Karna: Does He Deserve So Much Respect??[DT Note Page 15] - Page 7

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amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#61

Originally posted by: bheegi

@Amrita, you always do a great job of presenting both sides of the story. You must be a good debater in real life :)


Just like you, I've vacillated in my impression of Karna. The more I read, the more I feel Karna's character can be seen both through the prism of a hero and an anti hero. His character is a writer's delight and just proves what a brilliant writer Ved Vyas was.

He's also one of the most real characters of the epic. In the this day and age, one can see many Karna like characters around us. Are they bad or good? Are they heroes or villains? Are they black or white? It depends on the perspective.

Thank u so much Bheegi...
Actually I have debated only twice in my life...And they were just minor, unimportant ones...But thanks for the compliment. 😳
Karna's character can be judged in different ways based on the perspectives of the readers.
People tend to love those characters of Mahabharat, with whom they relate more.
I relate more with Draupadi ( not that I want 5 husbands). 😆
And some people relate more with Karna.
Anyway, thanks for being so patient, and reading my looonnnggg post and commenting on it.
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#62

Originally posted by: Krishnaa_Nair

Awesome post amrita!!

a great analysis n yes you did come up with the same questions i had!!!

i too adore karna!!
i feel that karna and drau stands at the same status of complex characters and both are mistakenly interpreted!!
both have suffered and both had strength to come out of it with glorious colours!!

n yes i too have found commedds in facebook and all saying the bloddy bitch drau deserves 100 slaps for rejecting the golden heart...
n some even said she should have been raped!!

i was shocked to read this as it came from a female itself tht a girl deserves to be raped for rejecting a person!!

but yes there are noble karna fans who says wat he said to panchali was not ryt!!

so many ppl come in to these fan pages n drown themselves without even knowing the real truth!! most of them have only read or heard abt POV books..

i've also not read KMG!! (actually planning to read it now only!! i cant take in Shakespearean language!! ) i'm some wat well versed in geetha though, i think geetha too holds answers to some of the above said "mistakes n wrong doings" of Karna (not juz karna but of all, i juz took his name coz he is the man under discussion!!!)

well written amrita!!! hats off!!!
hope all learn something from these n have a good perspective abt facts!!!


Thanks Krishnaa_Nair...😊
I too have read such horrible, misogynistic comments on Facebook pages of Mahabharat.
"Draupadi should be raped", "She was characterless",etc.
If a man has 4-5 wives, it's alright. But if a woman has multiple husbands, then she's a prostitute.
And if she dares to reject a man for marriage, then she deserves to be raped. 😡
This is the kind of mentality, which many people have.
No wonder, so many rapes occur in our country.😡
And the worst part is, most of these people are women.
Anyway, coming back to Karna, I completely agree with u on this that both Karna and Draupadi had similar lives.
Both faced humiliation. One for caste, and one for following her mother-in-law's orders.
Both were proud of themselves. One for his warrior skills, and one for her beauty and stature.
Both were sharp-tongued, thanks to the bitter experiences, they had.
However, they stood on opposite grounds due to destiny.
Thanks for commenting. 😊
ElMystique thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#63


"Vaisampayana said, 'O chastiser of all foes, listen to me, O monarch, as I recite the (history of the) burning of the house of lac and the escape of the Pandavas. The wicked Duryodhana, beholding Bhimasena surpass (everybody) in strength and Arjuna highly accomplished in arms became pensive and sad. Then Karna,😲 the offspring of the Sun, and Sakuni, the son of Suvala, endeavoured by various means to compass the death of the Pandavas.😲😲😲
WHY did they have to plan???😕😕
--------------------------------
"Dussasana said, 'O uncle of great intelligence, it is even as thou sayest! The words of wisdom thou utterest always recommend themselves to me!
"Karna said, 'O Duryodhana, all of us seek to accomplish thy will and, O king, I see that unanimity at present prevaileth among us! The sons of Pandu, with passions under complete control, will never return without passing away the promised period. If, however, they do return from failing sense, do thou defeat them again at dice.'
We should, therefore, do what is agreeable to him! But we are not always able to seek his welfare with promptness and activity (owing to our dependence on Dhritarashtra)! But let us now, encased in mail and armed with our weapons, mount our cars and go in a body to slay the Pandavas now living in the forest! After the Pandavas have been quieted and after they have gone on the unknown journey, both ourselves and the sons of Dhritarashtra will find peace! 😃😃
As long as they are in distress, as long as they are in sorrow, as long as they are destitute of help, so long are we a match for them! This is my mind!'😲
-------------------------------------


The wielder of the Gandiva and Vrikodara, when angry, are like Yama and Kala themselves; scattering their shafts, which are like unto thunder-bolts, they exterminate in battle the ranks of the enemy. Alas Duryodhana, and Sakuni, and the Suta's son, and Dussasana also of wicked soul, in robbing the Pandavas of their kingdom by means of dice, seem to behold the honey alone without marking the terrible ruin.
------------------------------


among the gods in heaven! Surrounded by the Kurus, O king, like Yama by the Rudra, or Vasava by the Maruts, thou shinest, O monarch, like the Moon among the stars! Let us, therefore, O king, go and look at the sons of Pandu--them who are now divested of prosperity, them who never obeyed commands, them who never owed subjection! It hath been heard by us, O monarch, that the Pandavas are now living on the banks of the lake called Dwaitavana, with a multitude of Brahmanas, having the wilderness for their home. Go thither, O king, in all thy prosperity, scorching the son of Pandu with a sight of thy glory, like the Sun scorching everything with his hot rays! Thyself a sovereign and they divested of sovereignty, thyself in prosperity and they divested of it, thyself possessing affluence and they in poverty, behold now, O king, the sons of Pandu. Let the sons of Pandu behold thee like Yayati, the son of Nahusha, accompanied by a large train of followers and enjoying bliss that is great. O king, that blazing Prosperity which is seen by both one's friends and foes, is regarded as well-bestowed! What happiness can be more complete than that which he enjoyeth who while himself in prosperity, looketh upon his foes in adversity, like a person on the hill top looking down upon another crawling on the earth?😲😲

O tiger among kings, the happiness that one derives from beholding his foes in grief, is greater than what one may derive from the acquisition of offering or wealth or kingdom! What happiness will not be his who, himself in affluence, will cast his eyes on Dhananjaya attired in barks and deer-skins? 😲😲

Let thy wife dressed in costly robes look at the woeful Krishna clad in barks and deer-skins, and enhance the latter's grief! Let the daughter of Drupada reproach herself and her life, divested as she is of wealth, for the sorrow that she will feel upon beholding thy wife decked in ornaments will be far greater than what she had felt in the midst of the assembly (when Dussasana had dragged her there)!"😲😲

Vaisampayana continued, "Having thus spoken unto the king, Karna and Sakuni both remained silent,


Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#64

Originally posted by: amritat

That's exactly what I replied to Vrish.
He was probably not the mastermind of the Lakshagriha plot, but he was involved in it.
Whether u say that "he went with it" or whether I say that "he was involved in it", either way, he was a participant.
As for Arjun's threat to Karna, well I think I explained with my own perspective to riti4u as to y I think Karna's hatred for a little too much. You can read it if u want.
Well, even if his hatred for Arjun and Bhima was justified, then wat about Yudisthir?
If I'm not mistaken, then Yudisthir did not insult Karna.
What about Kunti?
Why were they almost burnt too?
So, u see, I am not directly pointing at Karna or putting the whole blame on him. Ofcourse Duryodhan was much worse and much, much more involved in the House of Lac plotting.
Karna was only a supporter.
But the thing is, being an ex-"Karnali", I really expected a lot more from Karna. I never accuse Duryodhan for showing his thigh to Draupadi. Bcoz, he was stamped evil, mostly.
But Karna was different. And it's bcoz of this that we try to analyse "why he did this" and "why he did that". Bcoz we expect a lot from him.
Finally, thanks for taking out your time for reading this long post, and commenting on it. 😊



i know there is a double standards when it comes to what Krishna said himself but regarding the lac house conspiracy --

The wicked-souled Karna is the root, O thou of unfading glory, of that attempt, O sinless one, made in the night for burning thy mother with all her children, and of that conduct which Suyodhana adopted towards you in consequence of that match at dice. Suyodhana always hopeth for deliverance through Karna. Filled with rage, he endeavours to afflict me also (in consequence of that support). It is the firm belief of Dhritarashtra's royal son, O giver of honours, that Karna, without doubt, will slay all the Prithas in battle. Though fully acquainted with thy might, still, O son of Kunti, Dhritarashtra's son hath selected war with you in consequence of his reliance on Karna. Karna also always says, 'I will vanquish the assembled Parthas and that mighty car-warrior, viz., Vasudeva of Dasharha's race'. Buoying up the wicked-souled son of Dhritarashtra, the wicked Karna always roareth in the (Kuru) assembly. Slay him today, O Bharata. In all the acts of injury, of which Dhritarashtra's son hath been guilty towards you, the wicked-souled Karna of sinful understanding hath been the leader.

I saw the heroic son of Subhadra of eyes like those of a bull, slain by six mighty car-warriors of cruel heart belonging to the Dhritarashtra army. Grinding those bulls among men, viz., Drona, Drona's son, Kripa and other heroes, he deprived elephants of their riders and mighty car-warriors of their cars.

The bull-necked Abhimanyu, that spreader of the fame of both the Kurus and the Vrishnis, deprived steeds also of their riders and foot-soldiers of weapons and life. Routing the (Kaurava) divisions and afflicting many mighty car-warriors, he despatched innumerable men and steeds and elephants to Yama's abode. I swear by Truth to thee, O friend, that my limbs are burning at the thought that while the son of Subhadra was thus advancing, consuming the hostile army with his shafts, even on that occasion the wicked-souled Karna was engaged in acts of hostility to that hero, O lord! Unable, O Partha, to stay in that battle before Abhimanyu's face, mangled with the shafts of Subhadra's son, deprived of consciousness, and bathed in blood, Karna drew deep breaths, inflamed with rage. At last, afflicted with arrows, he was obliged to turn his back upon the field. Eagerly desirous of flying away and becoming hopeless of life, he stayed for some time in battle, perfectly stupefied and exhausted with the wounds he had received. At last hearing those cruel words of Drona in battle--words that were suited to the hour--Karna cut off Abhimanyu's bow. Made bowless by him in that battle, five great car-warriors then, well-versed in the ways of foul warfare, slew that hero with showers of shafts. Upon the slaughter of that hero, grief entered the heart of everyone. Only, the wicked-souled Karna and Suyodhana laughed in joy. (Thou rememberest also) the harsh and bitter words that Karna cruelly said unto Krishna in the (Kuru) assembly, in the presence of the Pandavas and Kurus, 'The Pandavas, O Krishna, are dead! They have sunk into eternal hell! O thou of large hips, choose other lords now, O thou of sweet speeches! Enter now the abode of Dhritarashtra as a serving woman, for, O thou of curving eye-lashes, thy husbands are no more! The Pandavas will not, O Krishna, be of any service to thee today! Thou art the wife of men that are slaves, O princess of Pancala, and thou art thyself, O beautiful lady, a slave! Today only Duryodhana is regarded as the one king on earth; all other kings of the world are worshipping the agency by which his administration is kept up. Behold now, O amiable one, how all the sons of Pandu have equally fallen! Overwhelmed by the energy of Dhritarashtra's son, they are now silently eyeing one another.



Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#65

Originally posted by: Brishti_Sarkar

@Watcher my point is she can but if she would say "I don't want to marry him, just because I am not feeling like it." that was not something to be done in Dwapar Yug. She said that she does not want to marry a Suta-putra. If a Rajkumar is called a Rajkumar, Suta putra is called that. And it is true that Karna belonged to a lower caste. She said she will not marry a man belonging to a cast lower to her. And can you post citations of Karna being invited to Draupadi's Swayamvar.?
And what big deal in refusing him when he is about to hit? So she was late in saying? Okay, accepted she was late. So?
But I am saying after all, is it not true that Karna was as known to all at that time, a Sutaputra? Panchaali was a Kshatriya princess. So, he was rejected.


The citation which is usually passed around as invitation also mentions Krishna, Balram, Satyaki Pradyumna(Krishnas son) and guess what Akrur ji ---- oh, and none of them took part in the swayamvar😆😆
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#66

Originally posted by: riti4u

If I say draupadi was wrong in her swayamvar , your friends would have hundred reasons to defend and justify her act. But with mine saying draupadi was wrong...how would you say I justified Karna's act.. or put blame of VH on draupadi?
Nothing takes away from the pain of woman getting insulted in that way publicly ..and you take my word for it dear...coz i am hard core feminist too at heart...and probably dont need to justify that aspect of mine...coz I might be viewed with suspicion there.
It did hurt me that you took mention of draupadi's comment of Sutputra in such an extreme way which was definately not the intent of anyone who mentioned. But anyways i do respect your views on it..
Probably in a way you showed me how sensitive things are for people and how they really can take things far .. I dont intend to hurt you... thus when I saw you getting hurt...I felt bad and thus chatted.. Please dont get offended .My intent is not to offend anyone...

I kind of agree with Nivu here.
It is true that Draupadi's "Sutaputra" comment is highlighted a lot.
I understand she hurt Karna. I understand that her manner was wrong.
But still people behave as if, Karna's whole life got ruined, bcoz she called him a "Sutaputra".
That is too much.
As far as Draupadi' Vastraharan, it cannot be denied that Draupadi's whole life got altered bcoz of that. Ofcourse not only Karna, but Shakuni, duryodhan, Dushasen, and even her "mighty" husbands were responsible too.
Bcoz, of Yudisthir's obsession with Dharma, they lost everything.
And due to the same reason, along with Duryodhan's intentions, Karna's cruel words, and Dushasen's audacity, Draupadi faced the worst day of her life.
One thing led to the other, and this event, including the loss of kingdom, led to the war, where she lost all her children.
But I guess no one here was justifying her Vastraharan. So, I am glad that the misunderstandings got cleared. 😊
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#67
As I said, they were too invited in the swayamvar but taking part was upto one's will, Brishti asked if Karna was invited, Yes, he was invited.
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#68
It was not only Karna who bathed in blood but Abhimanyu too.

" Phalguni's son once more pierced Karna in the car with a barbed arrow, and for angering him still further, he pierced him with fifty other shafts. The son of Radha pierced Abhimanyu in return with as many shafts. Covered all over with arrows, Abhimanyu, then, O sire, looked exceedingly beautiful. Filled with rage, he caused Karna also to be bathed in blood. Mangled with arrows and covered with blood, the brave Karna also shone greatly. 2 Both of them pierced with arrows, both bathed in blood, "


Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#69
amrita I loved ur analysis! I have read kmg in bits and parts because of language as well as time! one thing I noted mb text doesnot potray human emotions like I have usually perceived! its written in straight manner. its people who find out meaning in several lines and interpret it accordingly. like if something has always bothered me and I find something similar in epic too I automatically connect! after reading a bit of kmg, to b honest I really feel I am reading something different, a novel whose characters are only real in book.not at all like I always imagined them. what I meant to say that several books written on mb always develop story around the incidents from mb with their emotions involved.
coming back to karna, I have not been much attentive to him while watching brc(which was my first encounter with mb,other than the book I read in some class). i bever formed any like or dislike towards him, like most mb characters.till now i am not crazy for any character, though i respect and admire few traits of many characters.
after sp mb started I too joined fb pages(which was the first ever serial page I joined) and the comments there made me allergic to karna(though I havenot been arjun or pandava admirer). I donot say arjun fans were not abusive many times but mostly it was the other side. second thing that made me allergic was craziness😛 these guys were crazy for karna. in IF I remember when karna discussion forum came into existence. I was skeptical because it was karna fan area.should I go or not. when karna AT came into existence I read the first page and I found it balanced view. I thought not all are crazy 😛 so I tried to b a part of it. so IF mostly have been a much better place for me regarding mb than various social sites. still in fb I mostly avoid commenting, but I love IF.
ElMystique thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#70



What joy can be greater, O Karna, that will be mine upon beholding the daughter of Drupada dressed in red rags in the woods? If king Yudhishthira and Bhima, the sons of Pandu, behold me graced with great affluence, then only shall I have attained the great end of my life! I do not, however, see the means by which I may repair to those woods, by which, in fact, I may obtain the king's permission to go thither! Contrive thou, therefore, some skilful plan, with Suvala's son and Dussasana, by which we may go to those woods! I also, making up my mind today as to whether I should go or not, approach the presence of the king tomorrow. And when I shall be sitting with Bhishma--that best of the Kurus--thou wilt, with Sakuni propose the pretext which thou mayst have contrived. Hearing then the words of Bhishma and of the king on the subject of our journey, I will settle everything beseeching our grandfather.

"Saying; 'So be it,' they then all went away to their respective quarters. And as soon as the night had passed away, Karna came to the king. And coming to him, Karna smilingly spoke unto Duryodhana, saying, 'A plan hath been contrived by me.

Poor shakuni mama he is blamed for planning and executing the party and show off in dwaitawana😆

Listen to it, O lord of men! Our herds are now waiting in the woods ofDwaitavana in expectation of thee! Without doubt, we may all go there under the pretext of supervising our cattle stations, for, O monarch, it is proper that kings should frequently repair to their cattle stations. If this be the motive put forth, thy father, O prince, will certainly grant thee permission!' And while Duryodhana and Karna were thus conversing laughingly, Sakuni addressed them and said, 'This plan, free from difficulties, was what I also saw for going thither! The king will certainly grant us permission, or even send us thither of his own accord. Our herds are now all waiting in the woods of Dwaitavana expecting thee. Without doubt, we may all go there under the pretext of supervising our cattle stations!'

"They then all three laughed together, and gave their hands unto one another. And having arrived at that conclusion, they went to see the chief of Kurus."

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