Akbar-Ruqs-False Monogamy.Pt2JA Not fiction.Upd-p10,16,18,Ruqs34+35+36 - Page 31

Originally posted by: history_geek

Najma,
Ruqayya Begum was daughter of Hindal Mirza, who was paternal uncle of Akbar, and brother of Humayun. And, they can marry, as far as i know, in their religion.

BTW, Akbar banned 'SUCH' marriages between cousins, and HE HAS ALSO given a REASON for this BAN. You can see the FIRST comment on Page-1, of this thread, about the BAN and the REASON. Link: Click here.

For more on this topic, you may use PM mode.
:)

Originally posted by: roshanehkhan

@abhay thanks truly speaking i'm still confuse with ''after a time had recovered ''but its ok as you said no pshycological matter involved
can you plz give some info about Begam Bibi Daulat-Shad
she bore 2 daughters to akbar mentioned in jahangirnama

another favor can you plz post the farsi text image in which volume ,chapter or page number of Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh by Badayuni akbar said '' had i been wise earlier, i would have taken no women from my own kingdom in my harem because my subjects are to me in the place of my children''
thanks :)

B.



^^^^^^^^ The 2 lines quoted above, i also mentioned in my thread. Though my words are somewhat different as i got it translated from the Persian source. I wrote the following:
"
Either do not befriend an elephant .
or make a house fit for an elephant.
"

Though the meaning is same.


**********************************

The words in "double quotes" BELOW are the points that should be focused upon.


C.

Originally posted by: history_geek

Hi,

You're Welcome. 😊

1.
About Man Bai, as i said before there WAS NO "psycological matter" involved. The meaning of these words is something else.

I mentioned that this was related to the "PRACTICE OF RAJVANSHIS TO STAND BY THEIR WORDS", and giving up their lives if the vow was not fulfilled, as for them their WORD was above ANYTHING, even their LIVES.

Jahangir notes the following about Man Bai. -->>

" She was at times disturbed, for such feelings were hereditary, and her ancestors and her brothers had occasionally showed signs of madness, but after a time had recovered. "

^^^^^^^^
This is about the conduct of Khusrau towards his father Salim, as he had revolted against Salim. Man Bai tried to make Khusrau return to his father respectfully, and wrote to him to do so. When she saw that, this was not possible, she held herself responsible, and poisoned herself.

[ ^^^^^ --- This is the reason which Jahangir writes in his autobiography. ]


The exact words from his autobiography describing Man Bai, are -->

"His mother, while I was a prince, in grief at his ways and behavior and the misconduct of her brother Madho Singh, killed herself by swallowing opium. What shall I write of her excellences and goodness? She had perfect intelligence, and her devotion to me was such that she would have sacrificed a thousand sonsand brothers for one hair of mine, She constantly wrote to Khusrau and urged him to be sincere and affectionate to me. When she saw that, it was of no use and that it was unknown how far he would be led away, she from the indignation, and high spirit which are inherent in the Rajput character determined upon death, Her mind was several times disturbed, for such feelings wore hereditary, and her ancestors and her brothers had occasionally showed signs of madness, but after a time had recovered. At a time when I had gone hunting, on Zi-l-Hijja 26th, 1013 (May 6th, 1605), she in her agitation swallowed a quantity of opium, and quickly passed away. It was as if she had foreseen this behaviour of her unworthy son.

My first marriage and that at the commencement of my adolescence was with her. After Khusrau's birth I gave her the title of Shah Begam. When she could not endure the bad conduct of her son and her brother towards me, she became disgusted with life and died, thereby escaping the present grief and sorrow. In the consequence of her death, from the attachment I had for her, I passed some days without any kind of pleasure in life or existence, and for four days, which amount to 32 watches, I took nothing in the shape or food or drink. When this tale was told to my revered father, a letter of condolence of excessive kindness and affection reached this devoted disciple, and he sont me a robe of honour and the auspicious turban tied just as he had taken it off his head. This favour threw water on the flame of my grief and afforded complete quiet and repose to my unquietude and disturbance.


^^^^ These were Jahangir's words, expressing his Love and Attachment to Man Bai and Man Bai's reciprocation and deep devotion to HIM, written in his autobiography, Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri, on Page-55 and 56.

Let me mention that Why Jahangir mention her brothers or ancestors, in this madness.
Bhagwan Das also tried giving up his life. This is mentioned by:

1. Abul Fazl in Akbarnama, Volume-3, Pg-491/492.
2. Badayuni also mentions this in Muntakhab, Volume-2, Pg-352 'onwards'.
3. Many other contemporary accounts

Abu'l Fazl calls this incident as Bhagwan Das's madness. What happened was that, Akbar had sent Bhagwan Das to capture Kashmir along with Mirza Suleiman and M.Qasim, among others. Despite heavy odds in the hills and slopes of Kashmir, Bhagwan Das wrecked havoc on the enemy. Finally, Yusuf Khan of Kashmir begged for peace/mercy and stopping of hostilities, and not to damage this beautiful place by warfare, and accepted Akbar's overlordship and agreed to some conditions like coins struck in Akbar's name, handing over of Kashmir's trade in saffron, silk, and other products, etc. to Mughals. He expressed his desire to visit Akbar's court. Moved by this conduct, Bhagwan Das agreed, and made a treaty with Yusuf Khan. When brought to the court, Yusuf Khan was detained, and Bhagwan Das was asked by Akbar to continue the siege and capture Srinagar as well. Badayuni adds, Akbar wanted to eliminate Yusuf.!!!!!!. This was a violation of the treaty which B.Das signed with Yusuf. Later Bhagwan Das's condition deteriorated and he stabbed himself. Akbar was much moved by this and he sent 2 of his best physicians - Hasan and Mahadev, along with Khangar and Daulat Khan, to save Bhagwan Das. This act of Bhagwan Das of stabbing himself is called madness.🤢😕 Muntakhab mentions, this was done by B.Das to save his sense of honor, as the safe conduct which he had given to Yusuf and the treaty via which he brought Yusuf to Akbar, was violated.


Hope it's understood, what Jahangir means by madness. I wish you had read that entire page about Man Bai, and connected this with Badayuni and Abu'l Fazl's writings. Then, you would have understood this.😊 There WAS NO "psycological matter" involved. Man Bai was, VERY MUCH A SANE LADY. Abu'l Fazl mentions about her Fine GENETIC Pool, she brought with her and Akbar's act on her death, as written by Jahangir also speaks volumes about her persona.

There was NO MADNESS involved. It was just about the HIGH IDEALS and Inherent Spirit of High Character in the Amer Clan especially wrt. Bhagwan Das and Man Bai, and their ancestors.

BTW, I Hope we can understand "NOW" , the importance of "Vachans" for Rajvanshis
(Amer Clan in present context as per the accounts ).😊
These were JUST 2 LIVE DEMONSTRATIONS from REAL HISTORY of Akbar's time.😉

2.
Daulat Shad was a resident of the harem.
Infact, there is NO worth, discussing her here. She was taken into the harem for DIPLOMATIC REASONS, as her husband Abul Wasi (a Delhi noble), was creating trouble for Akbar and supported Sharifuddin in his revolt (read proxy war), and weakening Akbar's authority there. This Daulat Shad incident served as warning and reminder to Abul Wasi, with regards to his loyalty to the Emperor. Abul Wasi was close to Sharifuddin and this Daulat Shad was his COUSIN. 😉Hope, you got the info about Daulat Shad (and the reasons as well).😉 Akbar did so to CONTROL Sharifuddin and Abul Wasi.

[ This info was from HARD DIGGING FROM MULTIPLE sources(based on reading of KDR81 and Lizzy2012 also), not only what one or two sources say. ]

There is NOTHING more to write about her. About the kids, my new thread will come soon. There all the queries will be sorted about the children. 😃




3.

I (and others who contribute) are researching for our OWN urge to know more about Akbar. I do NOT keep pictures of all the accounts i study. These lines which i wrote about Akbar --> " Had i been wise earlier, i would have taken no women from my own kingdom in my harem because my subjects are to me in the place of my children". <--- are very famous, and they are a part of Akbar's reform, to propagate monogamy. I did NOT click the picture of the Persian text. (Why would i do so.?. One should visit the libraries themselves and dig the dust of chronicles if pictures of texts are ALSO to be taken. 😕 ) These lines are written by Badayuni. Read his accounts, and you will get these lines 'somewhere'. 😊

I can give you the snapshots of a widely read book on Akbar. The author has quoted Badayuni. You can VERIFY my info, from him.

If anyone wants to know the REASON of propagating MONOGAMY .
Here is the reason which 'TELLS A LOT' . Link: Click here

****************************************

This is from Emperors of Peacock Throne, by Abraham Eraly. Page-170,171.

A.

**********************************

B.



^^^^^^^^ The 2 lines quoted above, i also mentioned in my thread. Though my words are somewhat different as i got it translated from the Persian source. I wrote the following:
"
Either do not befriend an elephant .
or make a house fit for an elephant.
"

Though the meaning is same.


**********************************

The words in "double quotes" BELOW are the points that should be focused upon.


C.

****************************************

Whatever i (and other researchers) have posted here, has been done after taking all possible sources in mind. And, have given the references wherever possible. This thread is ONLY to share some research. And, i do NOT feel any need to provide LINE BY LINE citation of every sentence. We do it as MUCH AS POSSIBLE. After that, it is also the responsibility of the readers to read and dig more THEMSELVES. 😊
BTW, Read Jahangirnama with a pinch of Salt. Try to cross verify it with other sources also.😉

I Hope it's clear. :)

Originally posted by: history_geek

Hi,

You're Welcome. 😊

1.
About Man Bai, as i said before there WAS NO "psycological matter" involved. The meaning of these words is something else.

I mentioned that this was related to the "PRACTICE OF RAJVANSHIS TO STAND BY THEIR WORDS", and giving up their lives if the vow was not fulfilled, as for them their WORD was above ANYTHING, even their LIVES.

Jahangir notes the following about Man Bai. -->>

" She was at times disturbed, for such feelings were hereditary, and her ancestors and her brothers had occasionally showed signs of madness, but after a time had recovered. "

^^^^^^^^
This is about the conduct of Khusrau towards his father Salim, as he had revolted against Salim. Man Bai tried to make Khusrau return to his father respectfully, and wrote to him to do so. When she saw that, this was not possible, she held herself responsible, and poisoned herself.

[ ^^^^^ --- This is the reason which Jahangir writes in his autobiography. ]


The exact words from his autobiography describing Man Bai, are -->

"His mother, while I was a prince, in grief at his ways and behavior and the misconduct of her brother Madho Singh, killed herself by swallowing opium. What shall I write of her excellences and goodness? She had perfect intelligence, and her devotion to me was such that she would have sacrificed a thousand sonsand brothers for one hair of mine, She constantly wrote to Khusrau and urged him to be sincere and affectionate to me. When she saw that, it was of no use and that it was unknown how far he would be led away, she from the indignation, and high spirit which are inherent in the Rajput character determined upon death, Her mind was several times disturbed, for such feelings wore hereditary, and her ancestors and her brothers had occasionally showed signs of madness, but after a time had recovered. At a time when I had gone hunting, on Zi-l-Hijja 26th, 1013 (May 6th, 1605), she in her agitation swallowed a quantity of opium, and quickly passed away. It was as if she had foreseen this behaviour of her unworthy son.

My first marriage and that at the commencement of my adolescence was with her. After Khusrau's birth I gave her the title of Shah Begam. When she could not endure the bad conduct of her son and her brother towards me, she became disgusted with life and died, thereby escaping the present grief and sorrow. In the consequence of her death, from the attachment I had for her, I passed some days without any kind of pleasure in life or existence, and for four days, which amount to 32 watches, I took nothing in the shape or food or drink. When this tale was told to my revered father, a letter of condolence of excessive kindness and affection reached this devoted disciple, and he sont me a robe of honour and the auspicious turban tied just as he had taken it off his head. This favour threw water on the flame of my grief and afforded complete quiet and repose to my unquietude and disturbance.


^^^^ These were Jahangir's words, expressing his Love and Attachment to Man Bai and Man Bai's reciprocation and deep devotion to HIM, written in his autobiography, Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri, on Page-55 and 56.

Let me mention that Why Jahangir mention her brothers or ancestors, in this madness.
Bhagwan Das also tried giving up his life. This is mentioned by:

1. Abul Fazl in Akbarnama, Volume-3, Pg-491/492.
2. Badayuni also mentions this in Muntakhab, Volume-2, Pg-352 'onwards'.
3. Many other contemporary accounts

Abu'l Fazl calls this incident as Bhagwan Das's madness. What happened was that, Akbar had sent Bhagwan Das to capture Kashmir along with Mirza Suleiman and M.Qasim, among others. Despite heavy odds in the hills and slopes of Kashmir, Bhagwan Das wrecked havoc on the enemy. Finally, Yusuf Khan of Kashmir begged for peace/mercy and stopping of hostilities, and not to damage this beautiful place by warfare, and accepted Akbar's overlordship and agreed to some conditions like coins struck in Akbar's name, handing over of Kashmir's trade in saffron, silk, and other products, etc. to Mughals. He expressed his desire to visit Akbar's court. Moved by this conduct, Bhagwan Das agreed, and made a treaty with Yusuf Khan. When brought to the court, Yusuf Khan was detained, and Bhagwan Das was asked by Akbar to continue the siege and capture Srinagar as well. Badayuni adds, Akbar wanted to eliminate Yusuf.!!!!!!. This was a violation of the treaty which B.Das signed with Yusuf. Later Bhagwan Das's condition deteriorated and he stabbed himself. Akbar was much moved by this and he sent 2 of his best physicians - Hasan and Mahadev, along with Khangar and Daulat Khan, to save Bhagwan Das. This act of Bhagwan Das of stabbing himself is called madness.🤢😕 Muntakhab mentions, this was done by B.Das to save his sense of honor, as the safe conduct which he had given to Yusuf and the treaty via which he brought Yusuf to Akbar, was violated.


Hope it's understood, what Jahangir means by madness. I wish you had read that entire page about Man Bai, and connected this with Badayuni and Abu'l Fazl's writings. Then, you would have understood this.😊 There WAS NO "psycological matter" involved. Man Bai was, VERY MUCH A SANE LADY. Abu'l Fazl mentions about her Fine GENETIC Pool, she brought with her and Akbar's act on her death, as written by Jahangir also speaks volumes about her persona.

There was NO MADNESS involved. It was just about the HIGH IDEALS and Inherent Spirit of High Character in the Amer Clan especially wrt. Bhagwan Das and Man Bai, and their ancestors.

BTW, I Hope we can understand "NOW" , the importance of "Vachans" for Rajvanshis
(Amer Clan in present context as per the accounts ).😊
These were JUST 2 LIVE DEMONSTRATIONS from REAL HISTORY of Akbar's time.😉

2.
Daulat Shad was a resident of the harem.
Infact, there is NO worth, discussing her here. She was taken into the harem for DIPLOMATIC REASONS, as her husband Abul Wasi (a Delhi noble), was creating trouble for Akbar and supported Sharifuddin in his revolt (read proxy war), and weakening Akbar's authority there. This Daulat Shad incident served as warning and reminder to Abul Wasi, with regards to his loyalty to the Emperor. Abul Wasi was close to Sharifuddin and this Daulat Shad was his COUSIN. 😉Hope, you got the info about Daulat Shad (and the reasons as well).😉 Akbar did so to CONTROL Sharifuddin and Abul Wasi.

[ This info was from HARD DIGGING FROM MULTIPLE sources(based on reading of KDR81 and Lizzy2012 also), not only what one or two sources say. ]

There is NOTHING more to write about her. About the kids, my new thread will come soon. There all the queries will be sorted about the children. 😃




3.

I (and others who contribute) are researching for our OWN urge to know more about Akbar. I do NOT keep pictures of all the accounts i study. These lines which i wrote about Akbar --> " Had i been wise earlier, i would have taken no women from my own kingdom in my harem because my subjects are to me in the place of my children". <--- are very famous, and they are a part of Akbar's reform, to propagate monogamy. I did NOT click the picture of the Persian text. (Why would i do so.?. One should visit the libraries themselves and dig the dust of chronicles if pictures of texts are ALSO to be taken. 😕 ) These lines are written by Badayuni. Read his accounts, and you will get these lines 'somewhere'. 😊

I can give you the snapshots of a widely read book on Akbar. The author has quoted Badayuni. You can VERIFY my info, from him.

If anyone wants to know the REASON of propagating MONOGAMY .
Here is the reason which 'TELLS A LOT' . Link: Click here

****************************************

This is from Emperors of Peacock Throne, by Abraham Eraly. Page-170,171.

A.

**********************************

B.



^^^^^^^^ The 2 lines quoted above, i also mentioned in my thread. Though my words are somewhat different as i got it translated from the Persian source. I wrote the following:
"
Either do not befriend an elephant .
or make a house fit for an elephant.
"

Though the meaning is same.


**********************************

The words in "double quotes" BELOW are the points that should be focused upon.


C.

****************************************

Whatever i (and other researchers) have posted here, has been done after taking all possible sources in mind. And, have given the references wherever possible. This thread is ONLY to share some research. And, i do NOT feel any need to provide LINE BY LINE citation of every sentence. We do it as MUCH AS POSSIBLE. After that, it is also the responsibility of the readers to read and dig more THEMSELVES. 😊
BTW, Read Jahangirnama with a pinch of Salt. Try to cross verify it with other sources also.😉

I Hope it's clear. :)

Originally posted by: history_geek

Hi,

You're Welcome. 😊

1.
About Man Bai, as i said before there WAS NO "psycological matter" involved. The meaning of these words is something else.

I mentioned that this was related to the "PRACTICE OF RAJVANSHIS TO STAND BY THEIR WORDS", and giving up their lives if the vow was not fulfilled, as for them their WORD was above ANYTHING, even their LIVES.

Jahangir notes the following about Man Bai. -->>

" She was at times disturbed, for such feelings were hereditary, and her ancestors and her brothers had occasionally showed signs of madness, but after a time had recovered. "

^^^^^^^^
This is about the conduct of Khusrau towards his father Salim, as he had revolted against Salim. Man Bai tried to make Khusrau return to his father respectfully, and wrote to him to do so. When she saw that, this was not possible, she held herself responsible, and poisoned herself.

[ ^^^^^ --- This is the reason which Jahangir writes in his autobiography. ]


The exact words from his autobiography describing Man Bai, are -->

"His mother, while I was a prince, in grief at his ways and behavior and the misconduct of her brother Madho Singh, killed herself by swallowing opium. What shall I write of her excellences and goodness? She had perfect intelligence, and her devotion to me was such that she would have sacrificed a thousand sonsand brothers for one hair of mine, She constantly wrote to Khusrau and urged him to be sincere and affectionate to me. When she saw that, it was of no use and that it was unknown how far he would be led away, she from the indignation, and high spirit which are inherent in the Rajput character determined upon death, Her mind was several times disturbed, for such feelings wore hereditary, and her ancestors and her brothers had occasionally showed signs of madness, but after a time had recovered. At a time when I had gone hunting, on Zi-l-Hijja 26th, 1013 (May 6th, 1605), she in her agitation swallowed a quantity of opium, and quickly passed away. It was as if she had foreseen this behaviour of her unworthy son.

My first marriage and that at the commencement of my adolescence was with her. After Khusrau's birth I gave her the title of Shah Begam. When she could not endure the bad conduct of her son and her brother towards me, she became disgusted with life and died, thereby escaping the present grief and sorrow. In the consequence of her death, from the attachment I had for her, I passed some days without any kind of pleasure in life or existence, and for four days, which amount to 32 watches, I took nothing in the shape or food or drink. When this tale was told to my revered father, a letter of condolence of excessive kindness and affection reached this devoted disciple, and he sont me a robe of honour and the auspicious turban tied just as he had taken it off his head. This favour threw water on the flame of my grief and afforded complete quiet and repose to my unquietude and disturbance.


^^^^ These were Jahangir's words, expressing his Love and Attachment to Man Bai and Man Bai's reciprocation and deep devotion to HIM, written in his autobiography, Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri, on Page-55 and 56.

Let me mention that Why Jahangir mention her brothers or ancestors, in this madness.
Bhagwan Das also tried giving up his life. This is mentioned by:

1. Abul Fazl in Akbarnama, Volume-3, Pg-491/492.
2. Badayuni also mentions this in Muntakhab, Volume-2, Pg-352 'onwards'.
3. Many other contemporary accounts

Abu'l Fazl calls this incident as Bhagwan Das's madness. What happened was that, Akbar had sent Bhagwan Das to capture Kashmir along with Mirza Suleiman and M.Qasim, among others. Despite heavy odds in the hills and slopes of Kashmir, Bhagwan Das wrecked havoc on the enemy. Finally, Yusuf Khan of Kashmir begged for peace/mercy and stopping of hostilities, and not to damage this beautiful place by warfare, and accepted Akbar's overlordship and agreed to some conditions like coins struck in Akbar's name, handing over of Kashmir's trade in saffron, silk, and other products, etc. to Mughals. He expressed his desire to visit Akbar's court. Moved by this conduct, Bhagwan Das agreed, and made a treaty with Yusuf Khan. When brought to the court, Yusuf Khan was detained, and Bhagwan Das was asked by Akbar to continue the siege and capture Srinagar as well. Badayuni adds, Akbar wanted to eliminate Yusuf.!!!!!!. This was a violation of the treaty which B.Das signed with Yusuf. Later Bhagwan Das's condition deteriorated and he stabbed himself. Akbar was much moved by this and he sent 2 of his best physicians - Hasan and Mahadev, along with Khangar and Daulat Khan, to save Bhagwan Das. This act of Bhagwan Das of stabbing himself is called madness.🤢😕 Muntakhab mentions, this was done by B.Das to save his sense of honor, as the safe conduct which he had given to Yusuf and the treaty via which he brought Yusuf to Akbar, was violated.


Hope it's understood, what Jahangir means by madness. I wish you had read that entire page about Man Bai, and connected this with Badayuni and Abu'l Fazl's writings. Then, you would have understood this.😊 There WAS NO "psycological matter" involved. Man Bai was, VERY MUCH A SANE LADY. Abu'l Fazl mentions about her Fine GENETIC Pool, she brought with her and Akbar's act on her death, as written by Jahangir also speaks volumes about her persona.

There was NO MADNESS involved. It was just about the HIGH IDEALS and Inherent Spirit of High Character in the Amer Clan especially wrt. Bhagwan Das and Man Bai, and their ancestors.

BTW, I Hope we can understand "NOW" , the importance of "Vachans" for Rajvanshis
(Amer Clan in present context as per the accounts ).😊
These were JUST 2 LIVE DEMONSTRATIONS from REAL HISTORY of Akbar's time.😉

2.
Daulat Shad was a resident of the harem.
Infact, there is NO worth, discussing her here. She was taken into the harem for DIPLOMATIC REASONS, as her husband Abul Wasi (a Delhi noble), was creating trouble for Akbar and supported Sharifuddin in his revolt (read proxy war), and weakening Akbar's authority there. This Daulat Shad incident served as warning and reminder to Abul Wasi, with regards to his loyalty to the Emperor. Abul Wasi was close to Sharifuddin and this Daulat Shad was his COUSIN. 😉Hope, you got the info about Daulat Shad (and the reasons as well).😉 Akbar did so to CONTROL Sharifuddin and Abul Wasi.

[ This info was from HARD DIGGING FROM MULTIPLE sources(based on reading of KDR81 and Lizzy2012 also), not only what one or two sources say. ]

There is NOTHING more to write about her. About the kids, my new thread will come soon. There all the queries will be sorted about the children. 😃




3.

I (and others who contribute) are researching for our OWN urge to know more about Akbar. I do NOT keep pictures of all the accounts i study. These lines which i wrote about Akbar --> " Had i been wise earlier, i would have taken no women from my own kingdom in my harem because my subjects are to me in the place of my children". <--- are very famous, and they are a part of Akbar's reform, to propagate monogamy. I did NOT click the picture of the Persian text. (Why would i do so.?. One should visit the libraries themselves and dig the dust of chronicles if pictures of texts are ALSO to be taken. 😕 ) These lines are written by Badayuni. Read his accounts, and you will get these lines 'somewhere'. 😊

I can give you the snapshots of a widely read book on Akbar. The author has quoted Badayuni. You can VERIFY my info, from him.

If anyone wants to know the REASON of propagating MONOGAMY .
Here is the reason which 'TELLS A LOT' . Link: Click here

****************************************

This is from Emperors of Peacock Throne, by Abraham Eraly. Page-170,171.

A.

**********************************

B.



^^^^^^^^ The 2 lines quoted above, i also mentioned in my thread. Though my words are somewhat different as i got it translated from the Persian source. I wrote the following:
"
Either do not befriend an elephant .
or make a house fit for an elephant.
"

Though the meaning is same.


**********************************

The words in "double quotes" BELOW are the points that should be focused upon.


C.

****************************************

Whatever i (and other researchers) have posted here, has been done after taking all possible sources in mind. And, have given the references wherever possible. This thread is ONLY to share some research. And, i do NOT feel any need to provide LINE BY LINE citation of every sentence. We do it as MUCH AS POSSIBLE. After that, it is also the responsibility of the readers to read and dig more THEMSELVES. 😊
BTW, Read Jahangirnama with a pinch of Salt. Try to cross verify it with other sources also.😉

I Hope it's clear. :)

Originally posted by: Cleo12345

I see that this ' vachan' thing is a never ending debate...And I understand that it does sound a little stupid to our 21^st century brain...Pran jaye par vachan na jaye? For God sake, what can be more important than one's life? But since this actually happened in those days... I try to understand it by first accepting that we are talking about a warrior clan here... If we look at world history... battle skills, mastery of warfare tactics and importance of codes, etiquettes and reputation were important common factors amongst almost all warrior clans around the world...be it Spartans, Samurais, Jaguars or Koas...Training was tough and acted as a process of natural selection...Most believed that their psychological attitude and discipline was important to make them a force to be reckoned with... Children from these clans were trained to be skilled fighters who followed the codes of conduct to a T... Rajputs/Rajvanshis were no different...they were strict about the following the Kshatriya code of conduct. This may be difficult for us to understand in 21^st century but ' no peeth ke peche waar' and ' keep your vachan at all costs' concepts were deeply ingrained in that society...Why? Practical reasons... Because... they were primarily warriors... in order to win a battle, it was important to be able to trust your fellow soldier standing right behind you with a sword...this was about survival...how could they be fierce fighters for the enemy if they had to keep watching their back...therefore, Peeth ke peeche war and breaking a vachan were treated as a crime( and a sin)...the people who committed this crime faced humiliation or punishment...If you look at other worrier clans from history, you will see the same discipline and an obsessiveness about following the ethical and moral codes of conduct in those societies as well...I love watching a show on history channel which describes the battle strategies in BC...it describes the battle of Thermophyle very well and how the shields were designed to not only save a Spartan solider but also the person standing behind him during the formation of phalanx...This shows their trust in each other and their devotion for each other's life...no wonder they were able to hold the mighty Persian army for such a long time...This was a suicide mission and before dying King Leonidas asked his remaining soldiers to leave...but they did not...they fought till their last breath...difficult for our 21^st century brain to fathom...but this is how they were raised...their principles were important to them... This is about training (genetics too after generations of natural selection)...just like a ship or airplane captain is trained to be the last person to leave if the ship or airplane goes down...or a physician is trained to stay calm while dealing with an emergency...or a soldier is trained to fight and not flee when faced with enemy gunfire...not all, but enough even in the 21^st century, follow this. We are sometimes unable to understand people who leave their cozy lifestyle and go to remote or dangerous places in the world to help the natives eg Syria or certain parts of Africa...I personally know a few friends who leave their mansions and Ferraris and spent months in these countries...Why do they do it?... Because of what they learnt in their Church while growing up ( and not all of them go there to convert people...trust me...and even for those who do it for that reason...think of it, there is something is more important to them than their own life) ...So the need to honor a vachan is something that may be difficult for us to understand...but it was just one of those things..people in those societies did not see things the way we see them centuries later...if we can accept that practices like polygamy, child marriage and Juahar existed in those days, why give the poor vachan such a hard time?

Going back to your post... Madness...NO...overwhelming guilt of being unable to prevent an act that is against their ethical and moral codes of conduct...YES

Originally posted by: MaddyO

Wonderful post. I found it fascinating reading about clans not known to me. I had read bit about Spartans.

Rajvanshis were raised to be fighters and those were the times of constant wars and the practice like Jauhar was a necessity of those times to maintain dignity. Can we even imagine the idea of jumping into fire so the enemy does not even get the dead body!

About giving up life for the country, our brave officers and soldiers did just that in the Kargil war. They fought in sub zero temperatures and in the fiercest of conditions. Some missions to capture those peaks had just barely double digit chances of success. They knew beforehand chances of coming back were almost slim. The ratio of officers to soldiers who sacrificed their lives in Kargil war is very high.

So the tradition of not caring about life but doing the duty and love for country is followed by our brave armed forces even now. Salute to them.

Originally posted by: ayushimehra

Interesting, i read today, Abhay, Mota, Raga Udai singh, or M P father udai singh, Same.

but if same or not, but i want to ask, which Type of realtion, Udai singh & Akbar, (MP father )