Is hinduism on the path of extinction - Page 8

Originally posted by: chatbuster

qwerts, sorry i could not get through the responses you had there. maybe if you try to delineate them clearly?

meanwhile, hopefully some of these sound bites will help. 😉

first, religion is the belief system we build to give some meaning to our lives. much like various theories we build, some of which we cant even prove but which we nevertheless find helpful in explaining certain facts;

second, reincarnation is the philosophical structure we build to allow us to make sense of good and bad fortune, of feast and famine, of a good kid who develops cancer when he's 10 and a bad guy who gets to be rich and live a full life, when all traditional explanations fail. it more closely links cause and effect than do other competiting religious hypothesis imo;

again, these are beliefs as opposed to scientifically developed theories. but then even so many theories are just that, theories. waiting for the next einstein to improve on what came before, like how it was with einstein and newton. most times they only serve to explain facts we observe, like why that apple falls on your head. and most times, cant prove or disprove even what we commonly believe to be true ie. theory of gravity.

if we can now go beyond that, let's get back to the funny prescription stuff you had back there. yes, different religions do lead to different prescriptions. but you have to go beyond childish rule-based thinking to abstract higher form thinking to understand that. 😉 first, doesnt belief in religion itself lead to different thoughts and actions? if we knew we'd never have to face moral, legal or spiritual consequences for running off with the other guy's money or his girl, would we be so reluctant to do so? ditto for all the commandments.

in like manner, if we knew that nth hour salvations are all that is required for the gates of heaven to open, why bother leading a good hindu life? hey, hindus are going to hell anyway, arent they? but even as christians, why sacrifice on all the good sinful things throughout life? just make sure you have those last few minutes to call a priest and go thru a transformation. lot different than believing that everyting we do this lifetime will somehow have some impact later, the alternative karmic/ reincarnation theory.

another example, the crazies who blew up wtc. werent they operating under the how-to-get-a-virgin prescription? 😆

get now how various religions lead to to different prescriptions? and i am not even talking here about all the different idiotic dos-and-donts they all have, but in a wider philosophical sense.

Like I siad there is no co-relation bet; Science and religion. All that scientst do is express humity in the face of the unknown.. Religion rationalizes all that..If an apple falls down, its always going to obey that law.. which is gravity.. I dont need to see it.. If based on gravity... I predict if you jump out of empire state you will land on the ground.. No amount of experimentation will make you fly.and reach for the skies. So Science works differently..

Reincarnation - Now let me be the first person who starts hinduism.. Whats my mindset.. Ok . I have defined all the Gods necessary..Now there is no way to make some people believe... so we have miracles which our Gods created.. but whats the punishment for the arrogant disbelievers.. We know they cant really do anything to them by just giving some retribution in current life in a divine way.. we create this being born as a monkey, dog etc.. concept...and ideas of emancipation... Islam gives retribution right away since they dont have reincarnation.. so if you defile "our" concept of God..you would be beheaded.. no deferred retribution...that "our' is nothing but the ego of the community....😊

All said all this concept of reincarnation and ghosts is mainly a figment of imagination and your attempts to factor in scientific concepts its like the pandit who dabbles in scientific reasonings for his rituals.. when all that it is, is a primitive concept without any profound thinking... yet.. I admire the way hinduism has devised a perfectly logical closed system with no loop-holes.. So if the bullet missed me, god was there to save me, if it hits me.... god desired it or maybe it was my previous karma...😆

Man I find it really ridiculous that you even defend for sake of debate such baseless ideas devoid of any logic and absolutely evident primitive thinking...😆

Originally posted by: qwertyesque

Like I siad there is no co-relation bet; Science and religion. All that scientst do is express humity in the face of the unknown.. Religion rationalizes all that..If an apple falls down, its always going to obey that law.. which is gravity.. I dont need to see it.. If based on gravity... I predict if you jump out of empire state you will land on the ground.. No amount of experimentation will make you fly.and reach for the skies. So Science works differently..

haha, wait a minute right there. this is really good. 😆sure, gravity "explains" why that apple falls on your head. but that is tautology. how do we get gravity? why does the apple obey that law? gravity? lol. circular reasoning.😆 how did you get gravity in the first place? that's when we get to the theory part. and that's what is so hard to prove. got it now? even einstein floundered over the absence of gravitational repulsion. but somehow you find it all so obvious😆

Reincarnation - Now let me be the first person who starts hinduism.. Whats my mindset.. Ok . I have defined all the Gods necessary..Now there is no way to make some people believe... so we have miracles which our Gods created.. but whats the punishment for the arrogant disbelievers.. We know they cant really do anything to them by just giving some retribution in current life in a divine way.. we create this being born as a monkey, dog etc.. concept...and ideas of emancipation...

this some theory you just propounded?😆

next thing we'll have from you is an understanding of hinduism as worshipping idols. boss, like reincarnation, there's an explanation and understanding that targets the average head, and then there's a higher one. come on. do better than this. at least try and understand the scientific points i raised before launching into the comedy😆

Islam gives retribution right away since they dont have reincarnation.. so if you defile "our" concept of God..you would be beheaded.. no deferred retribution...that "our' is nothing but the ego of the community....😊

and that gives it scientific validation?😆

All said all this concept of reincarnation and ghosts is mainly a figment of imagination and your attempts to factor in scientific concepts its like the pandit who dabbles in scientific reasonings for his rituals..

thanks for the comic characterization and making it an interesting read. but you have done nothing to refute any of the science i did bring up😉

when all that it is, is a primitive concept without any profound thinking... yet.. I admire the way hinduism has devised a perfectly logical closed system with no loop-holes.. So if the bullet missed me, god was there to save me, if it hits me.... god desired it or maybe it was my previous karma...😆

you sure have devised so many comic explanations for a simple exterpolation of cause and effect to a pssibly infinite past😆 always like to go the tedi-unglee-ghee way?😆

Man I find it really ridiculous that you even defend for sake of debate such baseless ideas devoid of any logic and absolutely evident primitive thinking...😆

lol. is this the best refutation you can come up with?😆

Originally posted by: chatbuster

Originally posted by: qwertyesque

there u go again. still dont get what the hoopla is about gravity, do u? 😆yes, gravity is defined as force of attraction, but how do u get to this force? gravity? 😛 if u are having trouble here, try to investigate following points: what's the theory behind it? and why has it been so important to develop a theory for it if we can get by with your observations?😉

now let's take all the comic stuff.

first, you asked for how religions might differ in their prescritption for how we lead our lives, sort of challenging me to provide you with any example. you got that. gave you not one, but three examples- one from hinduism, one from christinaity, one from the fanatics who were practising their own brand of religion. that ok now?😉

next, somewhere you moved on to reincarnation. buddy, you started with the premise that it cant be proven, so it is all hallucination. well, the world should really make your head spin then. incidentally, can you prove you are not a hallucination? 😛😆

and there were other points made. but somehow you didnt see the reasoning and the connection with some established scientific principles. sorry bud, but i aint going to try anymore. hard for me to do what all those teachers havent been able to do all these years. i'd be really hallucinating if i thought i'd succees😉😆

Originally posted by: chatbuster

there u go again. still dont get what the hoopla is about gravity, do u? 😆yes, gravity is defined as force of attraction, but how do u get to this force? through observation and scientific experiments...is that too diffucult.. yes these dont create gavity but discover it...gravity? 😛 if u are having trouble here, try to investigate following points: what's the theory behind it? and why has it been so important to develop a theory for it if we can get by with your observations?😉...The theory is simple but scientific processes include formalization as a part of it.. to find if there is more to it... we dont stop once the apple hits the head...😆... You need to be clear of what you are trying to say...are you associating gravity with the religious mysticism....?😆

now let's take all the comic stuff.

first, you asked for how religions might differ in their prescritption for how we lead our lives, sort of challenging me to provide you with any example. you got that. gave you not one, but three examples- one from hinduism, one from christinaity, one from the fanatics who were practising their own brand of religion. that ok now?😉....what exactly you saying here...? The scientific points you raised really have no bearing what you want to say except for hte fact that you happen to perceive some connexion bet' them and the religious ideas primitive humans thought of...😆

next, somewhere you moved on to reincarnation. buddy, you started with the premise that it cant be proven, so it is all hallucination. well, the world should really make your head spin then. incidentally, can you prove you are not a hallucination? 😛😆 definitely i can prove my conscious state and predict next few hours of wilfull action....and several other ways I can prove that its not hallucination.. watching lot of sci-fi lately./???😆

and there were other points made. but somehow you didnt see the reasoning and the connection with some established scientific principles. sorry bud, but i aint going to try anymore. hard for me to do what all those teachers havent been able to do all these years. i'd be really hallucinating if i thought i'd succees😉😆...u got that right... u may be hallucinating... for i think you are the only one who is spinning wierd ideas on which you wont bet a single $ of yours....😆

Originally posted by: qwertyesque

there u go again. still dont get what the hoopla is about gravity, do u? 😆yes, gravity is defined as force of attraction, but how do u get to this force? through observation and scientific experiments...is that too diffucult.. yes these dont create gavity but discover it...gravity? 😛 if u are having trouble here, try to investigate following points: what's the theory behind it? and why has it been so important to develop a theory for it if we can get by with your observations?😉...The theory is simple but scientific processes include formalization as a part of it.. to find if there is more to it... we dont stop once the apple hits the head...😆... You need to be clear of what you are trying to say...are you associating gravity with the religious mysticism....?😆

now let's take all the comic stuff.

first, you asked for how religions might differ in their prescritption for how we lead our lives, sort of challenging me to provide you with any example. you got that. gave you not one, but three examples- one from hinduism, one from christinaity, one from the fanatics who were practising their own brand of religion. that ok now?😉....what exactly you saying here...? The scientific points you raised really have no bearing what you want to say except for hte fact that you happen to perceive some connexion bet' them and the religious ideas primitive humans thought of...😆

next, somewhere you moved on to reincarnation. buddy, you started with the premise that it cant be proven, so it is all hallucination. well, the world should really make your head spin then. incidentally, can you prove you are not a hallucination? 😛😆 definitely i can prove my conscious state and predict next few hours of wilfull action....and several other ways I can prove that its not hallucination.. watching lot of sci-fi lately./???😆

and there were other points made. but somehow you didnt see the reasoning and the connection with some established scientific principles. sorry bud, but i aint going to try anymore. hard for me to do what all those teachers havent been able to do all these years. i'd be really hallucinating if i thought i'd succees😉😆...u got that right... u may be hallucinating... for i think you are the only one who is spinning wierd ideas on which you wont bet a single $ of yours....😆

gravity comes because you observe it? good circular reasoning. to be expected from you, given all the other drivel you come up with constantly. might work with certain audiences, not everyone😆

also, if it is possible for you, try not to mix things up. focus. 😆you asked for how different religions lead to different prescriptions for how one leads their life. you got it. that answer has to be at least prescriptive/ philosophical, not necessarily scientific.

the science came up in other contexts. based on my belief of how reincarnation works. and unlike you, at least i am working on the principle that mass and energy dont vanish into thin air just because we are born and die. that to me is mumbo-jumbo. at least my belief has some grounding in scientific conservation principles. what is yours?

by the way, other than throwing "this is weird, that is ridiculous", is it so hard to get anything of substance from you? you've not answered how it might very well be possible that all this might have the stamp of a creator, not necessarily be accidental. any proof for your animal-in-heat theories? anything to explain the order amidst all the chaos? all coincidence? the nature you talked about an outcome of some accidental burst condom?

now try this again. see if you can follow.😊

we observe that hammer falling on your head making you brain-dead; we conjecture that it happens because of gravitational attraction; we build a grand theory to explain how and why that gravity comes about in the first place; but even someone like einstein is puzzled; cant prove that theory for sure though doubting it might not be very sensible;

now we observe that some people are born rich/ or poor, with deformities for no seeming fault of theirs; some of us see the inequity in all that; we build a belief system that perhaps it is all karmic; cant prove it or disprove it, cant even begin to test it with the science we know today, but just because we cannot does not make it any less likely or unlikely. similar in some sense to where we are with gravity

and i simply pose the conservation question additionally- where does all that energy/ mass in us go after death? has to be still around somewhere. why cant it not take reshape? anything you have to prove that it cant? buddy, at least i am open to possibilities that science has not found all the answers. your approach seems to be to scoff at things. fine, might make you look smart for your kind of audience. does not do much for me.😉

Originally posted by: chatbuster

gravity comes because you observe it? good circular reasoning. to be expected from you, given all the other drivel you come up with constantly. might work with certain audiences, not everyone😆...read that again and see what I said before interpreting...😉

also, if it is possible for you, try not to mix things up. focus. 😆you asked for how different religions lead to different prescriptions for how one leads their life. you got it. that answer has to be at least prescriptive/ philosophical, not necessarily scientific.Every religion has one goal to grab the conscience of the followers and make them live with fear of that unknown.. yes it helps is retaining goodness and civil behavior exactly for that reason...

the science came up in other contexts. based on my belief of how reincarnation works. and unlike you, at least i am working on the principle that mass and energy dont vanish into thin air just because we are born and die. that to me is mumbo-jumbo. at least my belief has some grounding in scientific conservation principles. what is yours?So now einstein is being marginalized with these analogies...

by the way, other than throwing "this is weird, that is ridiculous", is it so hard to get anything of substance from you? I gave you so much of substance from medical worldm psychiatry, physics... without defiling their worth and you coolly misunderstood them - ignorance is bliss isnt it? 😆you've not answered how it might very well be possible that all this might have the stamp of a creator I dont believe in miracles nor a power of superior kind.. the natural laws are pretty evident - just visit a lunatic asylum and you will see there is nothing like faith or God....there is just an incessant dynamic of nature in time.. which I wont call God..., not necessarily be accidental. any proof for your animal-in-heat theories? anything to explain the order amidst all the chaos? all coincidence? the nature you talked about an outcome of some accidental burst condom?

now try this again. see if you can follow.😊

we observe that hammer falling on your head making you brain-dead; we conjecture that it happens because of gravitational attraction; we build a grand theory to explain how and why that gravity comes about in the first place; but even someone like einstein is puzzled; cant prove that theory for sure though doubting it might not be very sensible; You conclude that it happened due to the hammer.. the coroner can exactly say what part of the cerebral cortex got the trauma.. to make it brain dead.. So your speculations are based on lack of knowledge..in its entirety.😊.. same holds for people who created the religious abstractions.. .Its amusing to know even educated people are victims of same thought processes...the only difference they have einsteins and heisenbergs to throw in the mix just to ensure they are "state-of-the-art" thought processes...😆

now we observe that some people are born rich/ or poor, with deformities for no seeming fault of theirs; some of us see the inequity in all that; we build a belief system that perhaps it is all karmic; cant prove it or disprove it, cant even begin to test it with the science we know today, but just because we cannot does not make it any less likely or unlikely. similar in some sense to where we are with gravity...man now I see how ridiculous it is... Earlier I thought you were making some forays into sound connexsion.. never mind.. Let me play the bozo's advocate here... Nothing comes from void.. people born poor or rich - u mean when somebody is born is there gold nuggets in their umbilical cord?😆.. Nature has certain fundamental laws... why those laws exist can be purely axiomatic...an inherent trait of nature.. Science tries to find more and more about these things.. where religion plays games with people minds using this unknown....😊.. Children are born with deformities because one of this natural processes got altered on the way.. sure your God can sit enroute and alter it there... but thats where the difference lies... Its like I said religious people close the loop pretty well.. so if I got run over by a car and die God wanted it that way if I dont, God saved me...thats bad rationalization...😊.. Everything has a good reason if you care to find out.. but then you have to traverse a knowledge base from macro to micro.... Alternatively you can sit and attribute this a that "God" of yours...😊

and i simply pose the conservation question additionally- where does all that energy/ mass in us go after death, matter and everything else becomes something else chemically, bones become ash, etc....if body is burnt and the same chemical reactions take place which a chemist can easilly itemize has to be still around somewhere. why cant it not take reshapethats where my connectivity comes into picture.. I dont see that speculation closing on anything derived from a logical view point but just some kinda guesswork? anything you have to prove that it cant? I can hold that matter which was dead and gone and can ensure you its going nowhere for the esoteric group to speculate...it decays and follows the same natural cycle of its own.. again no one conducts this orchestration...buddy, at least i am open to possibilities that science has not found all the answers. your approach seems to be to scoff at thingsI scoff at things which are proposed as hypothesis based on lack of exhaustive information...😊. fine, might make you look smart for your kind of audience. does not do much for me.😉

Dear QWERTY and CB!

Wonderful posts made here wrt this topic👏👏👏!!!

Will try to join your debate after I finish reading all of your posts!!

This debate is reminding me the discussion of My two grandpa's one a Vedic a Scholar and other a Jiddu krishna Murthy's follower!!

Once again my hearty wishes to both of you guys for making good posts!!

Affectionately,

Myth