Is hinduism on the path of extinction - Page 10

Originally posted by: lighthouse

Excellent debate both you guys..👏.. Carry on.

Btw Qwerts.. LSD stands for Let Sudesh Dazzle or Debate? 😉 😃

Thanks LH... sure dazzle, dabble, whatever you want...😊.

But here I want to apologize to all who have honest faith in God. Its easy to defile something.. but if there isnt enough known its not right to do so...Its literally vandalizing sensitivities.. The thing is there is enough, negativity destruction, devastation, disease, depravity, disparity around driven by human will than overpowered by a positive willing God which coupled with the lack of empirical evidence of any kind is what makes me total agnostic..about everything in and around God and religion...If it comes to admiring something I would admire hindu religion because it creates a nice abstraction and by throwing karma reincarnation and divine retribution in the mix it kind a creates a perfectly closed system which kinda justifies all of the above... and more over it happened in times when einstein and heisenberg, computersetc.. and others weren't influencing..and was a purely thought driven system.

Originally posted by: qwertyesque

Ok just to avoid going in circles.. here is the thing... give me a few bulleted propositions based on which you infer the possibility of reincarnation... use as few words as possible.😊

i dont think this will be ever ending. but all the same:

1. you asked me to justify my statement that different religions lead to different prescriptions for how we lead our lives. you asked for one example. i gave you three.

2. at some point you mock how science can have anything to do with religion. sorry buddy, the answers have been long. still what i had is shorter than that other article which actually makes for very good reading if one can be bothered. if anything, science and scientists have always been interested in exploring the unknown and unearthing them. religious frontier is perhaps that ultimate frontier.

3. you then suggest that you want hypothesis with "exhaustive information". good stuff. shows your understanding (?) of hypothesis. consistent coherent ideas are not just about picking phrases, each sounding individually ok, and stringing them together in any sentence. That's a important distinction because nowhere do i suggest that either you nor i nor anyone has that "exhaustive information". that's why it is a hypothesis.😉

4. now you have moved, perhaps a bit more correctly, to requiring that my hypothesis be inference-based, though it's hard to be sure given what you write. anyway, sometimes all we have is hunch/ gut-feel/ overwehelming coincidence. everything in life is not just mathemetical addition. in fact, heisenberg itself is about probability, implying uncertainty and imprecision, implyng also that at times all that can be known is possibility.😉

5. latest is that for you, a belief in god has to show that he/ she excercizes good "will" all the time. and that his "will" somehow make sense to us. dont know how or why that requirement has to be true. god can surely leave the details up to us, and let things run based on our individual karmas.

as for the tsunami bit you had there and everyone getting killed at the same time, you are making the flaw of thinking that everything necessarily should get reset to karmic equality in this lifetime itself across everyone. 😕 😊think about that. if this life itself is an equalizer for all our previous karma, then why would anyone be born rich, poor or with deformity next lifetime?????? karma is for me like a bank account. some run it down more than others, some replenish it sooner. and time of death is anyways just one variable for defining karmic payback. you seem to be alluding that it is the only thing.

6. for the longest time, it was hard to pin down your position. now we know that the positions are different on following scopes (a) you dont believe in god (b) you do not believe in reincarnation. actually either would be still consistent without the other though you are against both. without trying to be funny here, let me just say that i am not really expecting to convince you. or care to. have no hallucinations on that score that i'd be able to succeed when nothing else has worked for you.😛

anyway, will try and get together that bullet point stuff for you if that can help😆

Originally posted by: qwertyesque

Thanks LH... sure dazzle, dabble, whatever you want...😊.

But here I want to apologize to all who have honest faith in God. Its easy to defile something.. but if there isnt enough known its not right to do so...Its literally vandalizing sensitivities.. The thing is there is enough, negativity destruction, devastation, disease, depravity, disparity around driven by human will than overpowered by a positive willing God which coupled with the lack of empirical evidence of any kind is what makes me total agnostic..about everything in and around God and religion...If it comes to admiring something I would admire hindu religion because it creates a nice abstraction and by throwing karma reincarnation and divine retribution in the mix it kind a creates a perfectly closed system which kinda justifies all of the above... and more over it happened in times when einstein and heisenberg, computersetc.. and others weren't influencing..and was a purely thought driven system.

ohhh...so that's what the "d"azzeling "d"ebator actually meant by the "D" in LSD😆😆.....j/k

Rahul and qwerto, we enjoyed your debate a lot. thanks for the wonderful reads😊

Originally posted by: chatbuster

I wish to quote this :

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnaat purnamudachyate,
purnasya purnamadaya purnamevaavashishyate"

"That (pure consciousness) is full(perfect); this(the manifest universe of matter; of names and forms being maya) is full. This fullness has been projected from that fullness. When this fullness merges in that fullness, all that remains is fullness."

Wishes,

Mythili

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

ohhh...so that's what the "d"azzeling "d"ebator actually meant by the "D" in LSD😆😆.....j/k

Rahul and qwerto, we enjoyed your debate a lot. thanks for the wonderful reads😊

and here's the simple bullet point stuff that he asked for (ok, bullet paragraphs). 😊 Different lines of reasoning leading to the same direction.

1. there's cause and effect everywhere around, if we search or look back far enough. that's the dominant principle. so in a sense the null hypothesis that one should try to prove wrong if one wants to do more than mock or spout english from the latest attention-grabbing author;😉

2. in that case, the effects around us (universe, nature and all of us) have a cause.

3. that cause in layman's parlance is referred to as god. it could perhaps be the unified force field of scientific terminology that i mentioned much before any of the various articles showed up unsolicited by me to support my viewpoints

that's one line of argument, cause and effect. based on elementary newtonian-type reasoning. next is the intelligent design principle.

1. too much order and pattern and symmetry amidst apparent chaos around us. accidents and randomness go hand in hand. there is too much beauty and clock-work precision around to label it all as accidental. hand of god?

2. eg. we could perhaps relate to. someone getting pregnant once could be labelled as a mistake. when same person keeps getting pregnant all the time, maybe there's something there- loose morals, desire for kids, all condoms gone bad at the same time. but there again is a reason. but whatever the reason, the assumption that there is some reason becomes more overwhelming when there's more of that good stuff happening. it's what we have going in te world. too much order.

now getting to reincarnation, bit of hinduism-

1. point i started out making was that it has more scientific basis than competing heaven and hell kind of theories. at least there's some energy conservation principle at work. one might be able to come up with that perhaps even for the heaven hell stuff but to my mind that would be very very far stretch of the wildest imagination.

2. western religions require more of an interventionist god. someone who sits in judgment. someone who needs to act after every lifetime. too much work i think for someone who is a lot smarter than that. I think god has simply set the machinery in motion which allows things to go on without Him having to be bothered intervening all the time. that system is karma for me, reincarnation.

3. takes care of explaining why someone is born rich, poor or with deformities. much like theory of gravity tries to find the underlying reason for why apple falls to the earth in the first place. u can test the latter observations, no way yet to test the former. that's the only difference.

4. can even explain everyone getting killed at the same time as in a tsunami on grounds of there not being any requirement for karma to be reset equally after every lifetime. and death is not the only karmic equalizer anyway. which is why we get different kinds of births next life.

5. in fact, western religions dont give those tsunami victims a chance to call their priest for a last moment salvation meeting. or to say that prayer. sort of get one's head chopped off without anything to look forward to next life.

moving on more to hinduism,

1. there's a line you might have heard of "we are one with the universe". that to me is perhaps the biggest philosophical difference between hindusim and the 3 main judeo-christian religions (judaism, christianity, islam). that belief leads us to our understanding that there is no separate divinity or existence away from us. now how does that have some grounding in science-

2. in that, we cannot even be sure of where we are in the universe. the particles that make us up have some probability of even being on the other side of the universe. not even in the shape we see. hesienberg uncertainty principle leads to that. how can we then not be one with the universe when our energy, halo and particles can have some kind of extended diffuse existence.

3. on balance, lots of other things i could go on with but the overwhelming reasoning lead me towards hinduism. true it cannot be science at this stage but there are deductions and inferences drawn from other observations we consider true in our lives.

Originally posted by: Dabulls23

I did not read all those pages full of Towers. I know you both Qwert and CB are great debators and wanted to say you both simply rock 👏

Just a quick Q. Are you not tired yet 😳 😉 😆

would be happy to get restarted once the spamming break is over. 😉lots of energy one can get from mc squared. and it helps to be able to put all this together with ease😉

Originally posted by: chatbuster

and here's the simple bullet point stuff that he asked for😊 Different lines of reasoning leading to the same direction.

1. there's cause and effect everywhere around, if we search or look back far enough. that's the dominant priciple. so in a sense a null hypothesis that one should try to prove wrong if one does wants to do more than mock or spout the latest book;😉 Cause is measured in impact of its proximity to effect.. otherwise every question I ask you, you will have one answer "Because I am alive"😆... There is cause by will, there is a cause by uncontrolled dynamic... Most natural happenings are a result of uncontrolled dynamic.. unless you have a God there playing in the sandbox and scooping up the water to cause tsunami...😊.. also anything non-scientific looks at remote cause... to gauge effect but remote causes for possible prognostic analysis... religion looks at effects by will of a super-power....

2. in that case, the effects around us (universe, nature and all of us) have a cause. No cause by will.

3. that cause in layman's parlance is referred to as god. it could perhaps be the unified force field of scientific terminology that i mentioned much before any of the various articles showed up unsolicited by me to support my viewpoints..Sure but the effects attributed to either differ... We expect more from "our" God then scientist or anyone does from a force-field theory.. Now if from hinduism you have transcended to hindu-fusion you better establish the axioms right... cant have will anywhere.

that's one line of argument, cause and effect. based on elementary newtonian-type reasoning. next is the intelligent design principle. i just told why cause and effect cant be distant... If I have been losing money in the Stock market for last 10 years... the actual thing that logically makes be broke is the last penny put there in, not the 10 years of miscalculation...😊

1. too much order and pattern and symmetry amidst apparent chaos around us. accidents and randomness go hand in hand. there is too much beauty and clock-work precision around to label it all as accidental. hand of god? Important definition here "Whats chaos according to you? I dont understand it as "confusion" so better define it in your way...dont google...😆.. Explain what you mean by accidents and randomness go hand in hand... heisenberg defines randomness without chaos or accidents as well...😊

2. eg. we could perhaps relate to. someone getting pregnant once could be labelled as a mistake. when same person keeps getting pregnant all the time, maybe there's something there- loose morals, desire for kids, all condoms gone bad at the same time. but there again is a reason. but whatever the reason, the assumption that there is some reason becomes more overwhelming when there's more of that good stuff happening. it's what we have going in te world. too much order.In absence of science you can reason this way for everything...religion was that quest...

now getting to reincarnation-

1. point i started out making was that it has more scientific basis than competing heaven and hell kind of theories. at least there's some energy conservation principle at work. one might be able to come up with that perhaps even for the heaven hell stuff but to my mind that would be very very far stretch of the wildest imagination.So you mean at given point of time the number of souls on this earth is constant due to apparent transference through reincarnation... if my domain includes all movable living things from amoeba to a blue whale. is that right? how do you explain population growth. is it that new souls are created or people share them?😉

2. western religions require more of an interventionist god. someone who sits in judgment. someone who needs to act after every lifetime. too much work i think for someone who is a lot smarter than that. I think god has simply set the machinery in motion which allows things to go on without Him having to be bothered intervening all the time. that system is karma for me, reincarnation. The naivete is the same whether it is an intervening God, dice throwing God, indifferent God (hindusim)...it all boiled down to the fact if there was a head for that religion who could force his followers into believing... it. Since hinduism didnt have one... they subjected the guys to this unknown concept of karma... just to poke in some more guilt...😊

3. takes care of explaining why someone is born rich, poor or with deformities. much like theory of gravity tries to find the underlying reason for why apple falls to the earth in the first place. u can test the latter observations, no way yet to test the former. that's the only difference. I said so many times... chromosomal alterations in formative stage cause downs syndrome.. if your father is Dhirubhai you are born with a billion in teh bank... Now if you ask why Anil is dhirubhai's son and not you or I and try to establsih God that way... thats the defensive closed reasoning I have blaming religious thinking for...😊

getting to hinduism,

1. there's a line you might have heard of "we are one with the universe". that to me is perhaps the biggest philosophical difference between hindusim and the 3 main judeo-christian religions (judaism, christianity, islam). that belief leads us to our understanding that there is no separate divinity or existence away from us. now how does that have some grounding in science-...There are definitely egoistic Gods galore... But what is says shouldnt be interpreted more than its meant to be... We are but thats like saying we are a part of a whole and no religion denies that... even if they dont say it explicitly...😊

2. in that, we cannot even be sure of where we are in the universe. the particles that make us up have some probability of even being on the other side of the universe. not even in the shape we see. hesienberg uncertainty principle leads to that. how can we then not be one with the universe when our energy, halo and particles can have some kind of extended diffuse existence....But is there any connection.. We are one with nature... we exchange gases and mutually subsist.. but is there anything that connects us by consciousness.. nothing.. If a hurl a stone into water the stone cause the ripples not my hurling....

3. on balance, lots of other things i could go on with but the overwhelming reasoning lead me towards hinduism. true it cannot be science at this stage but there are deductions and inferences drawn from other observations we consider true in our lives....You can go on not beacause of reasoning but o many things are unknown and open to speculation even using sound hypothesis that you could for eg. never prove there is no heaven or hell.. i mean religious dwells in that domain....😊

Originally posted by: Dabulls23

I did not read all those pages full of Towers. I know you both Qwert and CB are great debators and wanted to say you both simply rock 👏

Just a quick Q. Are you not tired yet 😳 😉 😆

When people want to say that the existence of gravity is not known so I want to attribute that to the possible existence of god.. who is spinning the wheel.. the argument can never end....Because if you delve on the unknown to base the hypothesis even using scientiifc termilnologies - all it leads to is which speculation is better😆....... for god to exist show me some consistent empirical evidence.. and the key word here is consistent.. dont hide behind the facade of karma and reincarnation....😆