'Mahabharat- Different Versions -Perspectives' - Page 46

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Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: shindes

Hi Ashwini, yes I have. I am a Mahabharata fan and try to devour anything related to it. Durga Bhagwat was a renowned scholar; but I do disagree with her on many points. She writes more like a fan than an analyzer. In that respect, Irawati was much more dispassionate and incisive.


I have been trying to lay my hands on that book, but to no avail. I had heard that Karve had 'borrowed' some of her arguments from Bhagwat's analysis, but don't know how true it is.

I absolutely enjoyed 'Yuganta' for the same reasons you have mentioned. Was looking to read 'Vyasparva' for the same reasons, but I guess fro what you have said, I'll have to keep my expectations a bit lower.
Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago
Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: bheegi

@Shindes...is there an English or Hindi translation of Vyasparva?


I unfortunately did not come across an English or Hindi translation of that book when I was looking for it.
Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
I would like to share a part of an article, which offers an interesting perspective into Star Plus's Mahabharat. It is by Jai Arjun Singh, a published author, noted film critic and self confessed Mahabharat aficionado with several articles on the epic on his blog. Please note that it just a perspective and not intended to offend any sentiments, religious or otherwise.

I have written before about the smug certitudes that so often accompany religious belief, and the sophistry/cherry-picking inherent in the thought process that goes: "THIS is what the scriptures really meant, and it's all good and clean and pure and exactly as I want it to be. Anything else - anything that makes me uncomfortable, or doesn't fit the accepted moralities of today, or makes the Gods seem imperfect, or even vaguely suggests that those old books may have been a product of their age rather than containing unassailable wisdom and truth for all time - any such thing HAS to be a flawed reading, or a later corruption of the text. Or, wait, it can be interpreted THIS way, which makes everything okay again."

This thought process isn't limited to those whom we can conveniently label "fanatics". Some generally intelligent people I know, including some who aren't especially religious, often bring up that beautiful, soothing - and nonsensical - idea that all religions "in essence" or "in their original form" teach love, universal brotherhood, tolerance and non-violence. A cursory reading of the major works of ancient literature shows how bizarre this claim is. But of course, once you know, with absolute certainty, that they really are all divine texts, that so-and-so really WAS a God, and that Gods by definition are good and all-knowing and so on, it becomes easy to rationalise anything.

I had an email conversation with a friend today - it touched briefly on the Doniger episode, but it began as a discussion of the new TV Mahabharat, which (no surprise) depicts Krishna as a forever-in-control avatar, constantly manipulating events towards the Greater Good, interfering in every scene to such a degree that you feel all the other characters could easily have been played by mannequins with little strings attached to them. Compared to this beacon in man-shape, even the Krishna of the B R Chopra serial - a fairly populist show in its time - was a flawed, sometimes conflicted, likably human character.

Anyway, I was telling my friend about the new show's whitewashing of nearly every dubious action performed by the "good guys", the Pandavas and Draupadi, how it glibly stacks the cards in their favour, and against those who are on the side of "adharma". There is a scene at Draupadi's swayamvara where Krishna meets Karna for the first time and tells him something like, "If you don't get respect - sammaan - it means you have not followed the path of dharma." Karna asks "But what about someone who has never known respect, right from his earliest days?" and to this Krishna smiles sweetly and wags his finger and says "Oh, in that case, you must strive all your life for respect. But don't do it by siding with adharma."

One gets the gist of what is being said, and even buys into it to a degree if one is hung up on the Bhakti Tradition Krishna and the Mahabharata-as-Morality-Tale. And I'm not suggesting that the injustices done to Karna be used to justify or even gloss over the wrongs he participates in. But this scene (and there are others like it) presents such a simple-minded view of what is good and what is bad, and such an undermining of lived experience. As I told my friend on email, if this Krishna travelled to modern-day Delhi and met an autorickshaw driver who had just been smacked hard by a rich kid in a BMW because their vehicles had grazed each other, he'd probably say the same thing with the same expression.

She replied: "That is what I find so fearfully disturbing about the [...] discourses of today: they all conspire (consciously or otherwise) to vindicate a certain hierarchy by transforming it into benevolent, enlightened patriarchy, striving to achieve everyone's well-being. Poppycock." Well said. There are so many versions of this benevolent patriarchy. ("Yes, yes, we believe in freedom of speech too," they say with indulgent smiles, "But, you know, this will hurt so many feelings. Couldn't you avoid writing it?") And we see a form of it in the objections to books like Doniger's, by people who want a single, standardised, comforting version of things, with nothing that will rock any boats.


If possible, I would recommend going through some of the comments to the blog too.

Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago
DrShindeSweety thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Ashwini_D

I would like to share a part of an article, which offers an interesting perspective into Star Plus's Mahabharat. It is by Jai Arjun Singh, a published author, noted film critic and self confessed Mahabharat aficionado with several articles on the epic on his blog. Please note that it just a perspective and not intended to offend any sentiments, religious or otherwise.


I have written before about the smug certitudes that so often accompany religious belief, and the sophistry/cherry-picking inherent in the thought process that goes: "THIS is what the scriptures really meant, and it's all good and clean and pure and exactly as I want it to be. Anything else - anything that makes me uncomfortable, or doesn't fit the accepted moralities of today, or makes the Gods seem imperfect, or even vaguely suggests that those old books may have been a product of their age rather than containing unassailable wisdom and truth for all time - any such thing HAS to be a flawed reading, or a later corruption of the text. Or, wait, it can be interpreted THIS way, which makes everything okay again."

This thought process isn't limited to those whom we can conveniently label "fanatics". Some generally intelligent people I know, including some who aren't especially religious, often bring up that beautiful, soothing - and nonsensical - idea that all religions "in essence" or "in their original form" teach love, universal brotherhood, tolerance and non-violence. A cursory reading of the major works of ancient literature shows how bizarre this claim is. But of course, once you know, with absolute certainty, that they really are all divine texts, that so-and-so really WAS a God, and that Gods by definition are good and all-knowing and so on, it becomes easy to rationalise anything.

I had an email conversation with a friend today - it touched briefly on the Doniger episode, but it began as a discussion of the new TV Mahabharat, which (no surprise) depicts Krishna as a forever-in-control avatar, constantly manipulating events towards the Greater Good, interfering in every scene to such a degree that you feel all the other characters could easily have been played by mannequins with little strings attached to them. Compared to this beacon in man-shape, even the Krishna of the B R Chopra serial - a fairly populist show in its time - was a flawed, sometimes conflicted, likably human character.

Anyway, I was telling my friend about the new show's whitewashing of nearly every dubious action performed by the "good guys", the Pandavas and Draupadi, how it glibly stacks the cards in their favour, and against those who are on the side of "adharma". There is a scene at Draupadi's swayamvara where Krishna meets Karna for the first time and tells him something like, "If you don't get respect - sammaan - it means you have not followed the path of dharma." Karna asks "But what about someone who has never known respect, right from his earliest days?" and to this Krishna smiles sweetly and wags his finger and says "Oh, in that case, you must strive all your life for respect. But don't do it by siding with adharma."

One gets the gist of what is being said, and even buys into it to a degree if one is hung up on the Bhakti Tradition Krishna and the Mahabharata-as-Morality-Tale. And I'm not suggesting that the injustices done to Karna be used to justify or even gloss over the wrongs he participates in. But this scene (and there are others like it) presents such a simple-minded view of what is good and what is bad, and such an undermining of lived experience. As I told my friend on email, if this Krishna travelled to modern-day Delhi and met an autorickshaw driver who had just been smacked hard by a rich kid in a BMW because their vehicles had grazed each other, he'd probably say the same thing with the same expression.

She replied: "That is what I find so fearfully disturbing about the [...] discourses of today: they all conspire (consciously or otherwise) to vindicate a certain hierarchy by transforming it into benevolent, enlightened patriarchy, striving to achieve everyone's well-being. Poppycock." Well said. There are so many versions of this benevolent patriarchy. ("Yes, yes, we believe in freedom of speech too," they say with indulgent smiles, "But, you know, this will hurt so many feelings. Couldn't you avoid writing it?") And we see a form of it in the objections to books like Doniger's, by people who want a single, standardised, comforting version of things, with nothing that will rock any boats.


If possible, I would recommend going through some of the comments to the blog too.

I also happen to be one of the commentators on that blog post.
IN my view, the author reduces it to a too simplistic 'rich vs poor thing' plot.
What if the 'poor rickshaw driver's son' repeatedly partook in heinous plots against the BMW kid? Does he still earn pardon just for being poor? Does it give him sanction to abuse, taunt, participate and encourage plots of poisoning and burning alive the BMW kid; OR sanction to abuse the BMW kid's wife?
IF the author means 'suffering in penury' , then Arjun lived for the major chunk of his life in exile and forests as compared to the 'poor rickshaw driver's son' who sat on a throne for the major chunk of his life merely for wagging his tail at another BMW kid.
DrShindeSweety thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Ashwini_D


I unfortunately did not come across an English or Hindi translation of that book when I was looking for it.

Unfortunately neither have I.
Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: shindes

I also happen to be one of the commentators on that blog post.

IN my view, the author reduces it to a too simplistic 'rich vs poor thing' plot.
What if the 'poor rickshaw driver's son' repeatedly partook in heinous plots against the BMW kid? Does he still earn pardon just for being poor? Does it give him sanction to abuse, taunt, participate and encourage plots of poisoning and burning alive the BMW kid; OR sanction to abuse the BMW kid's wife?
IF the author means 'suffering in penury' , then Arjun lived for the major chunk of his life in exile and forests as compared to the 'poor rickshaw driver's son' who sat on a throne for the major chunk of his life merely for wagging his tail at another BMW kid.


You have valid points there. I cannot comment on the author's intent, but the way I see it, the main thrust of the post was on Krishna's depiction as the know-it-all, controlling figure in screen adaptations. Here Karna's example is only incidental, used to make a bigger point. Granted, the epic depicts Krishna as divine, which also has a lot of philosophical underpinnings, but most screen adaptations go beyond that and reduce the other characters to mere puppets in Krishna's hands, which is not the case in the epic.

Having read some of his other blog posts, where he mentions being a Karna-fan in childhood, I think the Karna bias is quite obvious in the above post as well.
Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
ashwi sorry I could not understand what author wanted to conclude? can u simplify it to me?
riti4u thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
@Ashwini_D- thanks for sharing that write up .. it got me into thinking mode..and I thought of sharing my views on it. What I believe is that there are some things that go with our faith and belief and sometimes it is just too hard to let it go.. Why is that hard..? A part of us will resist change in thinking prevalent from generation to generation.. that is natural reaction of every change that happens in our life and other part will try to seek that invisible force and somewhere his existence which is thriving force..which gives us ultimate hope in life... People would generally like to believe that those who were being wronged in this epic did no wrong to others and others end justify their deeds... They would like to believe it that when God chose to support pandavas ...then pandavas are obvious all good with no fault .. And thus even if epic depicts their follies quite openly to a logical mind... somewhere our beliefs ,our faith takes us back to those perception which gives benefit of doubt to "right" ones. Sometimes just for sake of our survival ...just for a sake of that glimmer of hope in humanity ..we tend to believe in divine force and his actions...his plans.. Since this article you shared pointed to that Karna-Krishna conversation, Krishna is obviously right in saying that one can strive for respect but not side with adharma or wrong doers.. I have a different example here to quote with it.. Few days back I was watching a movie.. where a small boy picks up a gun and fire at a person .. Though boy was just doing that in his defence..and was doing this after prolonged humiliation he suffers...but he was wrong there and no justification counters that argument however who was responsible for his actions..-We can argue on that definately ... As he choses wrong path which inspite of him being all good hearted soul kills him in the end... We do feel sorry for the boy ..but in the end... his death seems justified.. it gives you lesson that even in times when our patience..our choices are being tested with destiny..what we choose does make difference... Either we stick to our morals and continue our struggle for respect ,honor.. or we choose easy way of gaining respect which somehow leads us to darker future ..Sorry for long post... Just some thoughts came in mind which i thought to share here...
Edited by riti4u - 11 years ago
bheegi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
@Ashwini...interesting article. It's intellectually stimulating to discuss such issues regarding faith and religion but if one looks at the bigger picture keeping in mind the larger sections of the society, such simplistic views on good vs bad, faith vs lack of belief are needed to drive the point home

Majority of people need to see things in black and white. Most have a hard time seeing grey and interpreting things based on the subtlety of moral principles.

Even Ved Vyas said Dharma is subtle...but how many people really understand that?

That's why I've no issues with the messages imparted by Krishna in this MB...yes they are simplistic and sometimes conflicting but most of us need that bigger picture when deciding what's right and what's not.
DrShindeSweety thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: bheegi

@Ashwini...interesting article. It's intellectually stimulating to discuss such issues regarding faith and religion but if one looks at the bigger picture keeping in mind the larger sections of the society, such simplistic views on good vs bad, faith vs lack of belief are needed to drive the point home


Majority of people need to see things in black and white. Most have a hard time seeing grey and interpreting things based on the subtlety of moral principles.

Even Ved Vyas said Dharma is subtle...but how many people really understand that?

That's why I've no issues with the messages imparted by Krishna in this MB...yes they are simplistic and sometimes conflicting but most of us need that bigger picture when deciding what's right and what's not.

For those who admire Krishn, his sentence can be interpreted as , 'Strive to earn respect rather than expect it to fall in your lap.' If one does not admire Krishn, they will distort it out of proportion anyways.
I agree with the 'puppet element' that creeps into most retellings. I think it stems from Bhagwad Gita's claim of 'I am the Supreme controller'.
Gurcharan Das (the Difficulty of being Good) counter-questions this faith by saying, "If God wishes to prevent evil, but cannot,; then it makes him impotent. If he does not wish to prevent evil, that makes him wicked. '

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