Suryadeva, Rishi Durvasa and abandonment - what should they have done? - Page 11

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smrth thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

smrth:agree again of course she was a compassionate mother more than that i am sure she was a moralistic person as well hence she could pass on such morals to pandavas which made them great heroes we know today so cartainly she wasnt an ordinary woman

Yet there is blemish on her character that is how she dealt with the whole karna situation.Not when she was young completly understand that perhaps i also would have doNE the same.But from rangbhoomi till the day she told karna the truth she could have done a lot to salvage the situation but she choose the time when it was too late and that to only for her 5 sons not karna.
so my conclusion about her character is she is a flawed human being like many other characters in MB i wont put her in the category of hero or villain


Let's take Rangbhumi. What could she have done? Own up Karna in front of entire populace? As what? Her 'pre- marriage' son??! And embarrass her adopted Royal- and ruling- clan in front of their own subject? Why! The same considerations- preserving social poise of her family- considered for her maternal family then- are now applicable now with grater gravity perhaps. Please spare Pandu's far fetched logics here. It did not stop 'wagging tongues' of people in Ram's time, nor in her time nor in ours. Besides, 'fate' was sealed at the birth. If a much more vulnerable new born was left to its care then now he is much less 'unsafe'. Here he is. A young, powerful and formidable warrior. Not only well matched, even bestowed with entire Kingdom. So what could it achieve now? Elevating his social class? But then wouldn't it inflict ignominy of illegitimacy too in this case? Tough choice perhaps.

' so why did she did approach him in the end after all?' Ok. I will attempt personal take with relevant citation in the evening...need to leave now.😊

Incidentally, one point I have been wondering since long...Was Anga Duryodhan's personal property to give away? Or it was Hastinapur's? What was Duryodhan's right? Can a royal prince cleave away state such impetuously- largely to bolster his personal clout? Remember, he is not even designate crown prince at the moment...am confused.
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: smrth

Let's take Rangbhumi. What could she have done? Own up Karna in front of entire populace? As what? Her 'pre- marriage' son??! And embarrass her adopted Royal- and ruling- clan in front of their own subject? Why!

Well I have already listed out this here in this post many times...it was not that she had to announce it publicly...All she had to do was have a private conversation with karna...like she had during war ...or similar way have it with pandavas telling them about karna... They cud have atleast known that then n there..instead of letting whole world know about it... She was too late in telling karna... when Karna could not leave side of Dury..
Edited by riti4u - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: ...Diala...

Right.. Indra doing it the most, Suryadev very minor role, Dharmaraj almost negligible, Vayudev and Ashwinikumars nowhere in picture



I'd say that Yamaraj was #2 - the lake episode and the swargarohan one. Vayudev was nowhere there, and even though Hanuman appeared b4 Bhima, he told him that he'd help Arjun (not Bhima).

Suryadev's role was warning Karna about the attempt to deprive him of the kavacha kundala (I'll have to recheck whether he suggested that Karna ask for the Shakti in return) and on separate occasions, telling Karna that the Pandavas were his brothers & appealing to him to join them.

Originally posted by: ...Diala...

Since childhood what I have been listening to is that a Shepard will leave his 99 sheep to go in search of one lost sheep.. here is where I hear otherwise



Actually, in the Ramayan, when Bharat was confronting Kaikeyi over her decision to exile Rama, he mentioned how Surabhi, the celestial cow, had several calves, but was distraught at even one being lost, b4 drawing the contrast to Kaikeyi. Here, it's sacrificing one son to save the other 5.

Originally posted by: riti4u

Well I have already listed out this here in this post many times...it was not that she had to announce it publicly...All she had to do was have a private conversation with karna...like she had during war ...or similar way have it with pandavas telling them about karna... They cud have atleast known that then n there..instead of letting whole world know about it... She was too late in telling karna... when Karna could not leave side of Dury..


See my suggestion on pg 2
Edited by .Vrish. - 11 years ago
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I'd say that Yamaraj was #2 - the lake episode and the swargarohan one. Vayudev was nowhere there, and even though Hanuman appeared b4 Bhima, he told him that he'd help Arjun (not Bhima).

Suryadev's role was warning Karna about the attempt to deprive him of the kavacha kundala (I'll have to recheck whether he suggested that Karna ask for the Shakti in return) and on separate occasions, telling Karna that the Pandavas were his brothers & appealing to him to join them.

Actually, in the Ramayan, when Bharat was confronting Kaikeyi over her decision to exile Rama, he mentioned how Surabhi, the celestial cow, had several calves, but was distraught at even one being lost, b4 drawing the contrast to Kaikeyi. Here, it's sacrificing one son to save the other 5.



I put Yamraj third as both the instances he came to test his son and dint attempt to save or caution him say before the dice game.. The Sakthi part am sure it is Suryadevs order and thanks for story of Surabhi.

@blue: do you really think it can be true? I remember the text but it is clear that the first ever point that Karna came to know his identity is through Krishna and Suryadev speaks to him as a father only when Kunti meets Karna. while he cautions of Indra's plan he says there is a reason for why I tell you this which you will come to know later. all these together I dont find it trustworthy for me to believe Suryadev appealed to Karna anytime before Krishna Karna meeting.. anything after that is ofcourse not to be of any use..
Edited by ...Diala... - 11 years ago
Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: smrth


Good to see an objective take on Kunti...assessing her further in this line;

1) As showed with Sahdev-Nakul, she is capable of a compassionate mothering.

2) At the time of birth of Karna, she is hardly a teen, dependent girl; conscious of her adoptive father's reputation as well as solicitous. (taking good care of Durvasa for his father). Take the event, after invoking Surya, she did resist and refused. As per text...

"...Vivswat (Surya) thus spoke unto her many things with a view to allay her fears, but, O Bharata, the amiable maiden, from modesty and fear of her relatives, consented not to grant his request. And, O bull of Bharata's race, Arka addressed her again and said, 'O princess, for my sake, it shall not be sinful for thee to grant my wish.' Thus speaking unto the daughter of Kuntibhoja, the illustrious Tapana--the illuminator of the universe--gratified his wish. And of this connection there was immediately born a son known all over the world as Karna..."

underlined part shows a forced conception...(would we hear abortions' in such situations in our time?). Now how would a dependent, somewhat immature and panicked girl of @ 14 years supposed to own up a rash' pregnancy' and off spring? She is in a critical mess. Point is, she may be reproached for her rashness. At the same time she could be sympathized for her plight. Now consider #1) and she is not as bad' as she is being painted- or perhaps it's not she failing miserably- rather the fate.


p.s. adding the relevant post, you replied:




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Ok. So This is how Krishna described his encounter with Sage Durvasa in Anusansana Parva. The conversation is between Krishna and his Son from Rukmini.

Formerly, in my house, O son, dwelt the Brahmana Durvasa whose complexion was green and tawny.

Clad in rags, he had a stick made of the Vilwa tree His beard was long and he was exceedingly emaciated. He was taller in stature than the tallest man on earth. Wandering over all the worlds, viz, that which belongs to human beings and those that are for the deities and other superior beings, even this was the verse which he sang constantly among assemblies and in public squares.Who is there that would cause the Brahmana Durvasa to dwell in his house, doing the duties of hospitality towards him? He becomes enraged with every one if he finds even the slightest transgression? Hearing this regarding my disposition, who is there that will give me refuge? Indeed, he that would give me shelter as a guest should not do anything to anger me' When I saw that no one ventured to give him shelter in his house. I invited him and caused him to take up his residence in my abode.

On certain days he would eat the food sufficient for the needs of thousands of persons. On certain other days he would eat very little. On some days he would go out of my house and would not return. He would sometimes laugh without any ostensible reason and sometimes cry as causelessly.At that time there was nobody on earth that was equal to him in years. One day, entering the quarters assigned to him he burnt all the beds and coverlets and all the well-adorned damsels that were there for serving him. Doing this, he went out. Of highly praiseworthy vows, he met me shortly after this and addressing me, said, O Krishna, I wish to eat frumenty without delay' Having understood his mind previously, I had set my servants to prepare every kind of food and drink.Indeed, many excellent viands had been kept ready.

As soon as I was asked, I caused hot frumenty to be brought and offered to the ascetic. Having eaten some, he quickly said unto me, smeDo thou, O Krishna, take some of this frumenty and smear all thy limbs with it' Without any scruple I did as directed. Indeed, with the remnant of that frumenty I smeared my body and head. The ascetic at that time saw thy mother of sweet face standing near.Laughing the while, heared her body also with that frumenty. The ascetic then caused thy mother, whose body was smeared over with frumenty, to be yoked unto a car without any delay.Ascending that car he set out of my house. Endued with great intelligence, that Brahmana blazed with effulgence like fire, and struck, in my presence, my Rukmini endued with youth, as if she were an animal destined to drag the cars of human beings. Beholding this, I did not feel the slightest grief born of malice or the desire to injure the Rishi.

Indeed, having yoked Rukmini to the car, he went out, desirous of proceeding along the high road of the city. Seeing that extraordinary sight, some Dasarhas, filled with wrath, addressed one another and began to converse in this way, Who else is there on earth that would draw breath after having yoked Rukmini to a car! Verily, let the world be filled with Brahmanas only! Let no other orders take birth here. The poison of a virulent snake is exceedingly keen. Keener than poison is a Brahmana.There is no physician for a person that has been bitten or burnt by the virulent snake of aBrahmana, As the irresistible Durvasa proceeded on the car, Rukmini tottered on the road and frequently fell down. At this the regenerate Rishi became angry and began to urge Rukmini on by striking her with the whip. At last, filled with a towering passion, the Brahmana leapt down from the car, and fled towards the south, running on foot, over a pathless ground. Beholding that foremost ofBrahmanas flying along the pathless ground, we followed him, although we were smeared with frumenty, exclaiming behind him, Be gratified with us, O holy one!

Endued with great energy, the Brahmana, seeing me, said, O mighty-armed Krishna, thou hast subdued wrath by the strength of thy nature? O thou of excellent vows, I have not found the slightest fault in thee! O Govinda, I have been highly gratified with thee. Do thou solicit the fruition of such wishes as thou pleasest! Behold duly, O son, what the puissance is of myself when I become gratified with any one.


Why would Kuntis foster Father leave her alone with the Sage? She was at the least, 13 years in age and at the most, 15-16.

And Pritha in the house of her adoptive father was engaged in looking after the duties of hospitality to Brahmanas and other guests. Once she gratified by her attentions the terrible Brahmana of rigid vows, who was known by the name of Durvasa and was well-acquainted with the hidden truths of morality. Gratified with her respectful attentions, the sage, anticipating by his spiritual power the future (season of) distress (consequent upon the curse to be pronounced upon Pandu for his unrighteous act of slaying a deer while serving its mate) imparted to her a formula of invocation for summoning any of the celestials she liked to give her children. And the Rishi said, Those celestials that thou shall summon by this Mantra shall certainly approach thee and give thee children'


this is what she told Pandu:-

'In my girlhood, O lord, I was in my father's house engaged in attending upon all guests. I used to wait respectfully upon Brahmanas of rigid vows and great ascetic merit. One day I gratified with my attentions that Brahmana whom people call Durvasa, of mind under full control and possessing knowledge of all the mysteries of religion. Pleased with my services, that Brahmana gave me a boon in the form of a mantra (formula of invocation) for calling into my presence any one of the celestials I liked. And the Rishi, addressing me, said, 'Anyone among the celestials whom thou callest by this shall, O girl, approach thee and be obedient to thy will, whether he liketh it or not. And, O princess, thou shall also have offspring through his grace.'(she made this up since Durvasa did not say any of this to her as seen above in the speech between Kunti and Durvasa)

Kunti's conversation with Suryadev went like this :-

O slayer of foes, a certain Brahamana gave me this formula of invocation as a boon, and, O lord, I have summoned thee only to test its efficacy. For this offence I bow to thee. A woman, whatever be her offence, always deserveth pardon'

Surya Sun replied," I know that Durvasa hath granted this boon. But cast off thy fears, timid maiden, and grant me thy embraces.

Amiable one, my approach cannot be futile; it must bear fruit."

Thou hast summoned me, and if it be for nothing, it shall certainly be regarded as thy transgression' Vaisampayana continued,

Vivaswatt thus spoke unto her many things with a view to allay her fears, but, O Bharata, the amiable maiden, from modesty and fear of her relatives, consented not to grant his request.

And, O bull of Bharata'srace, Arka addressed her again and said, O princess, for my sake, it shall not be sinful for thee to grant my wish' Thus speaking unto the daughter of Kuntibhoja, the illustrious Tapana, the illuminator of the universe, gratified his wish. And of this connection there was immediately born a son known all over the world as Karna accountred with natural armour and with face brightened by ear-rings.

And after the birth of this child, the illustrious Tapanagranted unto Pritha her maidenhood and ascended to heaven.


It has been pointed a lot of times that there are many versions, translations of the epic and many are quite blunt in pointing out what just happened here. Kunti brought it upon herself with her childishness and rashness, but after a conception like this, women in today's age would opt for the other alternative options that were not available to her.So how come Sage Durvasa is not at fault? He should have informed her foster parents of the Mantra he was giving their daughter.The mantras were so powerful and needed more terse instructions that 'summon the celestials with mantra and they will give you children'. And the Pandavas were born to Pandu and kunti/Pandu and Madri with Pandus consent/orders.They both are now Pandus wives, and in that types of Son, one is the son beget upon ones wife by another man.But kunti was not married, neither did she took permission from her Father, so here Suryadeva is the sole father. He had more say in his sons life than the other gods had in their respective son's.If letting Karna be brought up in a Suta family instead of a Kshatriya family means that Kunti failed in her duty as a mother than the same goes for the Father.He knew that Kunti did not want the child, so he could have shipped him off to a childless Kshatriya family if being raised in the order of Suta was such a dire problem.


riti4u thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: medha00

It has been pointed a lot of times that there are many versions, translations of the epic and many are quite blunt in pointing out what just happened here. Kunti brought it upon herself with her childishness and rashness, but after a conception like this, women in today's age would opt for the other alternative options that were not available to her.So how come Sage Durvasa is not at fault? He should have informed her foster parents of the Mantra he was giving their daughter.The mantras were so powerful and needed more terse instructions that 'summon the celestials with mantra and they will give you children'. And the Pandavas were born to Pandu and kunti/Pandu and Madri with Pandus consent/orders.They both are now Pandus wives, and in that types of Son, one is the son beget upon ones wife by another man.But kunti was not married, neither did she took permission from her Father, so here Suryadeva is the sole father. He had more say in his sons life than the other gods had in their respective son's.If letting Karna be brought up in a Suta family instead of a Kshatriya family means that Kunti failed in her duty as a mother than the same goes for the Father.He knew that Kunti did not want the child, so he could have shipped him off to a childless Kshatriya family if being raised in the order of Suta was such a dire problem

I dont see being brought up in Suta's caste as grave issue here...What is appalling for me that she abandoned a little infant down the river...A defenceless child... I am yet to come across any statement in what you and your friends shared here that Surya had said to kunti that he wud take care...n she shud just leave him like that... We all know that he was adopted by Suta and got loving
parents but how did she knew it... It wud be great help if you can share whether she had any concern for child whom she had so brutally removed from her life... Agreed she was innocent..but then what was the fault of that little child to be thrown into river by his very own mother...
Okay even then I give kunti a benefit of doubt since she was quite young...Years later too...when she encountered her son...Why cudnt she confide to him then ...or pandavas then...
Please note the issue of Casteism is not that huge as the issue of having brother fighting against his own kin...issue is of hiding the truth when she cud have easily just told her sons about it...
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Posted: 11 years ago
I agree that Kunti played her part well when it comes to Pandavas and she was really good with her step sons but she failed as a mother when it comes to Karna. I don't blame her for getting pregnant at a tender age as it was her mistake only, no big crime at all. But the way she abandoned Karna was not a simple mistake. 1stly at those days having an illegitimate child was not that big issue to society .. Example: Satyavati-Vyasa. Still I feel ok as not everyone may feel comfortable with such truth.

Karna was floated by Kunti in Karnaprayg that has high current even today. Imagine someone floating a new born baby in that current! Doesn't it feels painful to even think. As a princes she could have given Karna to a Dashi but she chose a dangerous way. Not only that in Vyasa Mahabharata it is written Kunti closed the opening of the basket with wax. isn't it fatal for a little baby?

Even after that she got chance to correct everything when she recognize her son at Hanstinapur tournament. She could tell the truth to Pandavas. It could have change a many thing. but she didn't only went to Karna before war just for sake of Pandavas sake and returned after getting a promise from the son whom she gave nothing except giving birth

About Suryadev he is a God and I have no idea if they took any responsibility for their human born child ever! what to say about it. But I don't think Sage Durvasha had any responsibility here. He gave a boon to Kunti coz he was happy with her service. Usually he gives curse to everyone, I don't think it was his responsibility to tell her when to chant the Mantra as he clearly said this mantra will bring her a son.
Edited by SayaneeH.Lecter - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Medha:Didnt understand.Kunti was karna's mother hence discarding her duties means she failed as a motehr when it comes to karna.I do understand her reasons for discarding it but still she did discard it means she didnt fulfill her duties as mother to karna which means she failed in it

Dont get me wrong i am not saying that Karna missed mother's love he had a wonderfull mother in Radha but talking about kunti as an individual if any individual discards his/her duty towards any relationship it is wrong especially if the relationship is as pure as that of mother and son.And what made it worse that she only remembered that she is karna's mother when she had to save her sons just before the war if she had discarded her duties she souldnt have come to karna before the war as a mother as well.


As I said, she was barely of age, a child herself when she deserted the child. She kept insisting that she was not ready to be a mother, that her elders will curse her, her father will be angry at her and she felt mortified and was reluctant. You can't expect her to think like a mother at that point when she feared her own parents and was mindful of their reputation. And psychologically, had she kept him, and was lashed at by the family and the society; she would have probably grown up to resent him and hate herself for it knowing that it wasn't the child's fault. That always happens in these kind of cases.

And by the time of war, Yudhishtira was 84+, that is how long she has been with the sons she raised. Say, she did not care about Karna ( though as she gave him birth, she must feel something towards him) or that not as much as she cared about her three sons and step sons. Why should she? She did not raise him. Karna had his own parents to love and care for him. She had spies to tell her that Karna was being raised by Atiratha and Radha. She knew he was in a good family, had loving parents who probably loved him more than their biological sons. It is not like she was leaving him orphaned or with abusive people. She saw him for the first time in Rangbhoomi and he was well past his 30s, she probably couldn't even associate him with the baby she held for a while in her arms. By the time of war, there was more than half a century of hate and animosity between Pandavas and Karna since the time of Gurukul. In her eyes, he was wicked as she said in that dialogue. She knew about the things he did to Pandavas and after Draupadis disrobing, she was probably even more reluctant to think of Karna as a son. If she went to Karna because she sought to save the lives of her children without caring about the consequences, how can she be considered wrong? And she did ask that all her Sons be alive, not just the five she brought up. And if she cares more for the sons she raised and has been with for more than 80 years instead of the one who was raised by someone else and was always seen as the enemy of her children, what is wrong in that? Yes, she was being unfair and selfish for her children and was not above using the Mother' card on Karna. But she did not go to his adoptive parents when he was young and told them to give him up to her because she gave him birth so she has more of a right on him. She requested to Karna, but she did not demanded that he, being born to her, has to chose her now, leave the Kauravas and start loving his brothers right away, either he like it or not.

And by your logic, you are saying that Karna dreadfully miserably failed at being an elder brother to the three sons of Kunti because he discarded his duties towards them? The eldest brother would protect his youngers not fight against them. He was almost 16 years older than Yudhishtira(some say it is 8)Previously he could not have done anything, but after he knew that these three were his only blood kith and kin in the war, what then? Should he have forgotten his responsibilities towards the Kauravas and embrace the Pandavas because they are blood related? He said he will not kill the four but didn't say that he will not let anyone else kill them either, and when he said that he can't spare Arjuna he did not talk about his youngest blood brother who he had almost 20 years on, he was merely referring to his foe of more than half a century.

Just because he knew that they were his brothers, he didn't start adoring them just because of the blood relationship; he didn't abandon Duryodhan for them and did not start being a brother to them because apparently, he was their eldest brother. I can't fault him for choosing Duryodhan over his kin because he was more of a brother to Duryodhan for over 5 decades than he ever was to the Pandavas. At the end, he was bound to Duryodhana more so than he was to the Pandavas and that just proves that the blood ties were not above the ties of years of affection, unity and duties, responsibilities.

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Posted: 11 years ago
Agreed that Kunti can't be blamed alone for abandoning Karna when he was born. Perhaps anyone else would have done something similar in that particular situation. But sage Durvasa and Surya Dev were mature enough to figure out the resulting consequences and I feel they are to be blamed. It was sage Durvasa's responsibility to warn Kunti regarding the boon he blessed her with. Surya Dev too...holds some responsibility!

So the abandonment can be justified a bit. But she's to be blamed later on, when she identified her first born in the Rangbhoomi.
Edited by -Shruti - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
Medha

I think your ages are mistaken. Drona himself was said to be 85 at the time of the war. The Pandavas would have been in their 50s, and so would Karna. There wouldn't have been a 50 year freindship b/w Duryodhan & Karna.

Also, I don't think anybody ever condones what Karna did in the dice sabha, so I'm not getting why it's continually brought up. When Krishna met Karna, the latter mentioned that he regretted what he had done to Draupadi:

For those harsh words, O Krishna, that I said before unto the sons of Pandu for the gratification of Dhritarashtra's son,--for that wicked conduct of mine,--I am consumed with repentance. When O Krishna, thou wilt behold me slain by Arjuna, then will the Punachiti of this sacrifice commence. When the (second) son of Pandu will drink the blood of the loudly roaring Dussasana, then will the Soma-drinking of this sacrifice have taken place! When the two princes of Panchala (Dhrishtadyumna and Sikhandin) will overthrow Drona and Bhishma, then, O Janardana, will this sacrifice be suspended for an interval. When mighty Bhimasena will slay Duryodhana, then, O Madhava, will this sacrifice of Dhritarashtra's son be concluded. When the wives of Dhritarashtra's sons and grandsons assembled together, deprived, O Kesava, of their husbands and sons and without protectors, will indulge in lamentations with Gandhari in their midst, on the field of battle haunted by dogs and vultures and other carnivorous birds, then, O Janardana, will the final bath of this sacrifice take place.

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