Is a higher birthrate the solution?

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 10 years ago

#31

In my personal experience, I have not had a single problem or concerns with Muslims I have come across in my day to day life. While I did disagree with some conservative views some held, there were no conflicts because we all believed in individual rights and liberty. The Muslims in my experience also have highly valued the democratic constitutions of USA/India respectively and wouldn't threaten it. Therefore, I do not see a reason to view the entire religious community in the same light as the extremists and terrorists.

There is also the country of Turkey, which for a Muslim majority has been a very democratic and progressive nation. So with the right leadership and direction, even a Muslim majority nation can uphold democracy.

I won't deny that there is a serious problem within Islam. It is also an undeniable fact that most Islamic nations that follow Sharia are notorious for atrocities, human rights violations and a whole slew of ethical problems. I also believe that the liberal and moderate Muslims are not really doing anything to change the public image of their religion. The growing cancer of Islamic fundamentalism must be addressed.

I don't think the problem is Islam, but the lack of reform in Islam. Christianity also was once a pretty shitty religion. Their inquisitions are infamous in history for unimaginable cruelty. The spread of Christianity actually brutally wiped out more cultures than the spread of Islam did. The Renaissance and protestant reform movements did a lot to change Christianity to the less threatening religion it is today.

So again I reiterate, I don't care about the growth of Islam anywhere. I care about the strengthening of democratic structures and trying to infuse reform within Islam.

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#32

RTH, the bit about Christianity in your post is a red herring. The spotlight here is not on Christianity but on the Muslim world as viewed in a geopolitical sense. Also, the narrative is less about individual Muslims who may or may not be model citizens in their country of domicile and more about Islamic Nations (Muslim-majority countries to be specific) From what I understand, and the topic maker could correct me if I am wrong, the concern here is that in a scenario where Muslims outnumber the non-Muslims, is there a possibility of India turning into an Islamic state sometime in the future keeping the current growth rates in mind? And in such an eventuality, what are the potential pitfalls?

For every Turkey or Indonesia, there are at least as many, if not more, failed / dysfunctional Muslim countries / states such as Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Somalia, Sudan, Guinea and Iraq.

So, I still see a need to assume a stance in the debate. I am saying that a Muslim-majority India is an undesirable situation for India. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you don't care as long as "democratic structures are strengthened" and "Islam is infused with reforms", which suggests that you are willing to absorb potential risks in the hope that we could implement what you suggest. My question to you then would be: how do you propose to do it, especially the latter?

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 10 years ago

#33

Muslim population in India is rising rapidly. There is a remote probability that Muslim population will become the probability. What happens to Hindus and other religions then?

India is a democracy. The constitution of a democracy is supposed to be secular and stand the test of time. Separation of church and state ensures that no matter who the majority is, everyone is treated fairly and equally.

Create a secular uniform civil code. Abolish reservations based on religions and minorities, and create needs based reservations. Eliminate religion data from all public records. Focus on spreading education into conservative hard lining communities. Islam seems threatening because of appeasement politics. If we focus on a solid separation of church and state, I don't see a problem in increasing Muslim population.

I don't think Christianity is a red herring. Abrahamic religions have the same roots and have pretty consistent beliefs except minor narrative details and the messiah. Christianity is not the focus of discussion here, but it is an illustration that if one Abrahamic religion can go through progressive reform; Islam can go through such reform over time. In terms of religious age, Islam is still a rebellious delinquent teen who thinks everyone is against them rather than an adult who has matured and come to senses.

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#34

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

Indian Muslim population is around 170 million, as per the estimated figure for the year 2011, which is roughly 13.4% of the total population of India. Projections for future population growth in India show that by the end of the 21st century India's total population will stabilize in which the Muslim population would be less than 20% of total, as noted by the Sachar Committee.

Source: http://www.academia.edu/3573737/Demographic_dividend_and_Indian_Muslims

So, it doesn't appear that Muslims will be a majority in India anytime soon.

But, hypothetically speaking, if it were to happen (it being India turning into a Muslim-majority country) I perceive a threat to a) Democracy b) Economy c) Religious freedom of minorities d) Women.

I could elaborate more if anyone is interested in a debate / discussion along those lines.

Let me try this hypothesis for a bit here:-

But first are we assuming that Indian constitution remains the same and doesn't undergo any changes even in a case of Muslim-majority?

If So, then

Democracy - I don't see a consolidated minority party in this scenario,even with BJP aligning with 3rd front might not provide a feasible challenge. Eventually we will have the ruling parties with Islamic affiliations only. Cannot go the dictatorship way unless Army is cued in which needs massive constitutional overhaul.

Economy- Depends on a lot of macro and micro factors. Will need to see how western world perceives the democracy in India then . We may have good trading ties with UAE ( which we already sort of enjoy now , aren't max hedge funds in India be floated by UAE enterprises? ).

Religious freedom for minorities - Tricky. Hinduism is very abstract and spread out as a religion, so will be difficult to sustain as an entity. We might see it bifurcated into different categories actually. Or Might go the Indonesia way , which had Hindu lineage , then Buddhism but now is a Islamic state.

Women - Aligarh like situation, so I fear it might impact the freedom for women badly.

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#35

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

India is a democracy. The constitution of a democracy is supposed to be secular and stand the test of time. Separation of church and state ensures that no matter who the majority is, everyone is treated fairly and equally.

Create a secular uniform civil code. Abolish reservations based on religions and minorities, and create needs based reservations. Eliminate religion data from all public records. Focus on spreading education into conservative hard lining communities. Islam seems threatening because of appeasement politics. If we focus on a solid separation of church and state, I don't see a problem in increasing Muslim population.

Very whimsical and abstract notion , though. We cannot remove reservations unfortunately because all stratas of society are not on same platform . Reservations are there for reasons which run far deeper tha just religious distinction. Those issues cannot be sorted by a UCC. Till we have achieved basic social and economic equality we cannot remove reservations instantaneously.

So UCC doesn't solve that problem.

The UCC will affect only personal laws based on religion - those relating to marriage, divorce, adoption and inheritance. Criminal and civil laws are already common for all citizens. The only reason why UCC is supported in India is because of Anglo-Mohammedan law on marriage and divorce now in force, which is oppressive to women, even in such cases state does enjoy certain discretion. Like -Freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion' guaranteed under Article 25 of the Constitution of India.And for women , Section 125 of the Code of Criminal Procedure (CrPC). This section provides a system by which courts are permitted to pass orders for maintenance of wives, children and parents, under criminal procedures, irrespective of person's religious status.
The opposition surprisingly comes from minority religions who take UCC as a violation and a threat to their freedom.
Also establishing UCC will mean common language across the country as the official language, which takes away the flexibility of functioning in a democracy like India.

It is very easy to throw in UCC as a word but very difficult to understand it's implementation in terms of India. India is a democracy which has very cleverly ensured religious freedom as well as separation from state, not an easy job given the social structure of a country. We do err in it's implementation though , which is more of a question of efficiency .

You mentioned Turkey as an example, just a word they have a very strict rules when it comes to working women, infact in one of the OECD reports one of the reasons for their economic slump was lack of women as their labour force. The country has a law and order problem too.

Actually the idea of India being a Muslim majority country will mean lot of political, social and cultural implications. Heck even the definition of UCC in such a situation will change.

Edited by charminggenie - 10 years ago

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373577

Suspended

Posted: 10 years ago

#36

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

Well, that's the very definition of the word threat. Something likely to cause damage or danger. An indication of probable trouble.

The UAE way as in oil exports? Where would you find so many oil fields in the Indian subcontinent?

I meant it in terms of good economy . It doesnt have to be due to oil fields.

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#37

Originally posted by: zorrro

I meant it in terms of good economy . It doesnt have to be due to oil fields.

85% of UAE's economy is based on oil exports. So even though it is a predominantly Muslim state, because its oil reserves are the 7th largest in the world its economy is an exception rather than the norm for a Muslim-majority country.

There are about 57 member states in OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation) and their contribution to the world GDP is around 8%. Let that sink for a moment. Just 8% for 57 countries . And if you take away the contributions of oil rich member states such as Saudi, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar etc, it goes down to the low single digits. That's where Islamic nations stand, as far as contribution to the world economy is concerned.

Point I was making earlier in response to your post: if India were to become an Islamic nation, it would not find itself in the company of UAE or Saudi or Qatar because they have oil reserves and India doesn't. Right now India is considered a developing nation so which way do you think the economic development would turn if it were to become an Islamic nation, sans oil? Going by how the other member states in OIC are doing, a fair bet would be on a turn for the worse.

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373577

Suspended

Posted: 10 years ago

#38

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

85% of UAE's economy is based on oil exports. So even though it is a predominantly Muslim state, because its oil reserves are the 7th largest in the world its economy is an exception rather than the norm for a Muslim-majority country.

There are about 57 member states in OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation) and their contribution to the world GDP is around 8%. Let that sink for a moment. Just 8% for 57 countries . And if you take away the contributions of oil rich member states such as Saudi, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar etc, it goes down to the low single digits. That's where Islamic nations stand, as far as contribution to the world economy is concerned.

Point I was making earlier in response to your post: if India were to become an Islamic nation, it would not find itself in the company of UAE or Saudi or Qatar because they have oil reserves and India doesn't. Right now India is considered a developing nation so which way do you think the economic development would turn if it were to become an Islamic nation, sans oil? Going by how the other member states in OIC are doing, a fair bet would be on a turn for the worse.

So they are sort of living off the natural resources without much contribution of their own 🤓

Its most likely that a Muslim majority India would go the pakistan way which isnt such a good prospect Went through the link you had shared. It does not predict them becoming the majority in India or the world. That should be some relief---even though the minority leaves no stone unturned to make its presence felt with shocking regularity! 🤔

Edited by zorrro - 10 years ago

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 10 years ago

#39

@Genie

I am not talking about doing away with reservations completely. The system currently is flawed though. It makes certain people feel entitled because of their minority status. It is exploited by politicians for vote bank politics. Shifting to a needs and merit based support system would greatly benefit the nation.

Personal laws for inheritance, marriage etc based on religion are not only divisive. They are impractical for a secular democracy. It mixes religious beliefs in what should be a pragmatic universal law. It gives religions the belief that laws can be made to accommodate their religion. UCC in India can go a long way long term.

Turkey is by no means perfect. No nation is. Even the United States can be backward for women's rights. The point is that not all Muslim majority nations are theocratic nor are they like Saudi Arabia. As long as Islam can be gradually made to accommodate progressive reforms, there will be no threat if it is a majority.

Would you rather propose we eradicate Islam as a solution instead?

@K

Could you please elaborate by what you mean exactly by "what would happen to the nation"? I'm not sure I understand you completely.

Democracy doesn't come with any guarantees. As you explained, just about anything can threaten democracy. A charismatic leader could seize power overnight and change it. Most threats are also unforeseen. So doesn't it make more sense to focus on strengthening democracy as a whole rather than try to focus on Islam alone?

Why is it a red herring? Why is my explanation of the correlation unacceptable to you.

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Eh in the end I'm not breeding. I should leave the fretting about the future to those who care about populating it. 😆

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@K.Universe.

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#40

Originally posted by: zorrro

So they are sort of living off the natural resources without much contribution of their own 🤓

Yes, economies that are not diverse, that are not vibrant, that are built on natural resource extraction where their own population is a cost center, not well educated, not maketh a productive labor, that does not produce direct profit but adds to the cost of running the country, will not flourish. There is no value creation there. And whatever wealth they have, it is distributed unequally and inefficiently. Building a bunch of skyscrapers here and there, funded mostly by wealthy individuals, is not development.

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