~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 32

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Chanakya was from 3rd century BC, likely before there was written MBh,

Yes that is why I asked if Chanakya actually ever mentioned about Mahabharata

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

They split up the land between different rulers before abdicating. Hastinapuri went to Parikshit. But as what CHili says, Ashwamedha and Rajasuya didn't really lead to empires. So Hastinapuri was only one kingdom, not the seat of the empire.

But they literally gave like one small kingdom to their surviving heir? (Considering Yaudheya etc died or didn't play any part)

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

But Hastinapur was their original kingdom right. Shouldn't it go to Prativindhya's son while others including Parikshit get smaller/other areas

Like Luv Kush had got Koshal and Pushkar and Taksh other areas

Prativindhya had a son? How come Parikshit succeeded then

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Yudhishthir ascended to the imperial throne right? So his successor should also be the emperor right? Or did Yudhishthir lose alot of his kingdom?

Ashwamedh Yagya is only for that particular king, it is not inherited

After Ashwamedh Yudhishtir did become Rajadhiraj but this wouldn't be inherited

To become a Chakravarti Samrat, a Vajpey Yagya is needed and that title is inherited

Rajsuya Yagya is just to claim your state independence and acceptance from other States. That has nothing to do with subduing others. TV shows have it all wrong

Chhiillli explained it in a previous posts

Neither Yudhishtira nor Panchali was powerless at the time of abdication. Even if we imagine Krishna to be some dominating force, he was already dead. Yadavas were mostly dead. Arjuna wasn't powerful enough at the time to save even the Yadava women. The Vaishnava dominance had yet to start, so there was no threat from the rishis, either.

There was nothing stopping Yudhishtira from giving Hastinapuri to Prativindhya's progeny if he so wished. There was no threat whatsoever from the Yadavas/Vasishnavas to the descendants of upapandavas.

I also happen to think Prativindhya was Yaudheya, which was why Hastinapuri ended up going to Parikshit. Panchali might not have cared much who got what.

To reiterate: Hastinapuri was ancestral land, but it was still only one small kingdom.

One assumption that every one is making that Krishna wanted Yudhishtir to be emperor, but if he becomes one his descendents will rule after him. Not Yadavas.

I dont think Krishna wanted that. I think Krishna wanted an empire ruled by him, inherited by his descendents

I made this assumption too, till i read about yagys and found Rajasuya had nothing to do with being an emperor. Ordinary independent kings do it. Rajsasuya did not make Yudhishtir superior to anyone be it kurus or yadavas. He was just made independent.

Only then the aftermath of epic made sense.. As with any race, the winner is the one who crosses the finishing line.

A lot of races are won when the winner overtakes others. However a race can also be won if losers fall down before they reach the finish line.

First of all whether it was Krishna or Bhishma or even Narendra Modi today they are politicians not engineers.

Politics is not engineering. You dont make a blueprint in politics.

Politics is about taking advantages of opportunities as they present themselves and making compromises to cut your losses if things dont go your way. Politicians dont have plans, they have goals.

The three politicians were Bhishma, Krishna and Yudhishtir. All three had the same goal, their empire. But there could be only one empire. Krishna won, Bhishma and Yudhi lost.

Bhishma's goal was to have a Kuru empire.

Step 1. Was getting good healthy heir, because Pandu and Dhrit were not. He cannot have children and Vidur was not eligible.

He would have made peace with Kunti and Yudhishtir if Duryodhan wasnt there. Even brought him to Hastinapur and groomed him personally. But Duryodhan was there. So he preferred him. All the murder attempts on Pandavas happened till Drona arrived. Why did they. Lakshagriha happened much later. Why

Step 2. Was strenghtening Hastinapur and bringing back its former glory. And making Duryodhan the Kuru, an emperor by killing the enemies and making friends.

Talent that Drona saw must have been observed by Bhishma too. Arjun was more useful as a warrior fighting for Hastinapur than dead.

His being nice with them, getting training from Drona, ensured Arjun cut Panchal in half, crushed Sauvira and Sindhu and restablished Hastinapur as a major force.

Also karna did defeat a lot of kings after lakshagriha including Jarasandh and got back anga from him. So Arjun was not needed anymore.

Krishna had the same goal. Goal of a yadaav empire. He wanted a Yadava empire that he would build and leave to his children. He had Pradyumna and later Bhanu, Samba i dont think he cared much about

He was getting rid of enemies and making friends. Arjun Subhadra marriage was his intention all along. Arjun and bhima as a warrior were as useful to Krishna as they were to Bhishma. And they proved that by killing Nikumbha, defeating vinda anuvinda and killing Jarasandh. Eventually he gets his son Bhanu married to Yudhishtir daughter.

Why would Krishna not build an empire himself, why let Pandavas build it. Arjuna was not the only one marrying girls. Krishna married 8 princesses. He met Parshuram and found from him where he could get weapons. His adopted sons Pradyumna and Samba were also marrying princes. Satyaki was too married to a panchal princess I think

Finally Yudhishtir guided by Vyasa was also a politician. His goal was also the empire. A pandava empire

As I said before, Arjun was not on an exile. Exile was just a ruse, to quietly go and make alliances and get money for IP. He was not on a pilgrimage.

Nagas through Ulupi was an alliance. Chitra was married for money. Parshuram he couldnt meet for weapons. Subhadra was alliance and money. Unless it was preplanned itinerary Arjun cannot have 12 month exile. He also along with his other brothers was forging alliances through marriage.

Empire was the ultimate goal, yes. But like I mentioned Rajasuya is not done by an emperor. Rajasuya only makes a King independent.

Till Rajasuya or even afterwards at any point did Yadaavs or Krishna accept Yudhishtir as their sovereign. He was their ally that is all. Yudhishtir was never the emperor and I dont think Krishna or Bhishma ever wanted him to be.

Only during Rajasuya did all three people clash. Bhishma Yudhishtir and Krishna....

Where the three of them may have realised that all three are fighting for the same goal.

Subsequent dice game pitted Kurus and Pandavs against each other. Yadaavs watched as they killed themselves with their heirs and Krishna then proceeded to groom Parikshit. Not to be emperor but support Vajra as he becomes emperor

But the curse that destroyed kurus, destroyed yadaavs too. Yadava fought amongst themselves over control of empire.

Krishna did not kill his sons. Krishna did not kill his family members. Kritaverma killed Pradyumna and bhanu. Satyaki killed Kritaverma. Then it was a free for all. Kritaverma was not Krishna's brother. He was like Duryodhan for him.

Finally Krishna faced the same.situation that Yudhishtir did. His sons bodies.

He saw what Yudhishtir was living with. He chose to give up then.

By the way post war they cannot have died in 3 years. Parikshit was not made king as a baby. Not as a 36 year old either. But definetly as an adult.

Yuyutsu was an advisor like Vidur.

Subhadra was not regent either, she was just a mentor to ensure Parikshit and Vajra dont do what Yudhishtir and Krishna and Duryodhan did.

Problem is Krishna could've planned all this only if he could foresee every single step I mentioned in my prior post.

______________

REPOSTING:

1. Krishna couldn't have known Arjuna would show up in Dwaraka at the end of his first exile. Krishna might well have wanted Arjuna to marry Subhadra. In that case, why didn't he do a proper marriage proposal?

2. Krishna couldn't have known Subhadra's child would be a boy.

3. He couldn't have known there would be a dice game.

4. Dwaraka was left practically in ruins by Salwa's attack and was no longer the power it once was.

5. Krishna actually wanted to go on the attack twice. Once, immediately after dice game and second, after Arjuna returned from Indra's kingdom. Yudhishtira was the one who refused.

6. When the actual war game, Balram wanted to fight for Suyodhana. He only left because Krishna refused. Krishna never stopped the Yadavas who did fight on Kaurava side. Just like most other kingdoms in the land, the Yadavas also had people fighting on both sides.

7. If Krishna wanted Yadava dominance, one of the first things to ensure would've been to keep Abhimanyu safe. He could've asked Satyaki.

8. Upapandavas were actually alive at the end of war. For all Krishna knew at the time, Prativindhya COULD have been crowned king.

9. Since Satyaki previously stated Abhimanyu as heir, we can assume it would've been Uttara's child. Problem is even if anyone knew at the time Uttara was pregnant, Krishna had no way of telling her child would be a boy.

10. Ashwatthama wasn't acting on orders of Krishna when he killed upapandavas. Until that point, for all Krishna knew, Prativindhya would still have been heir.

11. KRISHNA REFUSED TO GO ON ASHWAMEDHA WITH ARJUNA. Far from being under control of Krishna, Arjuna did the rest on his own on YUDHISHTIRA'S orders. There would've been only a small piece of land to split if not for Yudhishtira and Panchali.

12. As I said in the beginning, Krishna slaughtered the Yadavas himself and other disappeared (Bhagavatham) or died (Mahabharata). No, he didn't kill his sons, but Pradyumna wouldn't have been king/emperor in any case.

13. The post war period was definitely not years. Parikshit was not an adult, or Yudhishtira would've been talking to him and not Subhadra and Kripa and Yuyutsu. Parkiskhit was a baby for Subhadra to be left in care and Kripa to be appointed teacher. An adult would not need a keeper or a teacher who was clearly trained in elementary education as he did that for Pandavas as well.

Resolved to retire from the world for earning merit, they brought Yuyutsu before them. Yudhishthira made over the kingdom to the son of his uncle by his Vaisya wife. Installing Parikshit also on their throne, as king, the eldest brother of the Pandavas, filled with sorrow, addressed Subhadra, saying, ‘This son of thy son will be the king of the Kurus. The survivor of the Yadus, Vajra, has been made a king. Parikshit will rule in Hastinapura, while the Yadava prince, Vajra, will rule in Shakraprastha. He should be protected by thee. Never set thy heart on unrighteousness.’

...

Summoning the citizens. Kripa was installed as the preceptor and Parikshit was made over to him as his disciple, O chief of Bharata’s race.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m17/m17001.htm

14. At that point, there was no one left to threaten Yudhishtira or Panchali if they even chose to invite the Cinas (Chinese) in. Krishna was dead, Yadavas were dead, Pariskhit was a toddler.

15. Yuyutsu was left as regent. He owed nothing to the Yadavas.

____________

If Krishna could foresee all this, he WAS God.

In which case, none of the debates matter.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

One assumption that every one is making that Krishna wanted Yudhishtir to be emperor, but if he becomes one his descendents will rule after him. Not Yadavas.

I dont think Krishna wanted that. I think Krishna wanted an empire ruled by him, inherited by his descendents

I made this assumption too, till i read about yagys and found Rajasuya had nothing to do with being an emperor. Ordinary independent kings do it. Rajsasuya did not make Yudhishtir superior to anyone be it kurus or yadavas. He was just made independent.

Only then the aftermath of epic made sense.. As with any race, the winner is the one who crosses the finishing line.

A lot of races are won when the winner overtakes others. However a race can also be won if losers fall down before they reach the finish line.

First of all whether it was Krishna or Bhishma or even Narendra Modi today they are politicians not engineers.

Politics is not engineering. You dont make a blueprint in politics.

Politics is about taking advantages of opportunities as they present themselves and making compromises to cut your losses if things dont go your way. Politicians dont have plans, they have goals.

The three politicians were Bhishma, Krishna and Yudhishtir. All three had the same goal, their empire. But there could be only one empire. Krishna won, Bhishma and Yudhi lost.

Bhishma's goal was to have a Kuru empire.

Step 1. Was getting good healthy heir, because Pandu and Dhrit were not. He cannot have children and Vidur was not eligible.

He would have made peace with Kunti and Yudhishtir if Duryodhan wasnt there. Even brought him to Hastinapur and groomed him personally. But Duryodhan was there. So he preferred him. All the murder attempts on Pandavas happened till Drona arrived. Why did they. Lakshagriha happened much later. Why

Step 2. Was strenghtening Hastinapur and bringing back its former glory. And making Duryodhan the Kuru, an emperor by killing the enemies and making friends.

Talent that Drona saw must have been observed by Bhishma too. Arjun was more useful as a warrior fighting for Hastinapur than dead.

His being nice with them, getting training from Drona, ensured Arjun cut Panchal in half, crushed Sauvira and Sindhu and restablished Hastinapur as a major force.

Also karna did defeat a lot of kings after lakshagriha including Jarasandh and got back anga from him. So Arjun was not needed anymore.

Krishna had the same goal. Goal of a yadaav empire. He wanted a Yadava empire that he would build and leave to his children. He had Pradyumna and later Bhanu, Samba i dont think he cared much about

He was getting rid of enemies and making friends. Arjun Subhadra marriage was his intention all along. Arjun and bhima as a warrior were as useful to Krishna as they were to Bhishma. And they proved that by killing Nikumbha, defeating vinda anuvinda and killing Jarasandh. Eventually he gets his son Bhanu married to Yudhishtir daughter.

Why would Krishna not build an empire himself, why let Pandavas build it. Arjuna was not the only one marrying girls. Krishna married 8 princesses. He met Parshuram and found from him where he could get weapons. His adopted sons Pradyumna and Samba were also marrying princes. Satyaki was too married to a panchal princess I think

Finally Yudhishtir guided by Vyasa was also a politician. His goal was also the empire. A pandava empire

As I said before, Arjun was not on an exile. Exile was just a ruse, to quietly go and make alliances and get money for IP. He was not on a pilgrimage.

Nagas through Ulupi was an alliance. Chitra was married for money. Parshuram he couldnt meet for weapons. Subhadra was alliance and money. Unless it was preplanned itinerary Arjun cannot have 12 month exile. He also along with his other brothers was forging alliances through marriage.

Empire was the ultimate goal, yes. But like I mentioned Rajasuya is not done by an emperor. Rajasuya only makes a King independent.

Till Rajasuya or even afterwards at any point did Yadaavs or Krishna accept Yudhishtir as their sovereign. He was their ally that is all. Yudhishtir was never the emperor and I dont think Krishna or Bhishma ever wanted him to be.

Only during Rajasuya did all three people clash. Bhishma Yudhishtir and Krishna....

Where the three of them may have realised that all three are fighting for the same goal.

Subsequent dice game pitted Kurus and Pandavs against each other. Yadaavs watched as they killed themselves with their heirs and Krishna then proceeded to groom Parikshit. Not to be emperor but support Vajra as he becomes emperor

But the curse that destroyed kurus, destroyed yadaavs too. Yadava fought amongst themselves over control of empire.

Krishna did not kill his sons. Krishna did not kill his family members. Kritaverma killed Pradyumna and bhanu. Satyaki killed Kritaverma. Then it was a free for all. Kritaverma was not Krishna's brother. He was like Duryodhan for him.

Finally Krishna faced the same.situation that Yudhishtir did. His sons bodies.

He saw what Yudhishtir was living with. He chose to give up then.

By the way post war they cannot have died in 3 years. Parikshit was not made king as a baby. Not as a 36 year old either. But definetly as an adult.

Yuyutsu was an advisor like Vidur.

Subhadra was not regent either, she was just a mentor to ensure Parikshit and Vajra dont do what Yudhishtir and Krishna and Duryodhan did.

@Bold

Agreed!

They might have taken advantage of opportunities as they presented themselves but planning everything, moves of other characters is not something anyone can do, it doesn't even work in Chess most of the time

Originally posted by: NoraSM

@Bold

Agreed!

They might have taken advantage of opportunities as they presented themselves but planning everything, moves of other characters is not something anyone can do, it doesn't even work in Chess most of the time

That is exactly what I'm trying to say.

Every one of Krishna's DELIBERATE steps had Yudhishtira's empire as the plausible outcome. For all Krishna knew, his efforts ended with rajasuya with Yudhishtira as prime ruler and his children in line to inherit. Where is the Yadava domination then?

At the end of the war, Upapandavas were still alive. Where is the Yadava domination then?

For all Krishna knew, Uttara's child had 50/50 chance of being a girl. Not only that, PANCHALI begs him to revive the child. Where is the Yadava domination then unless we believe she was in cahoots with him?

Krishna wouldn't even go on the Ashwamedha to build Hastinapuri back up. Even if Parikshit inherited, it would've been a small kingdom (as it eventually was). How will be this be in any way a domination by Yadavas?

Moreover, Krishna's own children would never inherit. Any children of the Pandavas would also be part-Yadava (Pritha, daughter of Surasena, mother of Yudhishtira, Bheema, Arjuna). The upapandavas would be 1/4 Yadava while Abhimanyu was 3/4. But Parikshit was 3/8 Yadava. Do we seriously believe Krishna was going by these fractions?

Originally posted by: NoraSM

@Bold

Agreed!

They might have taken advantage of opportunities as they presented themselves but planning everything, moves of other characters is not something anyone can do, it doesn't even work in Chess most of the time

Planning everything can never be possible by anyone. But the intention or goal is clear..

They try to twist the situation to lead them towards his goal