should ruqayia be given second chance? - Page 13

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AntaresVega thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Cleo12345

Very good post Mandy. Thought provoking. It is always refreshing to see things from a different perspective. I'll share my views here...I am commenting on reel not real Rukkiya.

1. Is her jealousy justified? Yes... Can her recent actions be justified? ...I don't think so. A lot of us give her credit for accepting the presence of other women in Jalal's life. Is she being magnanimous ? Or should we feel sorry for her because the love of her life has other women in his life? To help us answer these questions, it important to first understand polygamous relationships and how real women cope with it. I'll use the example of some polygamous sects in the US...yes, I am talking about the United states of America. Just because, I have had an opportunity to study and interact with a few. Sects like the members of the fundamentalist church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ( FLDS) practice 'pleural marriage' . After reading about them and watching news/documentaries, I was curious to know how can these 21st century women be comfortable living this kind of lifestyle when they clearly have options and support of their govt and people. I personally know a couple of these women who were part of such relationships but later moved out ( for different reasons). According to them most( not all) women are very comfortable with this lifestyle and don't want any help to get out of the situation. In fact a polygamous family filed a lawsuit questioning the anti polygamy law in the US last year and a judge in state of Utah ( has the max number of poly families) struck down an important part of the law as unconstitutional!!! These families are now rejoicing( including women!!!!!)
What can explain their acceptance of this type family structure? My theory after talking to them...since this is what they see while growing up they view it as ' normal'. They explain, ' Do you have a problem with your parents choosing to have other kids besides you? Are you jealous that they are also very important to your parents? Honestly, I couldn't see the similarity...but they did.
Same is true for 16 th century women. They accepted polygamy as 'normal'. Rukkiya accepting Jalal's other wives is not an act of magnanimity...neither should it be used as an excuse to explain her recent mean and vengeful behavior. If she absolutely didn't want to share her husband physically or emotionally, she had a choice...divorce him...some may argue...divorce in 16th century wasn't acceptable...well, neither was expecting husbands to be monogamous...tough luck Rukkiya.

2. She has already been given a second chance. BB and Rukkiya committed a somewhat similar crime... They conspired to degrade Jodha in front of everyone for their selfish reasons. One used a medicine to mimic pregnancy to dishonor her, other used religion and Mughal law to do the same. Infact, in Rukkiya's case, she was the mastermind as well. Had Jalal not trusted Jodha in both the cases, she would have been punished severely per Mughal Laws. When exposed, while BB was punished, Rukkiya got away with a harsh warning by Jalal in the privacy of their Hojra. Jalal had evidence against Rukkiya...and finally she did confess. Yet, he didnt punish her...infact he protected her and did not reveal the facts and evidence to anyone else. So she did get a second chance.

However, he was upset that she lied to him and warned her not to plot or scheme again...did she really listen to him? ...in retrospect , it is clearly a very cunning and unfair move on her part to ask Jalal to vote first. He voted for her(his reasons- another post) knowing that he is giving her back her position and Audha which will make her more ferocious towards everyone who voted against her. He also knew that she did not deserve it after the idol incident. She had an agenda and chose to let Jodha win the election.Therefore, this was her third chance. He finally saw through it and was clearly upset but civil with her. She continues to lie to him and wants credit for her devious act as ' barrapan'

So the question is should she get a forth chance?


Right! You can't look at 16 the century the way you look at 21st century. My view: Ruqayya was the one who treats others as dirt.

@ Mandy,

Even if she has positives, her vices cloud all of them. She continues to hate and plot. She continues to keep ranting of her audha, her dosti with Jalal, her importance..blah..blah. Till yesterday, did Jalal even say a thing to her? No. Her wishes always granted, her demands always met, all her tantrums were ignored, her meanness towards others was sidelined. There has to be a breaking point and for Jalal that happened when Ruq tried to defame Jo using chela tactics and that too involving sensitive religious issues. None of her qualities dignify her as a queen. No matter what the insecurity and inner turmoil, the wives of the ruler of India ought to have some dignity. It was more of her forcing her audha into everyone's face rather than bringing it out through her actions. Why should Jalal even love someone as mean as Ruqayya? I think we love being around people who spread positivity and energy all around, not around those who always rant, throw tantrums. These kind of people just drain the energy out of you. Was Ruqu even purely happy for a single day at all?No. She'd somehow demean others, plot or exemplify herself. When Jo newly arrived in Agra, her position was much worse than Ruq. She had to conquer people's hearts biased towards religion, she had a husband who openly hated her, she didn't have her close family, she experienced a cultural shock. Yet she tried to be happy, she smiled infront of HB, Salima to almost everybody else she met. If Ruqu had tries that for even just a day in her life, she would have been much better today. That is why Jo has become respectable today and that is why Ruq has fallen in my eyes.

I only pity Ruq that hers is a world full of suffocation... Suffocation because she chooses to be mean, ungrateful and arrogant every second she breathes. I don't think Jalal is wrong. Jalal has always listened to her. Polygamy was a norm in those days and you can't feel what they felt, nor can you step into their shoes. I can't imagine myself in her place as I can't remain mean for long and I look for positivity so Ruqs attitude is definitely not what I am comfortable with.

I would however love to see her redeemed. I would love to see her feel the brightness of sunshine instead of sulking in the dark. I would love her to spread warmth with pure intentions. This is not something Jalal can bring about. Sitting and talking about his feelings would only rile her up. Only she can bring about change in herself with the help of her god. She needs support and encouragement from her near and dear ones but that can only happen if she's showing an inclination to reform, will power to change her life. This is something she lacks and I don't blame Jalal or HB or someone else for that matter. She has ample sense to see the right path. (Afterall she managed the Harem and did Jalal ke diamaag per hukumat!!)




That's my two cents.
Edited by AntaresVega - 11 years ago
cocoatree thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
As POV , Ruku had failed to grab in first chance itself , so a question mark again whether she able to stand up for second chance , till she was Jalal's best childhood friend , and they were very close to each other ..But always in mode of friendship just a sharing words not a heartful mode..Neither Ruku never been Jalal's wife in these years..As a emperor she couldn't make recognise good as well as bad things..Just she needs her audha in first place but she never take a chance of making her life meaningful towards Jalal as a friend nor a lover and finally not as wife too..Becoz Jalal always feel alone inside his heart , he was restless and had a deep fear of loneliness ..But Jodha had filled those gaps by analysing his small holes in which he couldn't get a small piece of pleasing n refreshing soothy love which he got by Jodha..Jalal had a heart but it deeply sinked inside , but ruku not even try to recover his pricked heart in which he couldn't get tasteness of real love from past.And for ruku don't know to reciprocate his love towards Jalal then she can't b his best childhood friend nor a wife too..
Between very nice post mandy !😃
Edited by chocobrownies - 11 years ago
AntaresVega thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Sorry double post

Originally posted by: AntaresVega


Right! You can't look at 16 the century the way you look at 21st century. My view: Ruqayya was the one who treats others as dirt.

@ Mandy,

Even if she has positives, her vices cloud all of them. She continues to hate and plot. She continues to keep ranting of her audha, her dosti with Jalal, her importance..blah..blah. Till yesterday, did Jalal even say a thing to her? No. Her wishes always granted, her demands always met, all her tantrums were ignored, her meanness towards others was sidelined. There has to be a breaking point and for Jalal that happened when Ruq tried to defame Jo using chela tactics and that too involving sensitive religious issues. None of her qualities dignify her as a queen. No matter what the insecurity and inner turmoil, the wives of the ruler of India ought to have some dignity. It was more of her forcing her audha into everyone's face rather than bringing it out through her actions. Why should Jalal even love someone as mean as Ruqayya? I think we love being around people who spread positivity and energy all around, not around those who always rant, throw tantrums. These kind of people just drain the energy out of you. Was Ruqu even purely happy for a single day at all?No. She'd somehow demean others, plot or exemplify herself. When Jo newly arrived in Agra, her position was much worse than Ruq. She had to conquer people's hearts biased towards religion, she had a husband who openly hated her, she didn't have her close family, she experienced a cultural shock. Yet she tried to be happy, she smiled infront of HB, Salima to almost everybody else she met. If Ruqu had tries that for even just a day in her life, she would have been much better today. That is why she has become respectable today and that is why Ruq has fallen in my eyes.

I only pity Ruq that hers is a world full of suffocation... Suffocation because she chooses to be mean, ungrateful and arrogant every second she breathes. I don't think Jalal is wrong. Jalal has always listened to her. Polygamy was a norm in those days and you can't feel what they felt, nor can you step into their shoes. I can't imagine myself in her place as I can't remain mean for long and I look for positivity so Ruqs attitude is definitely not what I am comfortable with.

I would however love to see her redeemed. I would love to see her feel the brightness of sunshine instead of sulking in the dark. I would love her to spread warmth with pure intentions. This is not something Jalal can bring about. Sitting and talking about his feelings would only rile her up. Only she can bring about change in herself with the help of her god. She needs support and encouragement from her near and dear ones but that can only happen if she's showing an inclination to reform, will power to change her life. Afterall, why would someone help her if she continues to fan her Audra with a wicked smile... it only implies that she's quite happy the way she is. She does not have the desire or will to change. This is something she lacks and I don't blame Jalal or HB or someone else for that matter. She has ample sense to see the right path. (Afterall she managed the Harem and did Jalal ke diamaag per hukumat!!)




That's my two cents.

Edited by AntaresVega - 11 years ago
munni_rajatfan thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Cleo

She was certainly wrong in the idol issue. It was an 🤢 act. She is already on her second chance already legally. But Jalal was indifferent and drifted away even before the incident. Personally, should Jalal not try to reason out with a friend of many years ?
What was wrong in resigning a post that she thought was keeping her away from Jalal? What is devious about that?


talking about indifference, ruku was indifferent towards jalal when he was devastated bcoz of BK's death. as maham had pointed out tht time, jalal was crying but she went out to settle harem probs. neither jodha was there tht time nor jalal was away from ruku. yes jalal didnt mind these things tht time, but today he is watching jodha, who cares for others emotions. jalal is also a human being who wants people to be with him. he had always consoled ruku whenever she was upset, but he didnt expected anything in return. so why not ruku is blamed for her indifferent attitude??? as per the balance goes its the responsibility of both, not just jalal. in those days it was the queen's responsibility was well to maintain the balance despite all the insecurity.
jodah thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
yes rukkaiya should be given a chance
she always been a friend to jalal more then wife
& it is said when a friend make mistakes don't forget the good things they did for you

sun29 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago


when Jalal found out that rukku was involved in murthi kaand that is breaking mughal law...he became unfair as the Emperor to save his friend from humiliation before others...he allowed the election to continue and ruqiayya gained votes due to this yet he did not utter one word outside even though his love was on the other side...yet you want proof of jALAL being considerate to ruqaiyya???? and why he flinched coz she failed to show even an ounce of remorse for what she did inspite of Jalal telling her she dared him and fell from his eyes...she was already onto her next plan

and all those who say ruqaiyya wanted to spend time with him yet gave up the post ...she did not...she gave up the place and planned a trip with Jodha's husband to separate them and gloat it on her face...she planned nothing for her husband or her friend..and this is what jALAL found out and hence his behaviour to her

if Jalal had behaved otherwise with ruqaiya forgetting what she did a day back i would have whacked him...

and she is going to lose out on her chances and test his patience to the extreme limit before he bursts out ...for ruqaiyya to learn a lesson of life she needs to be brought down on earth

if she is his wife ...the other women are also his wife how come none protested when ruqaiyya treated them as animals...

and let us not even talk about friendship...i can write an essay on how they are not ...no one with a best friend in life would be telling everyone who can hear that how lonely he is in life ...that itself concludes he has no one indeed

and for every question about halal being a husband ,friend i can ask the same question and give the same answer...let her first be his wife and friend and whatever ruqaiyya has done for Jalal ..Jalal has done much much more for her ...so let us not even compare...

wife is a wife be it first or last...you want respect ,then give respect...am wondering if Jalal is also responsible for how she treated Salima beghum too???

i have always empathised with ruqaiyya but i refuse to be partial to her coz Jalal is in love with Jodha...

if Jalal did not make an effort with ruqaiyya the same holds for her as well...

everyday ,every time a man is not wrong ...and relationship consists of two not one person can make or break a relationship...

and Jalal will never dump Ruqaiyya ..he may get angry with her but he will never dump her ...yes she will lose her hold in his life and that is coz she allowed herself to be led astray ...but he will never desert her ...maybe that will teach her to value him more
Edited by sun29 - 11 years ago
Cleo12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: happygolucky099



SHE IS NOT THROWN IN THRASH
JALAL WAS NOT EVEN UPSET WITH HER FOR MURTI ISSUE
DI JODHA HELPED RUQU IN TASNEEM TRACK
BUT WHAT RUQU DID IN RETURN???


Let us be fair and not forget that she saved Jodha's life twice. First, during the MC track and second, Jodha's suicide track. She was the first one to tell Jalal that Jodha was capable of ending her life
Therefore, I always gave her the benefit of the doubt...till post Ben track. if good ( Ruku is not good but grey to begin with) people make one mistake after another...and refuse to learn from their mistakes, they need to be dealt firmly. ...they can't be forgiven for hurting people because of their past deeds...does this theory apply in real life. If a saint commits a murder, does he deserve to be pardoned...no. Therefore, I can understand Jalal indifference towards her.
history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Adi and Abhay

Nobody can deny the existence of MUZ of her importance in Mughal court during the reign of Akbar or that she was Salim's mother. She was a respected and intelligent lady, given her political influence. But as for the love story is concerned, ...it is individual interpretations.
Nobody remembered it before Ashutosh Gowarikar or Ekta Kapoor did!


Salima too was given a lot of importance at that time as accepted by all. Was there a smashing love story between Salima and Akbar too...?
Well, whenever Akbar is mentioned so far he is only remembered for his vision and achievements. Not for his romance...
Please correct me if I am wrong.
(Gulp...I know that I am stepping on an active landmine here......but I am eager to know the proofs for the epic love story. Even in Abhay's first thread, there is more proof of her existence and importance, but love story...no. Akbar's religious policy. He had allowed hk to practice her religion grom the start of their marriage...so it was not under her influence...Jalal of the serial explains that clearly in Angoori Bagh the other day. His participation in Hindu festivals is proof of his own wide thinking)
Mandy, sorry to go off topic.😕
Am also curious to know if there was an intense love storyu between Salima and Akbar.😳





Sandhya,


**********************************************************************************************************


For your points in blue:

KDR81 has written "enough" comments.
Just one info, before Ashutosh's movie ALSO they were remembered, provided we thought of them.😊


I am giving just some PROOF to you, of her existence.
Go through these old books. All mention her.

Yes, these are called CHRONICLES..!..which are not easily accessible.
Even i have not read all of them.


1. Khalsat-i-Tawarikh, written somewhere 1597-1607. in Persian

2. Khyat of Rajasthan, around 1660's.

3. One book of history written in the court of King/ruler of Gujarat in 1601-12 . This book says Akbar's favorite wife was mother of Salim. 😆 (I am writing only for you.)
Just think, the time was 16th century, still EVEN in Gujarat people know about Akbar and MUZ😲 and mention them.DO you need a more BIG proof..??...They were VERY FAMOUS in their times if you SEARCH THE DUST of chronicles..!...

4. The FAMOUS memoirs of Colonel Tod of 19th century.(Though he used Jodha's name there.)


Sorry, these books are not published commercially.
The only point i am telling you is ONE NEEDS TO SEARCH TOO HARD.
They were very much present before Ashutosh's movie.
They are NOT Ekta's or Ashutosh's RE-creation.

(I have more references FROM CONTEMPORARY sources . But i feel these are enough..!..)

And, hence i/KDR81/Lizzy refuse to accept this clause about JA.😊
How can one deny this WITHOUT reading anything..???..😊

BTW, Even Salima Begum is NOT mentioned in these books, as MUZ is mentioned..!..



**********************************************************************************************************


For your points in red

If i get any LOVE STORY of Akbar and Salima, then i will definitely share it.😲😕

I or KDR81/Lizzy or any one i have come across DID NOT tell me this.
This is the FIRST DOUBT of this type i am reading today .


Just for info:
JA story does NOT require proofs.. Shah Jahan needed Taj Mahal for that. Not Akbar. 😊.
He got enough palaces for her..!..

Still FYI..Comparison between Salima and MUZ.. (though i don't like it.!.😊)

1. Akbar got palaces for MUZ EVERYWHERE not Salima.
2. Akbar took MUZ to dargahs MOST OF ALL times not Salima.
3. Akbar had MUZ's palaces near his palace not Salima's.
4. Akbar had a corridor connecting his Khwabgah to MUZ's palace('s') not Salima's.
5. Akbar took MUZ with him even while proceeding on a war, not Salima. (Wait for this in show.)


I don't feel i need to write more about the differences.
Respect + Understanding and Affection are different feelings.


Also, as you mentioned regarding religious policy of Akbar. Here also MUZ's name is VERY MUCH present. Though proof is not required Still, i give one:


The Oxford Encyclopedia Of Women in World History, Vol-4, Page-656, notes the name of Hk/Jodha/MUZ as an influential wife in Akbar's life, who exemplified his religious tolerance and also in shaping many POLICIES in the Mughal Empire.😊

I do not need this reference. But i am giving you, as you focus on "PROOFS".😊



He was a man of multiple tastes. He was NOT just a administrator. But more then that..!..

Also, when you will go to FS, you can very much see the pavillions there, which he got constructed there, for leisure purposes.

Ain-i-Akbari also notes some of them. Like the games of -> 'Aankh Micholi' , 'Ishq-Baazi', game of 'kabootars', 'Chaupar' , 'Pachisi' , etc.😉




**********************************************************************************************************


Finally, i end on a NOTE what KDR81 has written.
Visit Amer(East Jaipur) and Agra. For all your questions, You will get your answerS .!.


BTW, i have also loaded some of the references from 16th-17th centuries, which MANY may be READING for the FIRST TIME TODAY...😆...

Hope this clears.😊


P.S. --> This MAY help those members who feel that JA is a recent development.😊 As, references from 16th century are present here..!...


Direct Link of this post if anyone wants to share anywhere..!...😊
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/102529362


Edited by history_geek - 11 years ago
AntaresVega thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Another thing I don't appreciate about Ruqayya is her ingratitude. She's is ungrateful to everyone not just Jodha.
Jodha went out of her way to save their marriage and Ruq thinks that the matter is sealed with a diamond gift. She doesn't even hesitate or object to Maham's letter MU. If she was truly Jalal's friend, she'd have freed him of his anguish by at least trying to explain that it might not have been Jo's fault, if not trying to out Maham. She even fanned Jo's displeasure during Ben track. Such shallow thinking!

She doesn't respect others and has an EGO the size of Mars, hence the ungrateful nature. You can't hold Jalal responsible for this. You can only blame Ruqayya herself because she chose to be that way. She chose to be mean and ungrateful, despite fully knowing what discomfort it causes to the other person. Why should Jalal make her sit down and explain things? Hasn't he been doing just that all these years? How much longer can he bear her baseless tantrums, that too if they are against Jodha? She'll be a goner for sure if she doesn't mend her ways and behave in way suited to a queen.
AntaresVega thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: history_geek





Sandhya,


**********************************************************************************************************


For your points in blue:

KDR81 has written "enough" comments.
Just one info, before Ashutosh's movie ALSO they were remembered, provided we thought of them.😊


I am giving just some PROOF to you, of her existence.
Go through these old books. All mention her.

Yes, these are called CHRONICLES..!..which are not easily accessible.
Even i have not read all of them.


1. Khalsat-i-Tawarikh, written somewhere 1597-1607. in Persian

2. Khyat of Rajasthan, around 1660's.

3. One book of history written in the court of King/ruler of Gujarat in 1601-12 . This book says Akbar's favorite wife was mother of Salim. 😆 (I am writing only for you.)
Just think, the time was 16th century, still EVEN in Gujarat people know about Akbar and MUZ😲 and mention them.DO you need a more BIG proof..??...They were VERY FAMOUS in their times if you SEARCH THE DUST of chronicles..!...

4. The FAMOUS memoirs of Colonel Tod of 19th century.(Though he used Jodha's name there.)


Sorry, these books are not published commercially.
The only point i am telling you is ONE NEEDS TO SEARCH TOO HARD.
They were very much present before Ashutosh's movie.
They are NOT Ekta's or Ashutosh's RE-creation.

(I have more references FROM CONTEMPORARY sources . But i feel these are enough..!..)

And, hence i/KDR81/Lizzy refuse to accept this clause about JA.😊
How can one deny this WITHOUT reading anything..???..😊

BTW, Even Salima Begum is NOT mentioned in these books, as MUZ is mentioned..!..



**********************************************************************************************************


For your points in red

If i get any LOVE STORY of Akbar and Salima, then i will definitely share it.😲😕

I or KDR81/Lizzy or any one i have come across DID NOT tell me this.
This is the FIRST DOUBT of this type i am reading today .


Just for info:
JA story does NOT require proofs.. Shah Jahan needed Taj Mahal for that. Not Akbar. 😊.
He got enough palaces for her..!..

Still FYI..Comparison between Salima and MUZ.. (though i don't like it.!.😊)

1. Akbar got palaces for MUZ EVERYWHERE not Salima.
2. Akbar took MUZ to dargahs MOST OF ALL times not Salima.
3. Akbar had MUZ's palaces near his palace not Salima's.
4. Akbar had a corridor connecting his Khwabgah to MUZ's palace('s') not Salima's.
5. Akbar took MUZ with him even while proceeding on a war, not Salima. (Wait for this in show.)


I don't feel i need to write more about the differences.
Respect + Understanding and Affection are different feelings.


Also, as you mentioned regarding religious policy of Akbar. Here also MUZ's name is VERY MUCH present. Though proof is not required Still, i give one:


The Oxford Encyclopedia Of Women in World History, Vol-4, Page-656, notes the name of Hk/Jodha/MUZ as an influential wife in Akbar's life, who exemplified his religious tolerance and also in shaping many POLICIES in the Mughal Empire.😊

I do not need this reference. But i am giving you, as you focus on "PROOFS".😊



He was a man of multiple tastes. He was NOT just a administrator. But more then that..!..

Also, when you will go to FS, you can very much see the pavillions there, which he got constructed there, for leisure purposes.

Ain-i-Akbari also notes some of them. Like the games of -> 'Aankh Micholi' , 'Ishq-Baazi', game of 'kabootars', 'Chaupar' , 'Pachisi' , etc.😉




**********************************************************************************************************


Finally, i end on a NOTE what KDR81 has written.
Visit Amer(East Jaipur) and Agra. For all your questions, You will get your answerS .!.


BTW, i have also loaded some of the references from 16th-17th centuries, which MANY may be READING for the FIRST TIME TODAY...😆...

Hope this clears.😊


P.S. --> This MAY help those members who feel that JA is a recent development.😊 As, references from 16th century are present here..!...


You're P.S is very very APT!

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