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Originally posted by: Nandiniraizaada
Karna: He was a legend,
It is indisputable that Karna is one of the most fascinating characters in Mahabharata. He had sterling character and was a victim of circumstances. His fighting skills were unmatched and loyalty to his friend, unflinching. But a combination of fate, personal traits and shrewed battle strategy of Krishna ensured that he would not deliver the result which his best friend Duryodhana was hoping for. Here is an analysis of the factors that paved the way to his downfall.
Krishna, the strategist
Krishna was well aware that Karna is more than a match for Arjuna in his skills with the bow and arrow. It was not a battle that Arjuna could be sure of winning. And Karna nursed a deep wound in his mind from the day he was insulted in public. He had Arjuna as his target and was focusing all his energies for the ultimate battle.
It was most important to mentally break him down as the first step. So Krishna let him know about his real parentage - he knew the Pandavas were his younger brothers. This always weighed down on Karna's mind when he took on any Pandava in battle.
The second strategy was to ask Kunti to visit Karna with a request to defect to the Pandava side. It was well known that Karna considered his loyalty to Duryodhana over eveything else and he would never leave the Kauravas - Duryodhana started the war with the confidence of having Karna on his side. The reason for the visit was to pressurise Karna to make more concessions to Pandavas. He did and boxed himself into a poor position in the battle. He gave Kunti the promise that he would not kill any Panda other than Arjuna even if he gets the opportunity. Krishna and Kunti carefully kept the secret of Karna away from Pandavas. So Arjuna could freely fight the battle seeing only the enemy in Karna. But Karna had the burden of seeing a brother in his enemy.
Karna had a spear called Vyjayanthi, given by Indra. It would work only once and Karna had kept it for use against Arjuna. Krishna was aware of this and wanted to ensure that the spear was used before Karna and Arjuna met. He strategised to sacrifice Khatotkacha (Bhima's son ) for the purpose. Khatotkacha was a rakshasa and the cost of his life would have been considered low. Krishna unleashed the might of Khatotkacha on the Kaurava army. They were unable to bear the brunt of the whirlwind warrior. Karna was forced to use Vyjayanthi to kill Khatotkacha rendering the spear unusable for the battle with Arjuna. Khatotkacha's life was a small price to pay to protect the higher prize.
Character - streanth & weakness
Karna's unwavering loyalty to Duryodhana caused immense harm to him. He never objected to the wrong ways of his dear friend. He ended up on the wrong side owing to the company he kept. All stemming out of his pledging loyalty and frinedship to Duryodhana - for standing with him at an hour when the whole world seemed determined to insult and humiliate him.
Karna's charity was exploited by Indra who came as a brahmin and asked for his kavacha' and kundala'. Karna was born with them and had the boon that he would be invincible as long as they are on his body. Surya was aware of Indra's designs and had forewarned Karna, but he did not fail in his charity - literally giving away his victory and life.
Lying to Parashurama about being a brahmin proved too expensive for Karna. When Drona refused to accept him as a student, he only way left for Karna to acquire Brahmastra was to go to Parashurama. But Parashurama teaches only brahmins - in a rare blemish on his side, Karna decided to pose as a brahmin. The truth was exposed when Parashurama found out that Karna had a much higher threshold of pain typical of kshatriyas. Rama cursed Karna that he would forget the use of brahmastra when it is required.
In the battle against Arjuna, Karna was about to shoot the powerful nagastra when Shalya (who was driving the chariot) noticed that the aim was higher up towards the head. He advised Karna to aim lower. Karna refused saying that it is against dharma to change the aim once taken - "Karna never aimeth an arrow twice". Krishna pressed the chariot down with his feet, taking it down by a few inches - nagastra took Arjuna's crown instead of his head. The snake Aswasena (who had an enmity towards Arjuna as his mother was killed during Khandava-daha) had entered the arrow by yogic powers. He returned to Karna's quiver and asked him to fire him once again to slay Arjuna. Karna refused saying that he would not like to win with someone else's help.
Other circumstances
Karna was destinied to be saddled with the animosity and humiliation right from the time he was born. Kunti disowned him and the profession of his step-father was consistently used to humiliate him - in spite of the brilliance that he showed with the bow & arrow. Karna was also acclaimed as one of the most handsome people in the whole epic. He had the aura of his father Surya'. But the insults and humiliation often eclipsed his brightness.
Karna had taken a decision not to take the battlefield as long as Bheeshma was the commander. So he had to wait till more than half of the battle to come in. By that time, several key victories belonged to Pandavas.
Shalya, who was the driver of Karna's chariot, constantly irritated and insulted him during the war. This psychologically affected Karna. Shalya kep insisting that Sutaputra' can not win the Pandavas.
And at the critical moment when the wheels of his chariot sunk, Karna wasn't given the fair chance to lift it before continuting the battle. Karna reminds Arjuna about the rules of war - "Brave warriors that are observant of the practices of the righteous, never shoot their weapons at persons with dishevelled hair, or at those that have turned their faces from battle, or at a brahmana, or at him who joins his palms, or at him who yields himself up or beggeth for quarter or at one who has put up his weapon, or at one whose arrows are exhausted, or at one whose armour is displaced, or at one whose weapon has fallen off or been broken! Thou art the bravest of men in the world. Thou art also of righteous behaviour, O son of Pandu! Thou art well-acquainted with the rules of battle. For these reasons, excuse me for a moment, that is, till I extricate my wheel, O Dhananjaya, from the earth." Krishna was quick to cite several earlier incidents of adharma, which made Karna hang his head in shame. Without getting the chance to extricate his chariot wheel, Karna fell to Arjuna's arrows.
Originally posted by: Nandiniraizaada
It is not difficult to fall in love with Karna. He has all the elements of a hero but is not allowed to be one - by his mother, his brothers, his teacher, even God. Our heart goes out to him. It all starts with a princess called Kunti letting her curiosity get the better of her. She uses a magical formula given to her by a sage to summon the sun-god, Surya, who is compelled to give her a child. Fearful that a child conceived before marriage may ruin her reputation, Kunti places the child - born with a natural armor and divine earrings - in a wicker basket and leaves him afloat to a river's whim, very much like Moses in the Bible. But while the river takes Moses, the son of a slave, into a royal household, this river takes Karna, the son of a princess, into the house of a charioteer transforming a Kshatriya, member of the ruling class, into a Shudra, a member of the service class. Rejected by his natural mother, this foundling refuses to submit to this enforced destiny. In his heart he is a warrior. He knows it. Why else would he be born with an armor if he was not fated to fight? He approaches Drona, teacher of the Kuru princes, but is turned away. "Stick to your caste duties," he is told. But what determines a man's caste? The caste of the father, say the scriptures. Who is Karna's father? Is it the man who raises him (a charioteer), the man who made his mother pregnant (a god) or the man who married his mother (a king)? In the Mahabharata, fatherhood is intensely debated. The storyteller wonders who is the true father of the Pandavas - Pandu, who married Kunti, or the gods, who impregnate her because her husband can't, or is it Bhisma, the granduncle of the boys, or Vidur, their uncle, who serve as foster fathers ? The conclusion is that it should be Pandu who is lawfully wedded to Kunti hence father of all her children. Does this include children she bore before she married him? Does it make Karna the eldest Pandava and hence true heir to the Pandava fortune? Krishna believes it so for years later when he tries to lure Karna away from the Kauravas he offers the following bribe, "You will be king. Your five brothers will stand by you. Their wife, Draupadi, will be your queen." Rejected by Drona on grounds that he is not a Kshatriya, Karna seeks tutorship of Parashurama, a warrior sage who is willing to teach the martial arts to anyone but a Kshatriya. But when Parashurama notices his ability to withstand intense pain silently, Parashurama concludes the boy is a Kshatriya by birth. Feeling he has been made a fool of, an enraged Parashurama curses Karna. "You will forget all that I have taught you at the moment you need it most." Rejected by Parashurama, Karna returns to his mother's house. According to a folklore in Andhra Pradesh, on his way he comes across a young girl crying because she has dropped her pot of milk on the ground and she fears punishment at the hands of her step-mother. Out of compassion, Karna takes the wet earth and squeezes milk out of the soil back into the pot. The girl goes away happy but the earth-goddess is not pleased. She swears that one day she will squeeze Karna the way he squeezed her and that would be the cause of his death. Rejected by the earth herself, Karna is determined to win a respectable place for himself in society based on merit. He decides to participate in an archery tournament held in the city of Hastinapur. The tournament is organized by Bhisma to showcase the skills of his grandnephews, the hundred Kauravas and the five Pandavas. Unfortunately for him, the show is stolen by a handsome young man who calls himself Karna. Everybody wonders who this man is. Kunti recognizes his armor and earrings and identifies him as her son but dares not tell anyone of her pre-marital misdemeanor. To Karna's great discomfort, his foster father rushes into the arena and hugs him in public. The cheering onlookers fall silent. The great warrior is no warrior at all. He is a lowly charioteer. This association haunts Karna all his life. Rejected by the Pandavas, Karna finds honor amongst the Kauravas. Duryodhana, eldest of the Kauravas, anoints Karna king of Anga, thus making Karna a Kshatriya by merit if not by birth. For this Karna is eternally grateful. Duryodhana and Karna become the best of friends but we are never sure if the relationship is true or one based on mutually convenience. No one takes Karna's royal title seriously. For everyone, he remains suta-putra, the charioteer's son, the outsider. This is most evident in the archery contest organized by the king of Panchala for the hand of his daughter, Draupadi. When Karna goes to pick up the bow he is disqualified by the bride herself on grounds that a man of unknown origin and low rank cannot even contend to be her groom. Perhaps because of this public rejection, despite all his nobility, Karna does not come to Draupadi's rescue when she is publicly disrobed by the Kauravas. He quotes an ancient law, "A woman with more than four husbands is nothing but a public woman, a wh**e!" Technically he is right. But morally? It is this refusal to help the helpless in a moment of dire need that makes Karna, like other members of the Kuru nobility, such as Bhisma, a marked man in the eyes of Krishna. One curious Maharashtrian folklore states that later Draupadi secretly fell in love with Karna and this secret of hers was known only to Krishna. Karna and Duryodhana are inseparable like Krishna and Arjuna. Karna sides with Duryodhana even when Duryodhana does wrong. "The hand of friendship once given cannot be taken back," he tells Krishna. Krishna retorts, "Your integrity is wasted on a man without integrity. You may never go back on your word but he has - promised to return the Pandava lands after 13 years but refused to give back even a needlepoint of territory." Duryodhana's mother, Gandhari, resents his association with a lowly charioteer. Even Bhisma does not like Karna. Nor does Drona. For them he is the bad influence. They blame Karna for corrupting Duryodhana. In a way that is true. Without Karna, the Kauravas are nothing. Assured of Karna's unwavering loyalty, Duryodhana is unafraid to be arrogant and forceful, claim all rights to the inheritance, even though the elders believe at least half of it, if not all, belongs to the Pandavas. When war is declared, Krishna tries to make Karna defect but fails. He finally motivates Kunti to tell the truth for the sake of the Pandavas. Kunti goes to Karna and tells him all. He recoils. He realizes she is doing this for the Pandavas and not out of any love for him. "That's not true. I love you. I am only afraid of the truth," cries Kunti. Karna refuses to believe her. According to a Tamil folklore, Kunti plans to offer Karna milk of her breast she has reserved for him from the day of his birth. This milk has magical power and can render Karna invincible. Krishna is about to make the milk disappear, when Karna tells Kunti that he will not take milk denied to him at birth. He promises Kunti he will not kill any Pandava except Arjuna. With or without him she will always have five sons. Karna tries to earn merit and fame by becoming the lord of charity, a daan-veer'. Krishna takes advantage of this charitable nature and gets Indra, king of the gods, to ask as charity Karna's natural armor. Karna donates this leaving himself vulnerable. Impressed by Karna's unwavering commitment to charity, Indra gifts Karna a spear that never misses its mark but can be used only once. Karna reserves it for Arjuna, his great enemy, but Krishna forces him to use it against Ghatotkacha, the demon son of Bhima. It is almost as if Krishna is conspiring against Karna. At the height of the war, when Arjuna and Karna finally come face-to-face, a moment both have been preparing for years, the earth-goddess is instructed by Krishna to grab hold of Karna's chariot wheel. She does so. Karna tries to use the magical formula to release the chariot wheel but Parashurama's curse manifests itself right at that moment. He forgets the formula. In a fit of frustration, he throws down his bow and jumps off his chariot and tries to free the wheel himself. Krishna tells Arjuna to take advantage of the situation and shoot Karna. "But he carries no weapons and his back is turned towards me," protests Arjuna. Krishna goads him nevertheless. He is as helpless as Draupadi was when the Kauravas disrobed her in public, says Krishna. Show no mercy to the merciless, advises Krishna. Arjuna releases the arrow and Karna dies - shot in the back at a moment when he cannot even defend himself. Why did Krishna kill Karna in such a horrible way? Scholars say this is God's way of achieving karmic balance. In his previous life, Krishna was Rama. And Rama had sided with Surgiva, monkey son of Surya, the sun-god, and shot Bali, monkey son of Indra, the rain-god, in the back. As Krishna, it was necessary to reverse the situation. God sided with Arjuna, who was the son of Indra, while shooting Karna, the son of Surya, in the back. He who is blessed with divine favors in one lifetime loses it in the next; thus are the books of karma balanced and closure achieved.
Hello Nandini-good to see you here 😃
Loved your topic...Karnas character beautifully explained
And i agree too
Karna was a soft hearted charitable man-but owing to the fact that he was rejected by almost everyone
He craved for acceptance,which he got through Duryodhan
However his loyalty to Duryodhan landed him on the wrong side,which is one of the primary reasons why he had to be killed...
Karna i feel is a very human character,hes someone who you can identify with...
Karna was a victim of circumstances
Yet somewhere i feel that somewhere down the line he too was a cause of what all happened to him...
As you said him Publicly humiliating Draupadi-not coming forward to help a hapless woman
I think that there his ego,selfish nature came forward-all his charity is of no use if he couldn't even protect a woman,not to forget here he even doubted her character publicly
Karnas behavior here propelled him into the "bad gang"
Secondly,i feel Karnas Vengence towards the Pandavas-being able to go to any heights to defeat Arjun,or the Pandavas was also a reason for his downfall
Not that he was wrong,he was wronged-but at one point of time he forgot that he was crossing lines,going the wrong way just to achive that-not to forget him siding Duryodhan n he in turn fueling Karnas fire to his advantage didn't help either
He too broke some rules-like cheat Parshuram etc
He wasn't all innocent to me atleast
But i guess thats what makes Karnas character intresting-a good man who got on the wrong side,with wrong people in bad circumstances
PS:-i close my eyes n still think if Pankaj Dheer as Karna
The new actor is going to have a pretty tough job at hand!
OK, Even if we were to accept that circumstances were against Karna, there were some decisions that he took for which he and he alone is responsible.
First mistake was approaching Parashurama for advanced training in warfare, knowing very well that Parashurama detested Kshatriyas. He lied that he was a brahmin and got himself admitted. Lying to one's Guru is an unpardonable offence. Karna ought to have known it by then. He made a cardinal mistake there and incurred Parashurama's wrath. IMHO, there is nothing 'tragic' here.It was not as if there were no other Gurus in Aryavarta to teach warfare. Even if Dronacharya refused to admit Karna, there was always the Sandipani ashram which was open to students from both brahmin and kshatriya castes, from royal or ordinary backgrounds.So why did Karna have to go all the way in search of Parashurama, knowing very well he will have to tell a lie in front of his Guru?Second mistake- why did Karna take it upon himself to redefine ' generosity' ? Indra comes and asks for his Kavacha and Kundala and Karna just gives it away?Lucky that Indra just asked for the Kavacha and Kundala. What if Indra had, like Dronacharya, asked Karna to donate his right thumb? There is a limit to being generous. And even if Indra had come in the guise of a brahmin, the shastras clearly state what a brahmin may ask and what not. Mistake number two - being over generous- to the point of stupidity.Third - who asked him to give a promise to Kunti that he will not kill any of the Pandavas other than Arjuna? By giving such a promise, he is already diluting his loyalty towards Duryodhan. If he claims his loyalty is towards Duryodhana, then he had no business giving such a promise to Kunti. If he could bring himself to kill Arjuna- he could have very well tried to kill the other Pandavas too. He should have just sent Kunti back with a flea in her ear. Mistake number three : misplaced fraternal loveAll there were mistakes which costed him his life and which he could have very well avoided.The only incident which was truly tragic in his life-was- being unable to compete in Draupadi's swayamvara.
I actually weighed in on Karna in my first post in this thread (pg 1)
Aside from what I wrote there, I agree w/ the others. Lying to Parashurama was an unpardonable sin - as is pointed out, he could have approached anyone. Also, he could have asked Kunti to prove her maternity of him - and sent her back w/ a flea in her ear. In fact, this whole business of him giving away anything if asked at the right time i.e. after his daily pujas was ridiculous.In fact, talking about his loyalty to Duryodhan, it's now even fair to question that. I mean, if he was really loyal to Duryodhan, he should have allowed the Pandavas to turn over to him all claims, and in turn, he could have turned that all over to Duryodhan. Now, that would have been loyalty. Also, had Karna killed Yudhisthir in the war, he would have put Duryodhan in an advantage, although it's very likely that in such an event, Bhima would have claimed the throne at least to prevent Duryodhan from getting it, and continued w/ the revenge campaign.In fact, had Indra asked Karna for his head - Karna is said to have boasted that in this situation, he'd give up his life to anyone who wanted it - that would have been it for Karna. He'd have died, and his threat to the Pandavas would have been extinct forever.But bottom line - while Karna was somewhat overrated and responsible for much of his actions, I do blame Kunti for 90% of what he had to go through. And Krishna as well for keeping her secret.
Originally posted by: swati2008
Nice post...Karna is my favorite character too...he had many mistakes as pointed out by many members in their replies...but thats what make his character more interesting...his tragic life, injustices done to him, his strength, his warrier skills, his mistakes, his too much genorisity makes him more human...i would call Karna an anti-hero...a character who has virtues as well as vices and is much more loved than the hero...
The author of this thread pointed out a Marathi folklore that Draupadi being in love with Karna ...we had similar stories in Oriya folklores...the story goes like this...Draupadi was in love with Karna and wanted to marry him...Krishna promised her she would marry to greatest Dhanurdhar ...and she thought he means Karna...but on Swayambar day when Karna was going to take aim...Krishna gestured Draupadi and she rejected him saying she would not marry a Suta-putra...but she always loved Karna...Karna too was in love with her and knew about Draupadi's feelings too...Many authors have written poems and stories on this...i remember reading one such poem in my oriya literature book in school...i dnt remember the details...but it was like Draupadi questioning Krishna why he gestured her to reject Karna as he very well knew that she was in love with him and wanted to marry him...Krishna replied that he would have more than happy if Karna married her...as then she would not have to marry five men...as Karna had all those five qualities that she asked from Lord Shiva to be in her husband in previous birth...he was righteous, strong, dhanurdhar, handsome and loving...if Karna wanted to win her for himself...but he wanted to give her to Duryodhana...so he gestured her to reject him...There was another poem named Surya-putra Karna...it sort Karna describing his feelings...how his mother rejected him...there the poet described Karna's psyche during the Draupadi's humiliation in Dice Hall too...it says Karna wanted to oppose the happening and protect Draupadi...but his loyalty to Duryodhana...and his rejection in Swayambara stopped him...These two poems are fiction...not based on original epic...but oriya folklore alongwith poet's imagination...so i hope no body mind them...But whatever his feelings...i can never forgive him for his part in Draupadi's cheerharan...its the only thing i dislike about him...disrespecting a woman can never be justified...
Originally posted by: Sabhayata
Well unlike many people here i dont see karna as a tragic hero. But more as tragic character but definitely not a hero. There are many heroes and villains in Mahabhart but karna for me isn't any one of them he is more of grey shaded character for me who wasn't either completely good(like pandavas) or completely evil like (Kauravas).He was more of grey shaded character. He did many heroic things but he also did many un heroic things.
Like everyone said his generosity was one of his admirable traits. I dont think he was generous to the point of stupidity .Yes if we see the fact that he donated kavach and kundal from today's standards and concepts it will see idiotic but we need to see that act as per that times concepts of dharma not today then it wont seem stupid. He stood by his promise of not killing any other pandav.
But he did many un heroic things also which were big sins and cant be forgotten. Like humiliating draupadi in court he was absolutely ok with her being disrobed. And a person who willingly humiliates a women is never hero in my eyes. He was also part of abhimnayu's killing. Other than that he was part of all of dhuryodhan's injustices right from laksha garah .That is the very reason why god himself kirshna ji asked Arjun to kill him in a 'Adharam' way because he was a 'adharami' as well because of all these reasons
So yes he is a tragic character but not definitely a hero
Originally posted by: Sabhayata
Varaali
I think the reason why karan gave his kavach and kundal was because of a particular time in the day. I mean as far as i remember there was a particular time in every day either morning or something during which if anyone would ask karan for anything he would give it. And anything is anything. That is how he had conducted his life till date and that is a promise he made to himself that during that particular time of the day if anyone would ask something of him he wont refuse. That is why he didn't refuse Indira even though indira basically asked him for his life. Now it may seem stupid to you but to me it seems to be the main reason why he is known as 'Danveer' Karan. There are so many great and good character's in Mahabharata but only karan is known as danveer because he could give away anything even his life if some one asked him for that in a particular time of the day. Yes he hadn't taken this oath like Bhishma had but this is something he had been doing all his life and had promised to himself to do it.I remember his own father surya dev had come before indira and told him what indira was planning to do and surya had asked him to refuse and that is when karan said that he doesn't refuse anyone for anything during that time and hi didn't even if it meant life. Now was this his greatness or stupidity. Well i guess it depends on everyone's' POV. But for me it is part of his greatness that no matter what he stood by what he believed in
As for his agreeing not to kill any other pandav except for Arjun well i guess he was trying to do justice to both his mother and his friend duryodhan. If he would have done everything you said it would have been an intelligent strategist but that not who he was he was just a generous person who was trying to do justice to his newfound family and his long time friend. Yes he did make wrong decisions in the process of doing that but his intentions were good he didn't want to betray duryodhan neither did he want to hurt his mother so choose a middle ground. Right or wrong again depends but no one can deny that his intentions were good
BTW I don't believe I wrote so many good things about Karan I don't even like him
Let us see this analytically- w/o bringing in dharma / adharma.
There was a kingdom and two prospective Crown princes. Fine. Kingdom got divided, each cousin getting one half. By perseverance and hard work, skill and prayer, Yudhishthira's kingdom becomes more prosperous of the two.Duryodhana gets jealous. Anything wrong in that? He makes no pretense of being a saint. Invites Yudhishthira for a game of dice.
- Who asked Yudhishthira to accept the invitation?
- On coming to know that Shakuni would throw the dice on behalf of Duryodhann, Yudhishthira could have still backed off. As Krishna would mention later on, Yudhishthira should have also said that since Shakuni was going to throw play on behalf of Duryodhan, it was only fair that he, Yudhishthira, also gets a proxy to play for him and Yudhishthira should have invited Krishna to play on his behalf.
- Who asked to keep increasing the stakes?
- And above all, who asked him to play a second time, knowing very well what happened the first time?
Obviously Duryodhana was unfair when he did not return the Pandavas' kingdom after the exile- but which ruler is so generous? Duryodhana was Duryodhana- not Raghukul's Bharata. This may be a reflection of Duryodhan's lust for power but not evil in anyway.
Mahabharata is about politics, succession, ambition and the quest for power- not even remotely about dharma / adharma.
The Mahabharata is a tale of uncontrolled lusts - lust for land, lust for wealth, lust for power, lust for honour, lust for fame, lust for acceptance, lust for vengeance, lust for pleasure, and, above all, plain sexual lust. It is the story of lust in every imaginable form and the terrible consequences that uncontrolled lust leads to.
The Sanskrit word for lust is kama. The Mahabharata does not criticize kama per se., nor does Indian culture do so. What is criticized is uncontrolled kama, kama that controls us, kama that becomes our master, that makes us its slaves. The Vedic culture sees kama as the beginning of the universe. The brilliant Nasadiya Sukta of the Rig Veda, the Hymn of Creation, speaks of Kama as the first being to emerge, or the first essence to come into being and then becomes the cause of everything else coming into existence. The Taittiriya Upanishad speaks of the spark of desire entering the heart of the Unmanifest Being, which then creates out of itself everything else, abstract and concrete, real and illusory, moving and unmoving, all.
It is for this reason that Krishna both praises Kama in the Gita and warns us against it. In one place he says Kama is himself - is God - so long as it does not violate Dharma. When it violates dharma, what is divine becomes demoniac: dharmaaviruddhe bhooteshu kamo'smi bharatarshabha - "I am kama that is not against dharma in beings." In another place he takes its name as man's worst enemy.
The beauty of Mahabharata is that no character is perfectly good or perfectly bad (whereas Ramayana is clearer differentiation in terms of good and bad). Each person is a shade of grey and in varying tones and shades. Another point of interest is that the supposed villain Ravana does not follow the law (or dharma) by outright kidnapping of another's wife but in Mahabharata (which happens after Ramayana and thus we can see the deterioration in people, their characters and the dharma in general) the supposed villains Kauravs and Dhritarashtra follow the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law and Pandavs are forced to act adharma-ly in their battle against Kauravs!After the war is over and Gandhari has lost all sons, she is filled with fury and bitterness and she asks Ved Vyasa - "How can brave men, for the sake of their lives, abandon in battle the dharma prescribed by wise men? How indeed can they?" The core question is - "Is a war against adharma, fought by adharma means, really for dharma?"Ved Vyasa explains to her that that life is a limitless series of births and deaths, that each one of us has had numberless mothers and fathers, sons and wives, and we are going to have numberless more of them. We have lived through innumerable meetings and partings, will live through countless more of them, just as we are now living through new meetings and partings every day. And in this eternal journey, there is only one thing that will stand with us: dharma. Dharma is the source of all worldly comforts and possessions; pleasures come from that, prosperity comes from that, everything comes from that. Vyasa's advice is: never give up dharma; not out of fear, not for pleasures, not out of greed, nor even for the sake of life itself. For, dharma is eternal, and joys and sorrows transitory. The soul is the Eternal, what makes it appear bound is transitory. And yet people do not live by dharma. Why, asks the sage, why?
Two points I will make and retire from this debate.
All of Karna's brothers (the sons of Radha and Adhiratha) take part in the MB war. So they have also been trained in warfare, despite being Sutaputras.My second question is to the supporters of Karna's generosity.Both Indra and Kunti approach Karna after he has finished his prayers- to ask him something.If Karna felt he was obliged to give Indra whatever he (Indra) asked, why didn't he give Kunti whatever she asked ? What happened to his sense of generosity then?If he can give Kunti a modified version of what she asked for, he could have done the same with Indra too.
Originally posted by: Sabhayata
Varaali
Can you let me know if Mahabharata is not about Dharma vs adharma then why is Mahabharata known as dharam yudh. The fact that Mahabharata is known as Dharam yudh is not an opinion but a fact because it has been mentioned several times in the book as well. Several times Krishna says that this is a dharma yudh hence even if you have to kill your relatives for this dharma yudh its justified
Yes Mahabharata is also about all that you said politics ,,succession etc but its also about dharma vs adharma or else why would it be called dharma yudh again and again.
Now whether you agree its dharma yudh or not it depends on you .Its your POV and i respect that but in the book and even by krishna himself Mahabharata is reffered to as dharma yudh i.e dharam vs adharam. Now whtehr you agree with this personally is a different issue
For example like i said Yudhishtir was the only one who wasnt sent to hell after death becuase he was considered to be the most righteous.Do i agree with this?100% not i think he deserved to saty in hell the longest i think he was a major reason why Mahabaharat happened in the first place.But what is written is written and i can disagree with it.Similarly people can interpret Mahabahart in any way they want but in the book Mahabharat is reffered to as dharam yudh but whether it was actually a dharam yudh or not that discussion can go on and on as it depends on different people's POV
Originally posted by: lovesunshine
karna kept his real talents/astras and powers only for war against arjun...the viraat war, karan was facing the virat prince uttar and a eunuch brihannala (no one knew then that it was arjun as brihannala).
So karan was caught of guard but indeed he was better archer than arjun..
talking abt kunti karna samvaad - kunti asked for something from karna whcih he had already given away to his friend duryodhan - his loyalty..so jo cheez pehle daan kardi ho woh vapas toh nahi le sakte naa..
the war is called dharma yudhh because in those days all the kingdoms followed only one religion which is the sanatan dharma and its basic principles were that one should recognize and shoulder ones own responsiblities towards this society and this earth...
the main objective for krishna to have/plan this war is to teach the society abt what happens when one keeps doing sins...in the end everything is destroyed..
as it is i feel neither pandavas nor the kauravas won the war...it was shakuni who won ..as in the end what happend was exactly what shakuni wanted for kuru family...destruction...though pandavas won n ruled but in the end they also were not that pleased after killing family members n sit on the throne washed with their blood..n wear the crown full of their blood ..
so in the end shakuni was successful n destroying the kuru family that bheeshma was so proud of...
Originally posted by: Justlikethat1
A very well written post👏
But I am going to have to disagree,.. Who should be called a hero? That is one of the main questions that one needs to answer before calling some like Karna, raavan or Duryodhan a hero.Does difficulties in life, skill and talent alone make one a hero? No.. A hero is born when he stands up to certain principles that befit humanity as a whole.I have no disagreement with regards to karna's skills. I have no questions about his generosity. I agree that he faced adversities in life and life find give him a load of pain right from birth. But again, no one in Mahabharata lived life happily all the time. Each and every character had to face difficulties at various stages of their life. The strong ones came out shining by not compromising their basic decencies and principles. Certain characters chose a path that led them down the path if adharam and Karna was one such person.Comparison with Arjun always happens. Karna did have an Astra that would have defeated Arjun in the war. But if that is the only criteria that is going to make him better than Arjun, then no.. I disagree. I consider Arjun and Karna to be equivalents and in war, the victory can only be to one side. Lord Krishna knee this. When he helped Arjun, he was increasing the possibilities if Arjun's victory. Thus does not mean that Arjun could not have handled Karna. Infact after the 13 years of exile ended, Arjun single handed lye defeated the kauravas army, Duryodhan and Karna. He sent them packing without help. So does it mean that Arjun was better than these two! Yes., in this face off.. The same applies to Karna too. He had the upper hand in kurushetra because of the nagaastra.Now as a friend, I do not rate Karna high. Someone who sees his best friend make glaring mistakes and yet in his need for revenge,, just instigates his friend more without actually bring the wise spoke in the equation, cannot be termed as a great friend.Let me not even go to the vasthraharan or the killing of abhimanyu.So no. Karna was no hero. At best he was grey with a lot of vices that overshadowed the better half of his nature. He was indeed unlucky. But that is no excuse for other things he did..
Originally posted by: Justlikethat1
Let me try to be more clear.I agree that Karna had some great qualities. He had nagaastra that was fatal to Arjun in mb. That is why Lord Krishna put his leg down to make the chariot lower a bit so that the asthra when used hit Arjun on thrown ans spared him otherwise. Karna was granted a boon to use this asthra once in war and at that time, Arjun was saved by Lord Krushna. No doubt.But if Arjun was so bad when compared to Karna, how do you explain his victory after the exile? M point is, both Karna and Arjun were great warriors but at the end of the day Arjun was fighting for Dharma while Karna was fighting for the opposite.A hero is one who fights for the right cause. Gori was a great warrior too and he fought the Rajputs. Will one call him a hero inspire of his victory?Again, I do think that Karna was a man who had immense good qualities. He just had more grey than white in his character.His actions in total do not paint a nice picture for he sided with the wrong people and performed many wrong actions.I will never take away his good points. I agree with all that. But he was no hero.
Originally posted by: koolsadhu1000
I will put it this way
He can be called the anti hero of the epicif Arjun was the heroDuryodhan the villainKarna was the tragic anti hero .The anti hero always has more grey in him .But i will not be very harsh with him . Its his mother i blame the most .If he was born of a tejasvi godif his natural genes bubbled like volcanic lava and were not satisfied being a mere charioteerif the craving for archery was in his genesand yet he was cruelly condemned to lead a stifling life , puzzled at his own oddities when they were but natural reactions , unknown to himit was more the fault of his mother who put him in a basket and sent him defenceless down the riverthen he himself .It is all very well to say all had some problem or the other but they came out shining butnot one of them led his life ...they were princes who had security as they were born into what was rightfully their statewhile he was placed in a state that was lower , rather , left to DIE .i would not feel this sympathy for him if he was a charoiteer's son and was ambitious .But he was being true to his genes .If Eklavya was trying for something ambitiouslyKarna was giving in to natural tendencies ...he could NOT be anything else .2 children were sent in baskets down the riverMosesKarna .In the story of Moses the mother did it as it was her best shot at saving her child . He would have been killed anyways by the Pharaoh's soldiers .In the story of Karna the mother did it to save HER name from stigma . Getting a boon to preserve her virginity , she did away with the baby that was an embarassment and went on to marry and have a life wheninstead of sending the innocent baby down the river she could have drowned herself in the river . She didn't do that .All his life he battled with the caste stigma as he didn't fit in . Why he didn't fit in ? All knew it ...all . Bheeshma and Vidur knew it ...Vyasa had told them . Kunti knew it . Krishna knew it .If he had the Sun god's tej in his blood he simply couldn't be accused of getting too big for his boots . He was adhering to the truth while others were squashing him is the story .Where his nobility is unparalleledin giving Indra the kavach kundalas inspite of recognising himin telling Kunti that he will NOT be now known as a Kounteya but will always be Radheyain acknowledging his parents at the skills display competition although recognition would be detrimental for his chances among the caste conscious punditsin telling Kunti that her 5 sons will forever livein leaving his brothers but making it ultimately only between him and Arjunin refusing Krishna's ultimate temptation ...to have the glory of being the eldest Pandava and having Draupadi as his wife ...Draupadi who had only looked down on him .All was refused by him .There is character there .Regarding the point ...was he really a good friendBheeshma too sided with Duryodhan ...does it lessen his nobility ?Duryodhan was a king with his own firm mind . He had helped Karna who was loyal to the salt till the end though many temptations were advanced by Sri Krishna purposefully .His loyalty even impressed Krishna .but Krishna's purpose was achieved . He wanted to create emotional turmoil in him and he did it . He knew exactly how Karna would react , he was such an accurate judge of character.All he wanted was the emotional blackmail .I fault him for the vastra haran behaviour where he shows his personal anger towards Draupadi ...justified or not , no woman deserves THIS . About the purposeful law breaking in Abhimanyu's case i am confused even today as ALL broke laws ...some for dharma , some for adharma ...and when breaking of rules starts , it very dangerous and ambiguous .Arjun tried to make up for all this unfair senseless horror by caring for Karna's son Vrishketu after Karna's death . He was in Arjun's company a lot , and it is said Arjun was especially affectionate to him . He accompanied Arjun on his campaigns to annex kingdoms during Yudhishtir's Ashwamedha yagna and Arjun taught him archery personally and made him the best archer .This is what i know .
Originally posted by: koolsadhu1000
I hope they show the Bheeshma Karna scene when Bheeshma lay dying well and not with some contrived nonsense put in .
When Bheeshma lay on the bed of arrows , many warriors went to pay their last obeisance . Karna too went . He stood at the feet and his hot tears fell on Bheeshma's feet .Before this , they had a cold relationship . Bheeshma had always put him down . Infact Bheeshma had forbidden from him participating in the war when he was commander as he had called Draupadi a wh**e in the vastraharan . Anyone who insults my kulvadhu this way shall not fight along my side he had declared .Karna apologised about this in his meeting . It weighed heavily on him . He had been very very angry with Draupadi's constant contempt and had lost it .It is interesting to know that Karna addressed Bheeshma as Grandfather in this meeting and Bheeshma as grandson . Bheeshma told him that he knew of his identity long back coz Vyasa told him . Bheeshma also told him that he put him down simply to cut Duryodhan down to size .Bheeshma told him he was one of the best archers he had seen .Bheeshma then advised him to go to the Pandava side but Karna said it was too late , that wouldn't happen , he had made peace with his destiny .It was an emotional meeting .It must be noted that Bheeshma and Karna were almost not on speaking terms but when Karna saw his valour in battle he was so impressed he was full of praise . Such was his maganimity .
Pyaar Kii Ye Ek Kahaani
Kyunki Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi 2
