~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 34

Originally posted by: Chiillii

I believe it was a polyandrous marriage. And she was not the only one. Virat's mother was married to Virat's father and his brothers.

Bhaumasvi, daughter of Usinara king of Sibi had a polyandrous marriage.

Polyandry was not default option, that polygyny was but it existed

Same with widow remarriages. They existed. Not common but they did. Eg. Ulupi.satyavati also was proposes by ugrayudha.

Most importantly the society was deeply conservative and patriarchal. There was no need to mention polyandry if it did not happen

I agree, if Polyandry wasn't there, including this in the texts about the heroine would have made her unacceptance but that never happened

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

See, Krishna's self-interest is believable only if he knew dice hall was being arranged. Otherwise, as far as he knew, his role in empire ended with rajasuya. His self-interest ended with getting rid of Jarasandha and having a friendly emperor on the throne. At that time, unless Krishna were God, his idea would've been that Yudishtira's progeny would continue on the throne.

Re: Pariskhit. Vajra was the son of Suthanu and Bhanu. Given that Krishna married Satyabhama before Panchali swayamvar, Bhanu was likely older than Abhimanyu. Suthanu was also likely older than Abhimanyu. If Bhanu's son, Vajra, was young enough to be put in charge of Subhadra, then Parikshit was even more so.

Also, Yuyutsu was in charge of Hastinapuri throne, not Subhadra. And Kripa was just installed teacher.

Resolved to retire from the world for earning merit, they brought Yuyutsu before them. Yudhishthira made over the kingdom to the son of his uncle by his Vaisya wife. Installing Parikshit also on their throne, as king, the eldest brother of the Pandavas, filled with sorrow, addressed Subhadra, saying, ‘This son of thy son will be the king of the Kurus. The survivor of the Yadus, Vajra, has been made a king. Parikshit will rule in Hastinapura, while the Yadava prince, Vajra, will rule in Shakraprastha. He should be protected by thee. Never set thy heart on unrighteousness.’

...

Summoning the citizens. Kripa was installed as the preceptor and Parikshit was made over to him as his disciple, O chief of Bharata’s race.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m17/m17001.htm

I am not thinking about Krishna being an emperor, I am saying he supported Pandavas, he invested time, money and efforts, it couldn't be because he didn't have anything else to do, he had responsibilities too. Like defeating Jarasandh where Pandavas were important to him, then he had an ally in Hastinapur in form of Pandavas, Kauravas wouldn't have allowed him to interfere, He can't plan everything but he obviously had a goal

Parikshit was old enough to have a teacher, I don't think it was 36 years but again it couldn't be 36 months

Originally posted by: Chiillii

@Hear me Roar.

Why would Krishna want Yudhishtir to be emperor. Why wouldnt he want Pradyumn and let Vajra to be emperor and Yudhishtir could be the ally who helped him achieve that.

Why would Yudhishtir or Suyodhan be an option, why not Pradyumn. Do note whatever anybody thought, Yadu was the legitimate first born heir of Yayati.

Shurasen was King of Mathura till Ugrasen and Devaka over threw him.

Balram has two sons mentioned. Nishata and Ulaka. But they are just names. Nothing is mentioned of them anywhere.Absolutely nothing. Most importantly their sons/balram's grandsons are not mentioned. That makes me believe these children died as kids.

Also I share your opinion Samba was born illegitimately and much later after Pradyumna had been adopted as heir.

Ugrasen had no sons left. Throne went back to vasudev once he died. In any case Ugrasen was a throne warmer. Like the MMS we had.

It was always meant for Vasudev to be king. And then Krishna. That is why Balram presumed Krishna had syamantak mani and left dwarka self exiled to mithila. Elders brought him back and krishna convinced him to stay. He would again be like Ugrasen, a throne warmer for Pradyumna. Krishn also had Bhanu but pretty late in life. And when Aniruddha had a daughter, Bhanu's son Vajra became next in line. Succession plans were in place in Dwarka.

Krishn did not have the problem that Bhishma had.

Again I repeat, Rajsuya had did not mean Yudhishtir will become emperor. He was only becoming an independent king

Being independent king does not mean they get to be emperor by default. Ajamidha did one so his branch of Kuru became independent

Uparichara Vasu did, so his branch became independent

Brahmadutt did so Panchal became independent.

By the way, there was another Brahmadatt a friend of vasudev who did Rajasuya in Shatpura, that was protected by Krishna and Pandavas. This is the story where Pradyumna ties up all the kurus and throws them in the cave.

Krishna and Pradyumna fought for this guy at his Rajasuya too. So was he a contender for emperor.

Rajasuya only meant independence not empire.

As an ally Krishna helped Pandavas become independent of Kuru. He did not intend or attempt to make Yudhishtir emperor.

If he had accepted Yudhishtir as emperor, he would have gone on ashwamedha with Arjun. He and Yadavas attended as special guests not vassals.

In any case even Ashwamedha does not bestow an empire. It only seals a military alliance.

Yes Krishna himself did not do a Rajsuya, 2 reasons, throne warmer Ugrasen was alive till Pandavas Ashwamedha. And salwa paundraka eklavya banasur were killed when Pandavas were in exile. .

So it took a little longer for Krishna to get rid of all his enemies.

Most likely Krishna was planning his ashwamedha/vajpeya when the Yadava fratricide broke out.

@Bold sorry couldn't stop myself🤣

By the way can we consider modern day PMs equivalent to Samrat?? Or not since they don't rule on Aryavarta areas of Pakistan and Bangladesh

@Nora I don't think Bheeshm wanted a happy family with both parts together, or even if he did Yudhishtir n Kunti after return had clearly indicated that they want back their state. A happy family with both parts together was out of question now

Maybe they would have been dear to Bheeshm had they accepted their status as a needy and submissive cousins, but they claimed their rights over the throne.

So it was now Yudhishtir/Pandavas vs Duryodhan. He definitely had a clear favourite now. He definitely wanted to remove the threat in the way of Duryodhan

About the 36 years thing it seems way too much, as Pandavas were 50+ at the time of the war so did they travel at 86+? Seems difficult, but even I don't think Ashwamedh Yagya could be completed in 36 months, so I am not sure which number to believe

anything

As Chilli said Arjuna was more useful to him as a warrior and protector of Hastinapur, He wasn't trying to kill them, Bhima would have been important in a similar way, that's why I think he didn't expect they will fight like this. He wasn't thinking about their happiness, he never went against the throne of Hastinapur, I don't see his involvement in plots rather he didn't do anything because as a state head with King's support killing 5 kids wouldn't have been difficult

If krishna wanted a yadava on the throne why not promote vajra for the throne afterall he was his grandson he was yudhishtra s grandson. While parkishit was only his sister's grandson vajra anyday had a better claim to the throne if krishna wanted yadava dominance he should have promoted him

That would have been post the entry of Drona, prior to that he definitely was aware (if you don't agree him to be the planner) of all the murder plans on the Pandavas and didn't want to stop those. Bheem could have been anyway useful only in individual duels not so much in wars

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

If krishna wanted a yadava on the throne why not promote vajra for the throne afterall he was his grandson he was yudhishtra s grandson. While parkishit was only his sister's grandson vajra anyday had a better claim to the throne if krishna wanted yadava dominance he should have promoted him

Read Chhiillli's response. He wanted Hastinapur to be a Yadav ally while the latter are in their imperial campaign

Definitely he wouldn't want to have an enimity with them by trying to annex their land

He was raising Parikshit and even Abhimanyu as a support to his heir and not as a imperial candidate

@FlauntPessimism -

Yes, After Drona Arjuna became useful to Hastinapur but Arjuna had a bond with Bhishma since his childhood before he went to Gurukul, I don't think Bhishma had any reason to fake the love and bonding with Arjuna, he didn't know Arjuna will go on to achieve so many things

I remember you once said Arjuna could have been his son or something like that because of the bond they shared

People assassinate Prime Ministers without being implicated, there have been so many assassinations and political murders for me to believe that a Kingdom with so much power couldn't kill 5 kids, There's no logical reason for them to fail, if they wanted to do it, Kunti and Vidur may have been sharp but not powerful, they weren't powerful enough to come out openly and say that Dury poisoned Bhima

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Read Chhiillli's response. He wanted Hastinapur to be a Yadav ally while the latter are in their imperial campaign

Definitely he wouldn't want to have an enimity with them by trying to annex their land

He was raising Parikshit and even Abhimanyu as a support to his heir and not as a imperial candidate

Let take this one by one.

He was raising abhimanyu and latter his son so that they can ally with his heir - vajra right??

And before the campaign could begin yadava massacre happened right and krishna died ?? Right .

And we are believing that prativindhya had sons and grandsons right??

Then the question arises that why didn't yudhishtra crowned his grandson i.e, prativindhya s son as king to hastinapur after him?? That has been my question all along.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

@FlauntPessimism -

Yes, After Drona Arjuna became useful to Hastinapur but Arjuna had a bond with Bhishma since his childhood before he went to Gurukul, I don't think Bhishma had any reason to fake the love and bonding with Arjuna, he didn't know Arjuna will go on to achieve so many things

I remember you once said Arjuna could have been his son or something like that because of the bond they shared

People assassinate Prime Ministers without being implicated, there have been so many assassinations and political murders for me to believe that a Kingdom with so much power couldn't kill 5 kids, There's no logical reason for them to fail, if they wanted to do it, Kunti and Vidur may have been sharp but not powerful, they weren't powerful enough to come out openly and say that Dury poisoned Bhima

Yes I used to think so till the time I didn't read and analyse further. Aside even if there was a close bond it was only with Arjun. Maybe he wasn't much for Arjun's death, since anyway being younger to Duryodhan, and even Dushy he was very less of a threat to them. Anyhow with two sons already dead (had they succeeded), Kunti would have herself removed Arjun from any contendership or at least that's what majority would have thought.

Bheeshm didn't have much time before DronAshram anyway and Kunti Vidur were over cautious to save them. DronAshram again a Brahmin area where Bheeshm had very limited influence.

And even if I agree Vidur n Kunti were not strong enough to blame Duryodhan, but what stopped them from saying that Bheem was poisoned and they have no idea who did that? In any neutral house (not even a palace) if the patriarch is neutral the mere poisoning of a grandson would be taken very seriously