arjun will become Krishnas friend and help him when needed, so would Bhima and twins. Draupadi will keep an eye on everyone. Krishna could use them to forge alliances and get rid of enemies

And when timing is right in future, do whatever is needed to be done.