Suryadeva, Rishi Durvasa and abandonment - what should they have done? - Page 12

Originally posted by: JanakiRaghunath

Yes, I know the maiden-born son is a type of heir and kinsmen, but society did not recognize this back then. Duryodhan was reluctant to accept the Pandavas, who were born while Pandu was alive, and I think he represented a lot of what society believed back then, because Duryodhan also had supporters who doubted the Pandavas' right to be heirs. I doubt this society would have accepted Karna with open arms.

Originally posted by: -Shruti

Agreed that Kunti can't be blamed alone for abandoning Karna when he was born. Perhaps anyone else would have done something similar in that particular situation. But sage Durvasa and Surya Dev were mature enough to figure out the resulting consequences and I feel they are to be blamed. It was sage Durvasa's responsibility to warn Kunti regarding the boon he blessed her with. Surya Dev too...holds some responsibility!

So the abandonment can be justified a bit. But she's to be blamed later on, when she identified her first born in the Rangbhoomi.

Originally posted by: riti4u

Well I have already listed out this here in this post many times...it was not that she had to announce it publicly...All she had to do was have a private conversation with karna...like she had during war ...or similar way have it with pandavas telling them about karna... They cud have atleast known that then n there..instead of letting whole world know about it... She was too late in telling karna... when Karna could not leave side of Dury..

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Medha

I think your ages are mistaken. Drona himself was said to be 85 at the time of the war. The Pandavas would have been in their 50s, and so would Karna. There wouldn't have been a 50 year freindship b/w Duryodhan & Karna.

Also, I don't think anybody ever condones what Karna did in the dice sabha, so I'm not getting why it's continually brought up. When Krishna met Karna, the latter mentioned that he regretted what he had done to Draupadi:

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Karna never knew that Kunti was his mother, wasn't interested or curious about it, and had no issues w/ being the son of Adiratha/Radha.

I don't think you get why Kunti gets all the opprobrium. It's well deserved, and here's why

• After the tournament, even if she was at a loss of what to do then, she had ample opportunities to fix things: she was no longer a kid. It's not like she never had any private moments w/ her sons. She could have sent for Karna privately and revealed to him the circumstances that she had to abandon him, and request him not to make enemies of her other sons. In lieu of that, she could have offered him a respectable status within the family, at least as her acknowledged son, if not Pandu's. Similarly, she could also have summoned Pandu's 5 sons and told them who Karna really was, and that they should apologize to him. At that stage, Karna was not in Duryodhan's debt - he could easily have thanked him, returned Anga, and join Yudisthir in his attempts to bridge the gap b/w the Pandavas & Kauravas
• Since she made no attempts to do that, she had no business approaching him at all. The only reason she approached him b4 the war was one of 2 possibilities, depending on how charitably one wants to look at her
• She wanted to save her other 5 sons from him, knowing that he was the only one capable of killing them. She didn't care about him at all
• She wanted to demoralize him (like Krishna did) by revealing to him this secret (she didn't know that Krishna had already done it for her) so that while her other sons would fight him wholeheartedly, he'd fight them less willingly than he was to date
• She wanted to give him his rightful part of Pandu's inheritance.
• Since she had given him nothing throughout his life, approaching him like a beggar particularly reflects badly on her, given that in the war, every one else - all her bahus (except Chitrangada) had lost their sons, but she didn't lose any of hers, thanks to Karna's gift. But she apparently had no issues w/ her grandsons getting killed - be they the Pandava sons, or Karna's.

The point that Karna sympathizers have is that if Kunti wanted Karna to recognize her as a mother, the least that he deserved from her was her caring about him. But the truth is - notwithstanding all the serials - that she never did. Given that fact, which is hard to contradict based on the evidence, Kunti had no business approaching Karna for anything.

Another thing - as a kshatrani, Kunti knew that one of the duties of her sons was to fight & die in battle. Far more innocent warriors than her sons, who might have had a bright future had they survived, died - Sveta, Uttar, Abhimanyu, Iravana, Kshatradharma, et al. So what was so special about her that all her sons had to be kept alive after the war, even if they lost each of their kids? What sort of a grandmother was she? Since her sons were kshatriyas, they ran the risk of dying in battle. Did Draupadi, Subhadra, or anyone else approach the killers of their sons b4 the war begging them not to kill their sons?

It's true that people sympathize w/ Karna for being discarded as a newborn. It's also true that he had loving parents in Adiratha & Radha. But that would be relevant in today's society, not that era's. It's the equivalent of a baby being born to a millionaire, being put up for adoption and adopted out to a family that can barely pay for his livelihood. Let's say that that kid grows up and through his own genius becomes a tycoon that then competes w/ and puts his biological parent's company in the red. Would the birth parents of that kid then have the right to go to him, reveal his original parentage and then beg him not to do a leveraged buyout of their disintegrating business empire?

Remember, Karna had to put up w/ being insulted as a sutaputra, not merely being called one. He was denied knowledge of the Brahmashira even though it was given to Arjun, just on the basis of caste. For those who think that he didn't have the right temperament, neither did Ashwatthama, but Drona gave it to the latter b'cos he was a Brahmin Dhritarashtra. Honestly, does anybody believe that had Karna successfully remembered and used the Brahmashira against Arjun in a manner similarly to Ashwatthama, that he would have diverted it at the wombs of the Pandava womenfolk? I for one don't for a minute, b'cos Karna was nowhere as vile as Ashwatthama, as Bheeshma & Drona apologists might like to believe.

Nonetheless, despite getting nothing from Kunti, Karna did the best he could from what he learnt from both Drona & Parashurama, and as a result, not only did he get Anga as a gift from Duryodhan, he also got Champa/Malini as a gift from Jarasandha. So he was hardly complaining. But one can blame Kunti for Karna not being eligible to even contest for Draupadi (she'd still have had the rights to choose if both Karna & Arjun had successfully won the competition).

In short, Kunti was not judged for merely abandoning Karna, that by itself would have been fine. If you notice, nobody ever blames Vishwamitra & Menaka for abandoning Shakuntala. What makes Kunti a real loser is her going back to that son that she abandoned and begging him to spare her other sons' lives. As a kshatrani, she should have been willing to risk losing all her sons, as far more innocent women than her in the war did. 😡

P.S. Re-reading your post, I recognize that you're trying to hold Durvasa & Surya-dev responsible for what happened. But that's really giving Kunti a pass, which she didn't deserve.

Surya-dev couldn't do anything as long as Kunti wasn't willing to own up to paternity of Karna. I generally despise Durvasa, but even he couldn't have blown her secret, w/o her permission. Yeah, he could have promised her a boon just b4 her marriage, or made the mantra conditional that it would only work post marriage. But I don't see what Surya-dev could have done, given her unwillingness to fess up about it to the world.

Yeah, Durvasa might have warned her against experimenting w/ the boon, while Suryadev - could devas just appear on earth and declare that _____ was their son?

Oh, and one more thing - Kunti knew from his armor and earrings who he was at the tournament itself. The Pandavas knew him from b4 that @ Drona's gurukul, but didn't know that he was their half-brother.

Originally posted by: medha00

she did not care about Karna ( though as she gave him birth, she must feel something towards him) or that not as much as she cared about her three sons and step sons. Why should she? She did not raise him.

but after he knew that these three were his only blood kith and kin in the war, what then? Should he have forgotten his responsibilities towards the Kauravas and embrace the Pandavas because they are blood related? He said he will not kill the four but didn't say that he will not let anyone else kill them either, and when he said that he can't spare Arjuna he did not talk about his youngest blood brother who he had almost 20 years on, he was merely referring to his foe of more than half a century.

At the end, he was bound to Duryodhana more so than he was to the Pandavas and that just proves that the blood ties were not above the ties of years of affection, unity and duties, responsibilities.

Originally posted by: medha00

It has been pointed a lot of times that there are many versions, translations of the epic and many are quite blunt in pointing out what just happened here. Kunti brought it upon herself with her childishness and rashness, but after a conception like this, women in today's age would opt for the other alternative options that were not available to her.So how come Sage Durvasa is not at fault? He should have informed her foster parents of the Mantra he was giving their daughter.The mantras were so powerful and needed more terse instructions that 'summon the celestials with mantra and they will give you children'. And the Pandavas were born to Pandu and kunti/Pandu and Madri with Pandus consent/orders.They both are now Pandus wives, and in that types of Son, one is the son beget upon ones wife by another man.But kunti was not married, neither did she took permission from her Father, so here Suryadeva is the sole father. He had more say in his sons life than the other gods had in their respective son's.If letting Karna be brought up in a Suta family instead of a Kshatriya family means that Kunti failed in her duty as a mother than the same goes for the Father.He knew that Kunti did not want the child, so he could have shipped him off to a childless Kshatriya family if being raised in the order of Suta was such a dire problem

Originally posted by: SayaneeH.Lecter

If Kunti directly surrender Karna in a Suta's hand it would have been no issue but she just floated him away in heavy current of Ganga.. I think we must consider this point. It was Karna's destiny that he was adapted by a Suta parents but that doesn't change the fact that Kunti abandoned Karna in an unknown danger! If she just gave up Karna to anyone to adapt him it would have been totally different and quite understandable

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Karna never knew that Kunti was his mother, wasn't interested or curious about it, and had no issues w/ being the son of Adiratha/Radha.

I don't think you get why Kunti gets all the opprobrium. It's well deserved, and here's why

• After the tournament, even if she was at a loss of what to do then, she had ample opportunities to fix things: she was no longer a kid. It's not like she never had any private moments w/ her sons. She could have sent for Karna privately and revealed to him the circumstances that she had to abandon him, and request him not to make enemies of her other sons. In lieu of that, she could have offered him a respectable status within the family, at least as her acknowledged son, if not Pandu's. Similarly, she could also have summoned Pandu's 5 sons and told them who Karna really was, and that they should apologize to him. At that stage, Karna was not in Duryodhan's debt - he could easily have thanked him, returned Anga, and join Yudisthir in his attempts to bridge the gap b/w the Pandavas & Kauravas
• Since she made no attempts to do that, she had no business approaching him at all. The only reason she approached him b4 the war was one of 2 possibilities, depending on how charitably one wants to look at her
• She wanted to save her other 5 sons from him, knowing that he was the only one capable of killing them. She didn't care about him at all
• She wanted to demoralize him (like Krishna did) by revealing to him this secret (she didn't know that Krishna had already done it for her) so that while her other sons would fight him wholeheartedly, he'd fight them less willingly than he was to date
• She wanted to give him his rightful part of Pandu's inheritance.
• Since she had given him nothing throughout his life, approaching him like a beggar particularly reflects badly on her, given that in the war, every one else - all her bahus (except Chitrangada) had lost their sons, but she didn't lose any of hers, thanks to Karna's gift. But she apparently had no issues w/ her grandsons getting killed - be they the Pandava sons, or Karna's.

The point that Karna sympathizers have is that if Kunti wanted Karna to recognize her as a mother, the least that he deserved from her was her caring about him. But the truth is - notwithstanding all the serials - that she never did. Given that fact, which is hard to contradict based on the evidence, Kunti had no business approaching Karna for anything.

Another thing - as a kshatrani, Kunti knew that one of the duties of her sons was to fight & die in battle. Far more innocent warriors than her sons, who might have had a bright future had they survived, died - Sveta, Uttar, Abhimanyu, Iravana, Kshatradharma, et al. So what was so special about her that all her sons had to be kept alive after the war, even if they lost each of their kids? What sort of a grandmother was she? Since her sons were kshatriyas, they ran the risk of dying in battle. Did Draupadi, Subhadra, or anyone else approach the killers of their sons b4 the war begging them not to kill their sons?

It's true that people sympathize w/ Karna for being discarded as a newborn. It's also true that he had loving parents in Adiratha & Radha. But that would be relevant in today's society, not that era's. It's the equivalent of a baby being born to a millionaire, being put up for adoption and adopted out to a family that can barely pay for his livelihood. Let's say that that kid grows up and through his own genius becomes a tycoon that then competes w/ and puts his biological parent's company in the red. Would the birth parents of that kid then have the right to go to him, reveal his original parentage and then beg him not to do a leveraged buyout of their disintegrating business empire?

Remember, Karna had to put up w/ being insulted as a sutaputra, not merely being called one. He was denied knowledge of the Brahmashira even though it was given to Arjun, just on the basis of caste. For those who think that he didn't have the right temperament, neither did Ashwatthama, but Drona gave it to the latter b'cos he was a Brahmin Dhritarashtra. Honestly, does anybody believe that had Karna successfully remembered and used the Brahmashira against Arjun in a manner similarly to Ashwatthama, that he would have diverted it at the wombs of the Pandava womenfolk? I for one don't for a minute, b'cos Karna was nowhere as vile as Ashwatthama, as Bheeshma & Drona apologists might like to believe.

Nonetheless, despite getting nothing from Kunti, Karna did the best he could from what he learnt from both Drona & Parashurama, and as a result, not only did he get Anga as a gift from Duryodhan, he also got Champa/Malini as a gift from Jarasandha. So he was hardly complaining. But one can blame Kunti for Karna not being eligible to even contest for Draupadi (she'd still have had the rights to choose if both Karna & Arjun had successfully won the competition).

In short, Kunti was not judged for merely abandoning Karna, that by itself would have been fine. If you notice, nobody ever blames Vishwamitra & Menaka for abandoning Shakuntala. What makes Kunti a real loser is her going back to that son that she abandoned and begging him to spare her other sons' lives. As a kshatrani, she should have been willing to risk losing all her sons, as far more innocent women than her in the war did. 😡

P.S. Re-reading your post, I recognize that you're trying to hold Durvasa & Surya-dev responsible for what happened. But that's really giving Kunti a pass, which she didn't deserve.

Surya-dev couldn't do anything as long as Kunti wasn't willing to own up to paternity of Karna. I generally despise Durvasa, but even he couldn't have blown her secret, w/o her permission. Yeah, he could have promised her a boon just b4 her marriage, or made the mantra conditional that it would only work post marriage. But I don't see what Surya-dev could have done, given her unwillingness to fess up about it to the world.

Yeah, Durvasa might have warned her against experimenting w/ the boon, while Suryadev - could devas just appear on earth and declare that _____ was their son?

Oh, and one more thing - Kunti knew from his armor and earrings who he was at the tournament itself. The Pandavas knew him from b4 that @ Drona's gurukul, but didn't know that he was their half-brother.

Originally posted by: medha00

And by your logic, you are saying that Karna dreadfully miserably failed at being an elder brother to the three sons of Kunti because he discarded his duties towards them? The eldest brother would protect his youngers not fight against them. He was almost 16 years older than Yudhishtira(some say it is 8)Previously he could not have done anything, but after he knew that these three were his only blood kith and kin in the war, what then?