Improper upbringing responsible for the development of a Rapist-mind? - Page 2

Originally posted by: Forever-KA

I have highlighted the problem in font size 6 I believe. See might, could, would is problem of the person and not the environment. When someone is watching bollywood or hollywood movies there are many who say we are conditioning young boys to turn into rapist. Should we blame them? Do we caution them? Do we point to that issue? In same manner there are hundreds of factors which DIRECTLY are trigger factors. If anything the what you are mentioning is an indirect effect on son's mind. A vulgar, nude scene is a direct factor.

If anything I dont think upbringing has much to do and if it has then it would be least of the factor unless upbringing is such that where a father is a criminal who tells son ok yeh go and enjoy. I dont think that happens much

Disagree, you don't tell a child how to judge a woman by her clothes and one should also tell the child, the difference between real and fictional things. Above all provide sex education. What might appear nude and vulgar for some , many might see it as a piece of art. The thing to caution is respecting others point of view , without demeaning others.

Upbringing enables to make a better judgement calls , it shapes the way we view things and form opinions. It is not just as simple as a son following his elders step into this heinous crime , but how he evaluates rape - is part of his social upbringing. As I mentioned earlier , this like the movies are trigger factors the final switch is in hands of that person's self control.

It might not explicitly facilitate rape but it does give them a leeway or an exit . The women's dressing sense became more important that what she went through. So a guy can rape and blame it to the girl as she was wearing inappropriate clothes. He in his mind might say that the girl was calling for it? This is how defense of a rapist works.

This does not explain family rape, child rape, rape of women dressed in full clothing, old age rape etc etc. As I said we are trying to make a weak connection strong. There are much more direct factors there

There are way too many factors that surround rape. Medically , studies have also marked varied mentalities and causes for different rapes. The point is why does a man think he is superior enough to a woman , so much as to violate her personal boundaries. One of those reasons happens to be his social believes like - inappropriate clothing, late hours , gender etc.

The ones who are criminal minded do not need any excuse to commit such crimes. They are like thugs roaming around who in drunken state or other state decide to do such an act with friends. Here policing etc important

KA, there are enough zillion cases where the perpetuate doesn't have a criminal record or mentality. A father might work a respectable job , infact say as a policeman , still he is very much capable of violating his daughter. It has happened and in most cases this is the case. Policing is important but it is more important that it starts at home. You treat all the children equally and teach them to be respectful to others point of view.

In case of frustrated mind the most important factor is person himself. Then comes trigger factors among which a mother pointing towards a dress in my opinion will be least of the least such factors.

Ka , read the defense of the rapists in most cases, see how the lawyer rips the lifestyle of the victim and in many cases is able to sway not only public opinion but the judge's decision. It is very common. Read how the society starts reprimanding the victim for her behavior and her choices and tell her how she is to blame for it. This is a major problem . You are laying the grounds of letting the accused think that , what I did was perhaps not my fault. A mother pointing to a dress, bascially is teaching the child to judge another human being through her point of reference - there lies the problem?

Originally posted by: charminggenie

Originally posted by: Forever-KA

We do that all the time. When people are being killed in another nation and its matter of life and death for families we come here and casually say well its their own fault. They created it. When some talk shows do not conform to our own view of the world we say well they are porkis. I mean who are we kidding here? Such atittude, such people are there among us. We do that all the time. Does this mean I get influnced by it and start hating Indians? No if I do that then I am to be blamed. anyway

Rape, like many human behaviors is a product of nature as well as nurture. Nurture does play a significant role in how people behave. The right nurture equips people with good thought process and the ability to make good decisions. Poor nurture makes people vulnerable to bad decisions, peer pressure and negative influences.

Obviously, there is no society or person (barring sociopaths/psychopaths) who would say that rape/sexual harassment is OK. However, society does have a tendency of unwittingly propagating myths and assumptions that collectively lead to rape culture. As a society we have responsibility to stop propagating these myths and put an end to it. Conservative values that women should dress modestly, never drink or smoke, save herself for marriage, be a homemaker, avoid company of men etc. subliminally create the notion that women who do not conform to these value are loose, immoral and inviting sexual advances. We need to emphasize that women do have freedom of choice, women come from diverse backgrounds in terms of values and each and every one should be treated with respect.

Obviously, this does not mean that people from conservative backgrounds do not respect women or have rapist tendencies. Not at all. All it means is that people are more vulnerable to negative influences from peers or media. They may act inappropriately because they don't know better.

Education and awareness through nurture is vital. This will not eliminate all rapes in society. But this can still make a difference by equipping people to make wiser decisions. Even one less instance of eve teasing is a big step.

One common cop out is for people to blame media and wash their hands of responsibility. Yes, media like movies and songs do perpetuate a sexist and chauvinistic culture. Many people are negatively influenced by it. However, media is a reflection of society. It is a work of fiction created by people. We need to focus on reality rather than fiction. The first step needs to be from parents, guardians, teachers to provide the right nurture. If society has a better outlook, media cannot reflect poorly on it. If people know better they won't propagate sexist fiction. If people know better they won't be influenced by sexist fiction. The focus should be on societal education not blaming media.

Originally posted by: charminggenie

I would have carried the discussion forward on this topic irrespective of how different both of us view it , had above comment was not made. I don't think the analogy has anything to do with this topic. By bringing this you have undermined the whole conversation. I am not naive enough to not know what you wanted to stir here, would advice you to take it up with the administration of DM.

First, lets not over act. lol. There is nothing to take up with administration of DM. I dont have to stir anything. I have that view and I will present that a thousand times over.

Now come to analogy i.e. if you really didnt get it. You said

judging and commenting about those who might not stick to your code of dressing , is also not right.

I said we do that all the time. There are people among us who comment about others who they dont like or are biased against and pass judgements without thinking, They judge character of your nation and call you names. In same manner that mother passed her opinion about a girl dressed in short skirts. I gave these two recent examples but this happens every day among all people. Now does that mean that we get trigger happy and take law in our own hand. In same manner one cannot hold such things responsible for rape. In the end its the flaw in preson that causes someone to rape. Just like it would be flaw in me if i started to go after these foolish acts

You gave me advice and you know I respect you as a good addition here. However next time I would appreciate if you dont pass such accusations without trying to understand the point. I dont need to stir people. I talk to them on their face. lol

But still a piece of advice , innocent young teens are raised by extremists in the name of religion/culture/nation hate, many do grow up with the skewed opinion but there is a sizable population which do take it up to an extreme level and are conditioned to kill. The bullet might be fired from that young lad's pistol but the ammunition was provided by the society he was raised in. Hence you cannot trivialize the influence and social environment. Rape is a crime and a social problem.

ForeverKA:
The point is that women's bodies are fetishized and objectified, and that's a part of rape culture (meaning it is systemic). This devalues and dehumanizes women. Patriarchal attitudes towards women's lives and towards sex promote this. Women can espouse these regressive attitudes as well as men can.

The truth is that women's bodies or clothing do not exist for the titillation of straight men, so we should be able to dress however we want - for practical reasons or for religious reasons, fashion reasons, etc. - without it being seen as vulgar, "asking for it," etc. and leading to judgment and harassment.

The argument being made is that judging a woman based on her clothes, or viewing her body parts as "naturally vulgar" (as consumed by the straight male gaze) is a part of rape culture. That's why we call it rape culture. Because rape isn't just caused by a "flaw" in a person, or due to a moment of poor judgment. Rape is systemically enabled through a set of cultural attitudes that diminish women's self-worth and autonomy. I grew up watching Hindi films where the woman is always asking for it, is routinely harassed and s**t-shamed ("disciplined" for being a "s**t") and this is portrayed as innocent flirting. Her consent is virtually non-existent, because she's not even shown to have sexual feelings of her own. That's rape culture. And it's sick.

Since you asked for something new, I couldn't resist.

Originally posted by: Forever-KA

1) The context of this topic is about family upbringing, parents being responsible for development of a rapist mind. It is not about rape culture.

2) I agree with lots of points here. However I do not see role of parents, family turning someone into a rapist. I just dont see that.

3) I don't think we should base an objective analysis as a neutral person based on what defence says. They are going to come up with illogical arguments to save a criminal. Wha matters is what the judge said. For example does anyone from a normal family tells their son that "girl is easy". I dont think that conversation takes place in families

In conclusion, I guess whats happening here is that you are mixing two issues. On one hand is general view where women who wear short skirts are seen as inviting others for rape. On the other hand we have a family finding same women as of low moral values. I think there is big difference between the tow.

In context of family its not about inviting, tintilating etc. Its just their opinion. This should not be part of rape culture. Still maybe I am not getting it so I dont want to drag it either. lol. You guys can perhaps discuss on.

Family upbringing is part of rape culture. Rape culture doesn't exist in a vacuum out there somewhere. It is part of intimate family life, and it is a part of desires, the way we think, and how we treat one another. It is normalized. Rape culture includes jokes, opinions, proverbs, you name it. And so yes, it's very common for us to think in this way. That's why it is so hard to get rid of rape culture, but it is possible.

Rape culture is not a defense against individual accountability for rape. However, it does give us some viable ways of preventing rape. That's the real goal.

Moralizing over a woman's chastity or honour is integrally linked to patriarchal attitudes about women's sexuality. Short skirts are given meaning in this context as s**tty, as immoral, inviting rape, etc. Without that ideology, a short skirt would just be a short skirt. It would be blue or green or red, not s**tty or immoral.

The part where you add "inviting" is stretching your argument and the part which makes all of your posts irrelevant to the context of this topic. That statement is true if you are talking about society but I dont believe that a family discusses theses issues as invitations let alone acting in a manner where they would encourage son turning into a rapist.If my mother thinks that wearing short skirts, drinking, partying late night is not good behavior then thats her view. I dont think it means I should consider them as inviting or easy. This is where you guys loose me. Stil stll..you can have your opinion.