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413342 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Who am I? The answer to this can be as simple as, I am me. A very succinct and finite answer, I am me, just me. Or we can delve deeper into the psychological, social, intellectual, biological, cultural and the plethora of identities we assume. I am a person, I am a human, I am Sarina, I am a viewbie on IF, I am a student, I am Indian, I am Hindu, I am south Asian, I am RTH, I am funny, I am sarcastic, I am an employee, I am a dog owner, I am and American citizen, I am a hick, I am a minority, I am a liberal, and so on. My IQ is X, my EQ is Y, My SAT score is Z, my income is A, my expenditure is B, my net worth is C, I am in D tax bracket, belonging to E class. I could flesh out who am I with most elaborate details , delving deeper and deeper. Some of my attributes will be ever shifting and changing. Some of my attributes will be hard to define or gauge. That makes who am I a very complex question. Do I really know who I am? What is my identity? Ultimately though, the combination of all these variable attributes, no matter through what evolution they have gone through, is simply me, uniquely me. Do I really need to know an answer beyond, I am me.

There is a problem. Who were you when you were a 1 year old girl? You rely on your parents to unravel the answer to that. Who are you in your old age and breathing your last (bless you!) after you lost consciousness? A third party would unravel the answer to that after probably consulting with a doctor. So, the point is, you know who you are ONLY when you have consciousness. Uniqueness? I doubt that. If I want to see uniqueness I could do that only if I get into your DNA. Even then, without lining up all the people who have lived in the past, all the people living now, all the people who would live in the future, I can't tell how unique your DNA is. At the outset, you look like a normal human being and in a crowd of a million, I can't tell you from the other. Point is, you are only unique at the DNA level (a quark in the case of an atom). The limitation now is I can't split a quark and I can't look beyond a DNA.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

What am I? This question is more definition related rather than identity related. I am a human being. I am a homo sapien. I am a carbon compound. I am made of muscles, bones, tissues, fat. I am made of cells. I am made of molecules.I am made of atoms. I am made of protons and neutrons and electrons. I am made of quarks. Baffling about this is broken down into our smallest particles, I am no different from a chair or table. We are all just structures put together by the same microscopic building blocks of this world. At what point did I become different? At what point did I become life? At what point did I gain consciousness? In what part does my life and consciousness reside? What truly separates the living from the non living.

Correct. You can't tell what separates you from the rest unless we adhere to the current scale at where we stand. At the quark level, we can't tell one from the other. At the universal level, we can't tell one from the other. So the question which I posed initially was, why are we stuck at this scale? Is that by design?

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Where am I? I am at my desk, at work, on the east side of Madison, Wisconsin, USA, North America, Earth, Sun solar system, Milky Way Galaxy, the universe. I have a street address, I have a pin pointed latitude and longitude. The question is where in the ever expanding universe am I. How do I fathom my location with the vastness that is existence? What are my co-ordinates within infinity? Is there just one existence, one plane of existence or many? How many worlds are there? Where am I in relation to those.

You were not there 100 years ago and you wouldn't be there 100 years later. If this were a DVD recording, I would have to pause at the right moment to locate you. In other words, I have to do a freeze-frame just to know that you really existed. Again a question of scale and atomocity. At the tiniest of the tiny time scale, you are there. Otherwise? Without replying to each and every line, I would say this in general. We are looking at this whole thing according to our convenience. What that says to me is, we defined a reality as per our convenience. It's the "it is there now and not there a split second later" reality that bothers me. I can't come to terms with that.
413342 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

^^ K, jab life ho oit of control hotthon ko ker key gol hotthin ko ker key gol seeti baja key bol All Izzz Well😆 Why so much anger inside you, bud? Apney karmon ka phal sab ko yaheen bhogna hai - chahey iss life mein ya phir kisi aur life mein. If suffering is not there then how would public know what happiness or well-being means? As far as wanting to make everyone happy - some are sadists. How could you make them happy without making others unhappy? You can't hold yourself responsible for blatant greed of a few out there. You can only control your actions and those, to a certain degree, who are near and dear to you. Like I said before, I am all about simplifying things for my sanity. For me, charity starts at home and so does raising good honest and caring citizens. That's my contribution to the world. If we all keep doing what we can do within our capacity - you'll be amazed how many lives we can still touch!

If I want, I could live happily for the rest of my life but I won't be able to respect myself for being so selfish. "karmon ka phal"? An accounting system of "sins" and "rewards" with absolutely no rulebook to guide us?Jesus Christ!!! Please don't do that. It's a whole new discussion altogether. 😆
200467 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

If I want, I could live happily for the rest of my life but I won't be able to respect myself for being so selfish.

I did tell you to keep doing your bit - did I not? You know very well you can't touch each and every human being out there no matter how hard you try, Just touching those that are in your bubble seems selfish to you. Frankly speaking, don't know what else to tell you then. Hope you have heard of that expression - boond boond sey bhartee gaagar. You do your bit, I do mine and together we can make this world a better place - how hard is this to get?

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

"karmon ka phal"? An accounting system of "sins" and "rewards" with absolutely no rulebook to guide us?

Why do we need a rule book for guidance? We all are, at least most of us are, blessed with an inbuilt system that lets us think and make choices. Why should we not eb responsible for our choices then? And why would we need a book to guide us when we have our gut feeling to guide us? Even if you think of ourselves as multiple units plugged to the same power source, i.e. consciousness like one plugs multiple gadgets to the same power chord - why can't we keep on functioning what we have been designed to function just like my T.V. or mixer functions? Does T.V. ask for a rule book before accepting the command from remote control operated by us? Why do you need the rule book then when you are wired to know what is right and what is wrong?

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

Jesus Christ!!! Please don't do that. It's a whole new discussion altogether. 😆

No, it is not. Karam-phal - the ledger of all our actions taken together - is a great rationale for why some face what they face. It is as interwined with our consciousness, the Force and the Universe as the later three are interwined with each other. Just worrying about others won't earn you any debit balance - assuming the Karamphal account's normal balance is a debit balance. You will have to act on your thoughts --- now, thoughts are belagaam. They can run helter skelter so you'll have to put a lagaam on them and start tackling things that are under your control. You touch 10 lives - reasonable enough number - right --- and mentor them into touching 10 each so on and so forth and before you know, you have indirectly touched so many lives out there! Your problem is you are selfish - you personally want to touch each and every one of that life out there that is in need - something that is just not doable.
Edited by Gauri_3 - 15 years ago
413342 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago

^^ Hopefully the above arrows point to Gauri's reply and not someone else's reply.

Gauri, your views are simplistic. I like them but they don't answer complex situations and scenarios.

I will try to give you an analogy. So this "great" guy puts me and a hundred other human beings along with a bunch of plants and animals in a house and locks the doors. There is no way we could get out even if we want to unless we die. He expects us to behave according to certain rules not known to anybody inside the house but, nevertheless, assumes moral authority on us and threatens us with dire consequences if we don't. The human beings inside the house assume that the guy who put them there is also a generous guy who will reward them for good actions but it is just an assumption which some people choose to believe and some don't. Say I am the fortunate (or unfortunate) one who lived longer than most. I see people fighting and killing each other, killing animals, forming groups, creating divisions, treating some as people as kings and some people as lepers and basically doing what they please depending on how strong physically and mentally they are. So I see a happy guy and assume that he must have done something good in his previous birth. I see a sad guy and assume that he must have done something bad in his previous birth. Again all assumptions

Two simple questions for a start:

What about the karmon ka phal of the guy on the outside? Who is judging him? Who gave him the authority to judge the people inside? Just because he has the power?

Based on what karmon ka phal did the outside "generous" guy put the 100 guys and plants and animals in the room in the first place?

Summer3 thumbnail
18th Anniversary Thumbnail Trailblazer Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 15 years ago
Generally I think it is quite difficult to do any kind of self enquiry if the mind runs around like a wild bull and the body is unable to sit still even for a second. Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi mentioned that the mind cannot exist on its own but subsists on something tangible. Mind is the basis for the individual soul and is the subtle body or the sukshma sarira and the jivatma. http://davidgodman.org/rteach/whoami1.shtml Question: What is the nature of the mind? "That which is called 'mind', which projects all thoughts, is an awesome power existing within the Self, one's real nature. If we discard all thoughts and look [to see what remains when there are no thoughts, it will be found that] there is no such entity as mind remaining separate [from those thoughts]. Therefore, thought itself is the nature of the mind. There is no such thing as 'the world' independent of thoughts. There are no thoughts in deep sleep, and there is no world. In waking and dream there are thoughts, and there is also the world. Just as a spider emits the thread of a web from within itself and withdraws it again into itself, in the same way the mind projects the world from within itself and later reabsorbs it into itself. When the mind emanates from the Self, the world appears. Consequently, when the world appears, the Self is not seen, and when the Self appears or shines, the world will not appear."

If one goes on examining the nature of the mind, it will finally be discovered that [what was taken to be] the mind is really only one's self. That which is called one's self is really Atman, one's real nature. The mind always depends for its existence on something tangible. It cannot subsist by itself. It is the mind that is called sukshma sarira [the subtle body] or jiva [the soul].

Question: What is the path of enquiry for understanding the nature of the mind? That which arises in the physical body as 'I' is the mind. If one enquires, 'In what place in the body does this ''I'' first arise?' it will be known to be in the hridayam. That is the birthplace of the mind. Even if one incessantly thinks 'I, I', it will lead to that place. Of all thoughts that arise in the mind, the thought 'I' is the first one. It is only after the rise of this [thought] that other thoughts arise. It is only after the first personal pronoun arises that the second and third personal pronouns appear. Without the first person, the second and third persons cannot exist. http://davidgodman.org/rteach/whoami1.shtml
Edited by Summer3 - 15 years ago
200467 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago

^^ Hopefully the above arrows point to Gauri's reply and not someone else's reply.

Gauri, your views are simplistic. I like them but they don't answer complex situations and scenarios.

[/quote]

I did tell you that I like to keep things simple for my own sanity, K. Additionally, how do you know that you are not making simple things overly complex?

I can simply tell you that 2+2=4.

Or I can tell you that [(2x+ 4)/2] = 4 and then ask you to solve for the x.

Now, to get the exact same answer - that is 4 - you have to go couple more steps to solve for the x. Your answer still remains the same. It is just the situation that you made overly complex. This is the major difference between your and my take on life😊



return_to_hades thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 15 years ago

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

There is a problem. Who were you when you were a 1 year old girl? You rely on your parents to unravel the answer to that. Who are you in your old age and breathing your last (bless you!) after you lost consciousness? A third party would unravel the answer to that after probably consulting with a doctor. So, the point is, you know who you are ONLY when you have consciousness. Uniqueness? I doubt that. If I want to see uniqueness I could do that only if I get into your DNA. Even then, without lining up all the people who have lived in the past, all the people living now, all the people who would live in the future, I can't tell how unique your DNA is. At the outset, you look like a normal human being and in a crowd of a million, I can't tell you from the other. Point is, you are only unique at the DNA level (a quark in the case of an atom). The limitation now is I can't split a quark and I can't look beyond a DNA.



What you say is based on an assumption that self identity is only within the conscious mind as we are aware of it. As Freud put it. Our conscious mind, our ego is only the tip of the iceberg. The subconscious, the vast part of our self, the ID and superego is in the subconscious mind. A part so deep and unfathomable that humans never plumb the depth.

Deep down within my consciousness, I am always me. Ever changing, ever evolving, but always me. Various factors, defining me, shaping me, molding be - but in all the change one is constant, I am me. Not just me uniquely me. There is no me but me.
200467 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

I will try to give you an analogy. So this "great" guy puts me and a hundred other human beings along with a bunch of plants and animals in a house and locks the doors. There is no way we could get out even if we want to unless we die. He expects us to behave according to certain rules not known to anybody inside the house but, nevertheless, assumes moral authority on us and threatens us with dire consequences if we don't. The human beings inside the house assume that the guy who put them there is also a generous guy who will reward them for good actions but it is just an assumption which some people choose to believe and some don't. Say I am the fortunate (or unfortunate) one who lived longer than most. I see people fighting and killing each other, killing animals, forming groups, creating divisions, treating some as people as kings and some people as lepers and basically doing what they please depending on how strong physically and mentally they are. So I see a happy guy and assume that he must have done something good in his previous birth. I see a sad guy and assume that he must have done something bad in his previous birth. Again all assumptions

[/quote]

The "great" guy - as you are calling the force here - gave you and each and every other human being locked inside that house a mind, a conscience and a will for you all to decide what course of action to take in a certain situation. Why should the "great" guy be responsible for whatever decisions y'all make for yourselves down the road.

You are equating karamphal with an interfering god. I feel the Force does not interfere in our lives at all. The Force set the things in motion and it lest them take their own course based on the decisions us humans take as the Force did bless us with a mind more evolved than any other living form on earth.

While you are busy looking for some scapegoat to blame for all yours and others' sufferings, I am busy taking full responsibility for my actions. You still need to figure out who you are because, at one level or the other, you are trying to rum from what you may think you really are. I see blaming the :"great" guy as escapism, which is not acceptable to me at all.


-Believe- thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Stunner Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 15 years ago
Actuly Who am I without others!!!!!!!!!!!!!😊
Edited by Believe - 15 years ago
413342 thumbnail
Posted: 15 years ago

Originally posted by: Summer3

Generally I think it is quite difficult to do any kind of self enquiry if the mind runs around like a wild bull and the body is unable to sit still even for a second.

This is probably the best quote I came across in recent times. I loved it. I will give your rest of the post a once over again, Summer. And then I will get back to you. Like I hinted once, you and me are "like poles". Not that we repel each other but we are pretty much into the same thing and I believe are on the same page as far as consciousness is concerned.

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