~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 33

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

That is exactly what I'm trying to say.

Every one of Krishna's DELIBERATE steps had Yudhishtira's empire as the plausible outcome. For all Krishna knew, his efforts ended with rajasuya with Yudhishtira as prime ruler and his children in line to inherit. Where is the Yadava domination then?

At the end of the war, Upapandavas were still alive. Where is the Yadava domination then?

For all Krishna knew, Uttara's child had 50/50 chance of being a girl. Not only that, PANCHALI begs him to revive the child. Where is the Yadava domination then unless we believe she was in cahoots with him?

Krishna wouldn't even go on the Ashwamedha to build Hastinapuri back up. Even if Parikshit inherited, it would've been a small kingdom (as it eventually was). How will be this be in any way a domination by Yadavas?

Moreover, Krishna's own children would never inherit. Any children of the Pandavas would also be part-Yadava (Pritha, daughter of Surasena, mother of Yudhishtira, Bheema, Arjuna). The upapandavas would be 1/4 Yadava while Abhimanyu was 3/4. But Parikshit was 3/8 Yadava. Do we seriously believe Krishna was going by these fractions?

Actually if you read Chhiillli's response, she said that Krishna wanted his grandchildren on the throne (not Parikshit/Abhimanyu) he wanted to raise Parikshit as an ally of Vajra

He never was into Yudhishtir becoming the emperor. He just needed the Pandavas as the allies

Definitely I don't have knowledge as you both so won't barge in into your discussion, Felt you understood it wrong so commented

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Actually if you read Chhiillli's response, she said that Krishna wanted his grandchildren on the throne (not Parikshit/Abhimanyu) he wanted to raise Parikshit as an ally of Vajra

He never was into Yudhishtir becoming the emperor. He just needed the Pandavas as the allies

Definitely I don't have knowledge as you both so won't barge in into your discussion, Felt you understood it wrong so commented

Again, the problem is things were planned up to and until rajasuya. At THAT point, it would've been Yudhishtira's children/grandchildren on the Pandava throne. And Ugrasena's progeny/Balram's sons on the Yadava throne.

The rest of the events followed from dice hall which Krishna DID NOT plan. So all the talk about Krishna wanting his own empire is illogical.

Let's say Krishna decided to take advantage of the situation. Pradyumna and his children would never inherit because Balram. Parikshit was not Krishna's grandson. If the suggestion is that he wanted Arjuna's progeny on the throne, once again... why was Abhimanyu left unprotected? How did Krishna know Uttara would be pregnant? How did Krishna know Uttara would have a boy? Upapandavas were also part-Yadava, just like Pariskhit was part-Yadava. NONE of them were Krishna's grandchildren. Unless we're reading that KARSHNI bit literally, of course. In which case, Abhimanyu was Krishna's biological son and Parikshit grandson.

Then, Krishna died first. If Yudhishtira and Panchali felt so powerless, THAT was the moment to seize power back.

@HearMeRoar

I don't know much about politics at that time but I agree Krishna couldn't have planted all this but it is again not correct to say that Krishna invested so much time and effort for something he had no interest in, he was actively involved in politics of that time

@FlauntPessimism

I agree, Bhishma certainly had interest of his clan in his mind and Dury was much more Kaurava than Pandavas, but he didn't really plan for destruction of Pandavas, I don't think he anticipated the fight of this level between them, I guess he was aiming for a combine rule where one helps another instead of fighting so he never took a clear side before Bifurcation, After it Pandavas weren't part of Hastinapur and he was openly supporting Dury and his King

One more topic - I think after war period was longer than 36 months

1 They can't leave a kingdom with kids, Subhadra couldn't even call Krishna for help in case they were under attack, so Pandavas obviously left after stabilizing their kingdom. Kingdom with 2 toddlers as kings and an old woman as protector is not logical. Yudi spoke to Subhadra and asked her not to be unrighteous and protect Vajra, He didn't ask her to protect Parikshit

2 Arjuna's description, He fought a war and Ashwamegha Yagya, How can he become so powerless within months of these tasks? Arjuna's description is of an old man, who didn't have power to fight, who couldn't remember how to use weapons

Originally posted by: NoraSM

@HearMeRoar

I don't know much about politics at that time but I agree Krishna couldn't have planted all this but it is again not correct to say that Krishna invested so much time and effort for something he had no interest in, he was actively involved in politics of that time

@FlauntPessimism

I agree, Bhishma certainly had interest of his clan in his mind and Dury was much more Kaurava than Pandavas, but he didn't really plan for destruction of Pandavas, I don't think he anticipated the fight of this level between them, I guess he was aiming for a combine rule where one helps another instead of fighting so he never took a clear side before Bifurcation, After it Pandavas weren't part of Hastinapur and he was openly supporting Dury and his King

One more topic - I think after war period was longer than 36 months

1 They can't leave a kingdom with kids, Subhadra couldn't even call Krishna for help in case they were under attack, so Pandavas obviously left after stabilizing their kingdom. Kingdom with 2 toddlers as kings and an old woman as protector is not logical. Yudi spoke to Subhadra and asked her not to be unrighteous and protect Vajra, He didn't ask her to protect Parikshit

2 Arjuna's description, He fought a war and Ashwamegha Yagya, How can he become so powerless within months of these tasks? Arjuna's description is of an old man, who didn't have power to fight, who couldn't remember how to use weapons

See, Krishna's self-interest is believable only if he knew dice hall was being arranged. Otherwise, as far as he knew, his role in empire ended with rajasuya. His self-interest ended with getting rid of Jarasandha and having a friendly emperor on the throne. At that time, unless Krishna were God, his idea would've been that Yudishtira's progeny would continue on the throne.

Re: Pariskhit. Vajra was the son of Suthanu and Bhanu. Given that Krishna married Satyabhama before Panchali swayamvar, Bhanu was likely older than Abhimanyu. Suthanu was also likely older than Abhimanyu. If Bhanu's son, Vajra, was young enough to be put in charge of Subhadra, then Parikshit was even more so.

Also, Yuyutsu was in charge of Hastinapuri throne, not Subhadra. And Kripa was just installed teacher.

Resolved to retire from the world for earning merit, they brought Yuyutsu before them. Yudhishthira made over the kingdom to the son of his uncle by his Vaisya wife. Installing Parikshit also on their throne, as king, the eldest brother of the Pandavas, filled with sorrow, addressed Subhadra, saying, ‘This son of thy son will be the king of the Kurus. The survivor of the Yadus, Vajra, has been made a king. Parikshit will rule in Hastinapura, while the Yadava prince, Vajra, will rule in Shakraprastha. He should be protected by thee. Never set thy heart on unrighteousness.’

...

Summoning the citizens. Kripa was installed as the preceptor and Parikshit was made over to him as his disciple, O chief of Bharata’s race.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m17/m17001.htm

@HearMeRoar your point is clear till we took that Rajsuya made Yudhishtir the emperor, but now Chhilllii has stated that Rajsuya Yagya only made Yudhishtir an independent king and not an emperor. After Rajsuya he was at par with other independent kingdoms, he wasn't superior to Kurus or Yadavs

He became an emperor only after Ashwamedh, a time when Krishna actually didn't directly support him.

So Rajsuya was definitely not aimed at getting a friendly king to become the emperor. Krishna's objective could be a symbiotic relationship, where Bheem kills Jarasangh and Krishna help Pandavas the acceptance of others.

Now the question is did Krishna actually want Yudhishtir as an emperor or not

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

@HearMeRoar your point is clear till we took that Rajsuya made Yudhishtir the emperor, but now Chhilllii has stated that Rajsuya Yagya only made Yudhishtir an independent king and not an emperor. After Rajsuya he was at par with other independent kingdoms, he wasn't superior to Kurus or Yadavs

He became an emperor only after Ashwamedh, a time when Krishna actually didn't directly support him.

So Rajsuya was definitely not aimed at getting a friendly king to become the emperor. Krishna's objective could be a symbiotic relationship, where Bheem kills Jarasangh and Krishna help Pandavas the acceptance of others.

Now the question is did Krishna actually want Yudhishtir as an emperor or not

I think there were no other options. Suyodhana would not have listened to anything Krishna or Vyasa had to say. With Yudishtira, Krishna at least had a hope of getting through. Plus, Panchali was the finance minister and citizen liaison, and Arjuna the external affairs minister, so Krishna had good amount of say through them, as well.

@Nora I don't think Bheeshm wanted a happy family with both parts together, or even if he did Yudhishtir n Kunti after return had clearly indicated that they want back their state. A happy family with both parts together was out of question now

Maybe they would have been dear to Bheeshm had they accepted their status as a needy and submissive cousins, but they claimed their rights over the throne.

So it was now Yudhishtir/Pandavas vs Duryodhan. He definitely had a clear favourite now. He definitely wanted to remove the threat in the way of Duryodhan

About the 36 years thing it seems way too much, as Pandavas were 50+ at the time of the war so did they travel at 86+? Seems difficult, but even I don't think Ashwamedh Yagya could be completed in 36 months, so I am not sure which number to believe

@Chilli what is your view on drapaudi s marriage?? Was it polyandrous or was she only married to yudhishtra?

@Hear me Roar.

Why would Krishna want Yudhishtir to be emperor. Why wouldnt he want Pradyumn and let Vajra to be emperor and Yudhishtir could be the ally who helped him achieve that.

Why would Yudhishtir or Suyodhan be an option, why not Pradyumn. Do note whatever anybody thought, Yadu was the legitimate first born heir of Yayati.

Shurasen was King of Mathura till Ugrasen and Devaka over threw him.

Balram has two sons mentioned. Nishata and Ulaka. But they are just names. Nothing is mentioned of them anywhere.Absolutely nothing. Most importantly their sons/balram's grandsons are not mentioned. That makes me believe these children died as kids.

Also I share your opinion Samba was born illegitimately and much later after Pradyumna had been adopted as heir.

Ugrasen had no sons left. Throne went back to vasudev once he died. In any case Ugrasen was a throne warmer. Like the MMS we had.

It was always meant for Vasudev to be king. And then Krishna. That is why Balram presumed Krishna had syamantak mani and left dwarka self exiled to mithila. Elders brought him back and krishna convinced him to stay. He would again be like Ugrasen, a throne warmer for Pradyumna. Krishn also had Bhanu but pretty late in life. And when Aniruddha had a daughter, Bhanu's son Vajra became next in line. Succession plans were in place in Dwarka.

Krishn did not have the problem that Bhishma had.

Again I repeat, Rajsuya had did not mean Yudhishtir will become emperor. He was only becoming an independent king

Being independent king does not mean they get to be emperor by default. Ajamidha did one so his branch of Kuru became independent

Uparichara Vasu did, so his branch became independent

Brahmadutt did so Panchal became independent.

By the way, there was another Brahmadatt a friend of vasudev who did Rajasuya in Shatpura, that was protected by Krishna and Pandavas. This is the story where Pradyumna ties up all the kurus and throws them in the cave.

Krishna and Pradyumna fought for this guy at his Rajasuya too. So was he a contender for emperor.

Rajasuya only meant independence not empire.

As an ally Krishna helped Pandavas become independent of Kuru. He did not intend or attempt to make Yudhishtir emperor.

If he had accepted Yudhishtir as emperor, he would have gone on ashwamedha with Arjun. He and Yadavas attended as special guests not vassals.

In any case even Ashwamedha does not bestow an empire. It only seals a military alliance.

Yes Krishna himself did not do a Rajsuya, 2 reasons, throne warmer Ugrasen was alive till Pandavas Ashwamedha. And salwa paundraka eklavya banasur were killed when Pandavas were in exile. .

So it took a little longer for Krishna to get rid of all his enemies.

Most likely Krishna was planning his ashwamedha/vajpeya when the Yadava fratricide broke out.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

@Chilli what is your view on drapaudi s marriage?? Was it polyandrous or was she only married to yudhishtra?

I believe it was a polyandrous marriage. And she was not the only one. Virat's mother was married to Virat's father and his brothers.

Bhaumasvi, daughter of Usinara king of Sibi had a polyandrous marriage.

Polyandry was not default option, that polygyny was but it existed

Same with widow remarriages. They existed. Not common but they did. Eg. Ulupi.satyavati also was proposes by ugrayudha.

Most importantly the society was deeply conservative and patriarchal. There was no need to mention polyandry if it did not happen