Dharmakshetra :) - Page 74

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...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: amritat


If Caste was such sa big deal then n Karna was certainly a learned man(trained by none other than Parshuram)...was he not aware of the concepts of Anuloma n Pratiloma marriages?
I am not very learned myself about this whole concept...but it really confuses me...y did Karna participate in the first place? Especially, after the Rangbhoomi debacle, he must have realized the evil impact of it...


few pages back, someone said Sutas of a family who get married to Kshatriya princesses for 7 generations will become Kshartiyas.. so Suta-Kashtrani marriages are fine I guess ofcourse if the princess is fine with it..



Also, Sukracharya had to grant a 'boon' that sons of Devyani-Yayati will Kshatriyas instead of Suta clan.. so it is seriously sad to see people claiming that Karna did not miss anything in life due to abandonment, Suta being a sub-class of Kshatriyas..
Sanskruthi thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
^^ Diamaa I too remember reading this 7 generations thing on Thumblr blog! Bt the writer doesnt give ny reference!😳
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
neither am I sure about it.. but I guess it is from manu.. remember reading similar lines from MB D&D thread..


I still remember how noisy it was saying Sutas are no less, Sutas are more or less Kshatriyas blah blah blah.. but almost went like 'how dare you' when I asked if Krishna and all Yadus were Sutas šŸ˜†
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
@amrita - strcitly going by CE, Karna participating in Swayamvara is an interpolation, I think. I think he had already married twice & had 5-6 children before swayamvara, & his second wife was probably his own choice, a woman he loved. Also Suta men were allowed to marry only twice. Forgot where I read that. So it is unlikely that Karna wanted to marry again, IMHO.
Karna's age (32) was according to my calculation. Acc to that Yudhi was 27 then. Only southern recensions count precise age of these men & that age cannot explain many things. So better we do own calculations bases on cultural backgrounds of those times.
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: Urmila11



He took his vow of charity just after Duri's Vaishnava sacrifice while Pandavas were in exile, that's too to kill Arjun in war. His words were like this (from KMG):

Then spake Karna unto him, saying, 'Hear me, O elephant among kings! So long as I do not slay Arjuna, I shall not allow any one to wash my feet, nor shall I taste meat. And I shall observe the Asura vow and whoever may solicit me (for any thing), I never shall say, 'I have it not.'

So vow of charity was associated with selfish intention of killing an enemy. His words clearly shows me that if he could kill Arjun then he would have left his charity after that. Geeta clearly says this daan is tamasik daan, not satvik. Yaksha prashna's answer too speaks the same. So this 'daan' cannot be respected IMHO.


CE translated by Bibek debroy differes on this.In that Karna only vows not to wash his feet till he kills Arjuna nothing else.So there isnt consistency in this .

Now regarding whether karna should be respected for giving his KK and asking for Indra's shakti in return or not or it should be considered as an exchange or daan.I would say to each their own.But we must keep all conversations in mind and not only those that suit our POV

1)Kavach kundal harna parva begins with conversation between Surya dev and Karna in which karna consistently says that he will give away his KK no matter what and Surya dev continues to ask him not to give it away

2)Their conversation ends with surya dev saying that if is so particular then he should ask for Indra's shakti in retunr to which karn agrees

3)Then when Indra comes karna already knows his purpose and only agrees to give away KK if Indra gives his shakti

4)Karna got Indra's shakti in return as a one time use thing only that to when he had exhausted his other weapons .Personally this cnat be comapred to how KK would have helped him during the war,Though i dont think KK made him invincible but it was definately more advantageous to have than a shakti which comes with many terms and conditions

Now these are the facts how one views them is upto each individual person.But i consider this as one of the hounourable acts of karna in which he stood by his words in dire times.For me it speaks about his strong character.


Edited by Sabhayata - 10 years ago
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: .Sanskruti

Drupad does reveal his intention of Drau's marriage with Ju na, if he wanted his daughter to get married to him y didn't he give a straight away marriage proposal to Ps y the planning of SwayamvaršŸ˜•


It is because when he organized the Swayamvar, or better, when Draupadi was born, the Pandavas were missing. Everyone thought they were dead in the Lakshagriha fire. But Drupad believed they were alive, and so he organized such a contest which only Arjun could pass.
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Posted: 10 years ago
Its strange how everything becomes interpolation when one cannot find a suitable explanation for it. We should remember that is a time and age we are not so learned about. Many things which we cannot imagine and what we think is impossible was possible back then.
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
@Sabhayata - please tell me the chapter number of Asura Vrata taken by Karna, in CE. I just want to read original sloka & confirm one thing. Also, in the Roy translation of CE, did Karna say he will not wash his feet or he will not let anyone wash his feet? There is a big difference in the effects of these two & it is an often misunderstood, unseen side of Karna.
AnuMP thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
@adishakthi
šŸ˜† I have been asking that very Q about Krishna's sons for the last 4 or 5 months. Its actually worse than your calculation. Prads was a grown man at the time of Swayamvar. Since Abhi at 16 was considered old enough to be married, lets assign him the lowest possible age of 16. IIRC, he was supposed to have been born after a 12 year penance in the Himalayas. That makes it a total of 28. I think Krishna and Arjun were supposed to be at the oldest 30 by the time of SV. So, Krishna would have had to abduct Rukmini at the age of 2šŸ˜†.

Not only that Shishu was born after Krishna defeats Kansa, so that puts him in his teens. And Shishu had to first grow up and make a name for himself as a perv by the time of Rukimini Haran. By the above calculation. Krishna would have had to kill Kansa and Shishu would have been born before even Krishna was bornšŸ˜†.

Finally, this is what I concluded,. If G can be said to have called the 16K women he freed, his wives, he may have adopted some of the orphaned kids as well. The 12 year penance in the Himalayas may have actually been his military campaigns against various kings. Therefore, I read Prads as a war orphan brought back by G.

In fact in HariVamsa, G's uncle Gandusha was supposed to be given 4 boys, the youngest of whom was Raukmineya, to raise. And the stanza specifies that it was before Rukimini was bornšŸ˜†. One interesting thing I found was that one of the 4 boys was named Panchala😲. Am beginning to think that Prad, Dhrisht and Panchali may have been war orphans who Krishna took and planted in different places. No, they were not infants and were probably in mid teens when that happened. Prads was probably the youngest. In my theory, that makes him Panchali's brother. He was actually present in KK, although belief is that no one from G's immediate family took part. Balram drops off Prads in the Pandava camp before he takes off on his pilgrimage.

I have also been trying to figure out the Ashtabharya. If we go by normal laws of biology, most of them possibly could not have existed! See what I said about Rukmini above. Same for Jambavati as Samba's mother. Kalindi was actually Yamuna, the river. Laxmana's story is the same story as the daughter of Dury. And so on and so forth. The only one who could possibly have been real is Satyabhama. That is, I haven't found anything yet to show that she was not real.

In fact, I believe Bankim Chandra says Krishna had only 1 wife. I think it may have been Satyabhama. I am glad. I like her. She seems so real! Bengalis, tell me what does K M Mushi say about this? And someone is compiling a MB encyclopedia and one of his IVs suggests that he thinks the gazillion wives were an interpolation to satisfy Western conception of Krishna. I am not sure though, he could have meant it the other way around too. Will have to wait for the book to find out

Edited by AnuMP - 10 years ago
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: ...Diala...



<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" color="#006600">few pages back, someone said Sutas of a family who get married to Kshatriya princesses for 7 generations will become Kshartiyas.. so Suta-Kashtrani marriages are fine I guess ofcourse if the princess is fine with it..</font>



<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" color="#006600">Also, Sukracharya had to grant a 'boon' that sons of Devyani-Yayati will Kshatriyas instead of Suta clan.. so it is seriously sad to see people claiming that Karna did not miss anything in life due to abandonment, Suta being a sub-class of Kshatriyas..</font>



Seriously...when did this post of mine indicate that? 😭
Wat I meant is...Karna already had a bitter experience at Rangbhoomi...
He was also quite learned about scriptures...so y would he participate n invite trouble for himself?
I think he went only to support his friend Duryodhan...bcoz I seriously cannot believe that a great warrior like him could miss the target as in Southern versions...

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