Classical music:Will India retain it - Page 3

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punjini thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#21

Originally posted by: Barnali

Sahana and Appa i agree to yur comments regd learning just srgmp continously for many years makes the whole process very boring. but isnt it a fact also tht for getting to this subject better yu need to actually do tht. i somehow feel it is needed too. my daughter is learning classical vocal and her guruji taught her just tht for full one and a half yr. And tht particular teaching is showing it;s fruit now. the fast rate at which she is picking up the raags is maybe due to tht only.

but yes maybe if it could be made interesting then definitely it would b better in the long run. because then many may actually come forward.






Barnali, the traditional method of learning is fine for those who are already motivated to learn - the serious listeners. Your daughter is in Bengal and already into the culture of music. But for those away from this culture, one cannot expect an automatic hooking into the intricacies of classical music. So we need a different way of initiation into this ancient music form for children/students outside the traditional milieu. Once the students develop a real interest, they can follow the traditional path. That's my opinion.
advil thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#22

Originally posted by: punjini


Barnali, the traditional method of learning is fine for those who are already motivated to learn - the serious listeners. Your daughter is in Bengal and already into the culture of music. But for those away from this culture, one cannot expect an automatic hooking into the intricacies of classical music. So we need a different way of initiation into this ancient music form for children/students outside the traditional milieu. Once the students develop a real interest, they can follow the traditional path. That's my opinion.

Sahanaji,

Are we talking about vocal or instrumental classical? For vocal, can there really be a short cut? I thought the riyaaz is a very essential part in honing up the vocal chords ,condition them to sing better.

As I was saying earlier, in western countries,probably due to the lack of time, the classes are held once a week and the program is pretty structured. The kids in fact are enjoying it..because I have seen a kiddo play the tabla in the pujas, and he started learning for about a few months earleir at the most. But on the other hand the vocal artists have been training forever and mind you , the improvement is showing from what these singers were doing a year back.

Edited by adi_0112 - 19 years ago
punjini thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#23

Originally posted by: soulsoup



Hey Salil - great! Now what needed to be done - upload or link to original raga and the movie song too. Also we need some experts help (Barnalidi, Sahana .....) how the transition (i.e. Suddha Swara part) happened! That will be a quite a deal! 😊



Anol, let me tell you, even the experts (I am not one) are highly divided about the ragas to which some film songs adhere. Recently, Abhi and I had a debate about the song "yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni" from Sangdil. The websites list this song under Darbari Raga.

But Pt Shiv Kumar Sharma, in a radio programme said it was Bhairavi when he played the song. I referred this to our family friend in Kolkata and he said it was "Bhairavi with streaks of Jogiya". God knows what Kishore Bhakta would say.

You will notice in www.asavari.org that many songs are listed under 2 ragas, which will add to the confusion.

I think the music directors take a lot of liberties with ragas. So only after several years of learning classical music, one would know which notes of a song are deviating from the set raga.

Sometimes I think the music directors must be absolute geniuses, to have taken the essence of a raga and transformed it into something else!
punjini thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#24

Originally posted by: adi_0112

Sahanaji,

Are we talking about vocal or instrumental classical? For vocal, can there really be a short cut? I thought the riyaaz is a very essential part in honing up the vocal chords ,condition them to sing better.

As I was saying earlier, in western countries,probably due to the lack of time, the classes are held once a week and the program is pretty structured. The kids in fact are enjoying it..because I have seen a kiddo play the tabla in the pujas, and he started learning for about a few months at the most. But on the other hand the vocal artists have been training forever and mind you , the improvement is showing from what these singers were doing a year back.



Adi, I am all for riyaaz. There is no short cut to riyaaz. What I am talking about is the initiation process into music for those who have no background or interest. The traditional "saregamapa" method will drive them away. Once the spark of interest is aroused, riyaaz will certainly follow.
rongmon thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#25
Great post and great discussion. I agree to most of the points by everyone here. The interest for classical music is dying very fast, specially in India. Still in western countries people have a high regard for the Indian classical music, with lots of people attend the concerts, listens with full attention and appreciates. But in India, slowly the tradition is dying out. Everybody is responsible for it. First is the media and TV, how much they cover about the life and traditions of the maestros of classical music, they are showed only as a symbol of Indian culture, only on some special occasions. Hritwik Roshan gave birth to a son, Ashwairya Rai had an accident, those became national head line, when the classical maestros expires, then also nobody knows about it. HR ji's breakfast menu is given more importance than Bismillah Khan's ailing health condition (no offence, but this is true).
Now every teaching, every learning is evaluated with monetary benefit. Parents send their children to learn classical music, so that they can participate in the reality shows in TV, not more than that. Previously many of the songs in the movies were based on Ragas, with great lyrics, now a days nobody dare to make music based on ragas, because they always think of marketing and financial benefits. It is not that all the songs should be raga based, but when we have such a rich culture and heritage, why blindly follow the MTV culture, with hip-hop remixes with lyrics like 24 7 I think of you.
punjini thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#26
This article by Shubha Mudgal had been posted on an earlier thread and I had saved it. Here it is again for those who have not read it.

Diverse strains

SHUBHA MUDGAL

CONTEMPORARY discussion and analysis of Indian music, and the challenges it faces in modern times, inevitably leads to the constant depressing refrain that with each passing day it continues to deteriorate and suffer in terms of quality and content. The consensus in most cases seems to be that old is sure to be gold and the new or contemporary must necessarily be deemed trash and dumped, if not bitterly criticized.

While scholars of Indian music have defined and written of several different categories of music in India, this attempted overview focuses primarily on art music or what is popularly known as classical music, folk and tribal music, and modern popular including film music, 'fusion' music and the more recent Indipop genre. Despite having stated these categories, it is virtually impossible to contain any music, least of all Indian music in such neatly labelled and organized categories, and hence there are constant spillovers. It is perhaps only in the shelves of music stores, or in the chapters of books on music that these categories remain clearly demarcated.

Elsewhere, in the actual practice of music, there is and has always been liberal give and take, borrowing, lending and adaptation. Sections of qawwali repertoire find their way into khayal repertoire aka the celebratory Bahar composition, 'Sakalban phool rahi sarson'. The thumri and dadra repertoire has generous doses of folk music; thumri diva Naina Devi often pointed out to disciples the influence of haveli sangeet (the music of the Krishna temples of the Vaishnava cult) on thumri.

Film music in India has from its early days generously helped itself to folk forms, usually without acknowledgement, a practice that continues to date. A recent instance of such a tendency is the unabashed incorporation of 'nimbuda nimbuda', a Rajasthani langa and manganiyar song, in a Bollywood blockbuster. Indipop, on the other hand, could as easily be renamed Punjabi pop since a majority of chartbusters combine Punjabi bhangra beats and melodies with hip-hop. More than ever before, mixing, matching, sharing, blending, adapting, fusing, collaborating and experimenting is the order of the day much to the chagrin of the purists and traditionalists who prefer to forget that the ability to adapt and absorb from diverse influences has always been a principal characteristic of Indian music.

This large-hearted quality of Indian music is amply evident not only in its changing and evolving form and repertoire, but even among its current practitioners who today range from hereditary musicians to first generation musicians such as myself, and even non-Indian scholars and performers. Today one need not belong to a family of musicians to be able to study music. Knowledge, that was once transmitted orally only to family members of hereditary musicians, is now available to any dedicated seeker at institutions that exclusively teach music as well as from other sources, a fact that was initially deplored by hereditary musicians who considered this unwelcome invasion from outsiders a threat to their identity and existence.

Over the years, this tension has dissolved and it is now common to hear a first-generation Indian musician perform in concert on the same platform as a gharanedar musician of blue-blooded musical lineage. Furthermore, scores of non-Indian students and musicians shuttle between India and their homes across the world to research and gain insight into Indian music. It may not be long before India decides to bestow honorifics such as Pandit and Ustad on sarodiyas such as Ken Zuckerman (Switzerland) and Adrian McNeill (Australia), or bansuri player Steve Gorne (USA)! The community of Indian musicians is therefore galloping in size, as is the geographical territory in which it is heard, practised and studied.

It is also worth mentioning that with the rapid growth in digital technology, there has emerged a new community of non-musicians who do not sing, play, write or perform music, and yet manage to make music through machinery and computerized gadgets. This breed of musicians is quite unique! Formally untrained in any musical system or discipline, whether Indian, Western, Asian or African, the computer-musician is unable to play a single note on any instrument but is adept at sampling one through machines. He then arranges a melody on the hard disk of his computer, which in turn offers him several options to choose from. He can fade in, fade out, tune an instrument, add a note, and edit another – all with a single click of his computer-mouse.



Editing facilities in recording studios can wipe away, without a trace, any unwanted tripping and faltering on the part of the musicians, leaving behind a perfect but altered performance. Even off-key passages or false notes can be corrected with the use of pitch correctors, so that you need not sing or play in tune any longer! You can speed up your taans, add a little huskiness to your tone, and much more – all with a little help from the magical machines! You can now add to the community of Indian musicians the recording artiste, whose live performance may not exactly match the skill and precision of his manipulated recorded performances.

With gadgets come new musical forms like Trance and the Asian Underground. Mixing of live and computer manipulated sound has resulted in some of the most commercially successful musical experiments that have catapulted Indian and Asian musicians to celebrity status. An Indian flavour pervades the international music market. Strains of the sitar, tabla, and alaap can be heard in the most unlikely of situations, from a Kubrik movie to a television commercial for mobile phones!

All seems well and Indian music seems to hold sway over the world. But, despite the steady rise in the popularity of Indian music, more and more societies are set up to promote and propagate India's arts, and experts sit with frowns on worried brows to work out strategies to save Indian music from imminent death. The vidwans claim that music is no longer what it used to be; that if western culture is not restrained and allowed to contaminate the purity and sanctity of Indian culture, we will lose the very foundation of our music.

And yet, every television channel in the country continues to do little to promote traditional music and the arts, while countdown shows flood the channels regularly with an unfailing monotony. Who sanctions these programmes if not the powers that be? Are we not being characteristically hypocritical and extreme in our attitudes? If the nation believes in preserving its rich cultural heritage and is proud of its artistic traditions, why is it so difficult to get patronage for classical and folk music? Why is there no single channel that caters to lovers of classical art music? If we can listen to a folk song in a blockbuster movie, why can we not give an occasional patient hearing to the original? Or do we only boast of our arts when we wish to glorify the antiquity of our great culture?

The truth probably lies somewhere in our midst, and reflects our own lip service and lack of sincerity. Perhaps it is in preserving and studying the past, as well as accepting the present with all its challenges that we would find a reasonable answer to these questions. Some things cannot be equated with commodities, and culture happens to be one of them. We are the proud inheritors of rich artistic traditions that have survived the ravages of time through sheer dint of being adaptable, liberal and open to varied influences.

The need of the hour would be to educate students and professionals to these aspects of the music business in addition to equipping them with musical knowledge. Many purists would argue that music making is in no way connected to the 'material' needs and consequently would hold that musicians need not worry themselves with such details. However, it is the practitioners who have to cope with these matters, which challenge their very existence much in the same way as it was challenged time and again due to changes in patronage.

The old and the new forms will continue to coexist as they have over generations, at times challenging each other and at others working in tandem. Some will die a natural death and others will continue to prosper and be further rejuvenated.
Morgoth thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#27
Barnali, can I quote you on this for another debate? 😳
Morgoth thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#28

Originally posted by: punjini

The problem with Indian classical music is that it is not taught in a way as to arouse interest in the subject. A child going to learn classical music will be made to learn saregamapadhanisa over and over again, and the child will soon lose interest unless the parents have other ways to keep the child motivated.

On the other hand, I am quite amazed at the courses available for children wanting to learn western classical music. The Yamaha music courses (started by the Japanese) are designed for children of various ages and classical music is taught in a totally fun way. Without even knowing it, children are initiated into the world of notes, beats and so on. This model can easily be replicated for Indian classical.

Music appreciation has to precede actual music learning. It is surprising that no one is coming forward with innovative ways to teach Indian classical music.

Agree!

Even adult beginner books make the learning experience fun. The first "song" I played was a very very simplified theme of Beethoven's Ode to Joy with one hand only.

I think the old-fashioned method of drilling scales, triads, etc. should be combined with teaching simple songs using the technique (there are plenty!)

As many others have already said, when kids like a song, they will learn it faster. Interest in something automatically brings the dedication.

It took me three years, but I learnt the first part of Fur Elise on my own - painful fingering and all. Because I learnt that piece, playing octaves and making big leaps all over the piano wasn't as hard for me as I went higher up.

musicbug thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#29
Fusion Music:

Collaboration between Indian and Western musicians, creating music incorporating elements of both cultures gave raise to a new genre of music, the Fusion music. Traditionalists in India frowned upon this and called it Hippie music. The trend started when Ravi Shankar first started playing alongside Western musicians like Yahudi Menuhin and Beatles. Several musicians have followed in the footsteps with varying degrees of commercial and critical success.

Ravi Shankar teamed with Yahudi Menuhin, starting with Menuhin Meets Shankar (1966) and played in other classical western orchestras like the Concerto for Sitar and Orchestra (1971) that he did with London Symphony Orchestra. His long association with Beatle lead guitarist George Harrison culminated with Concert For Bangladesh (1971). Recently he has collaborated with Philip Glass in Passage. Ravi Shankar has also done many experimental works like Transmigration Macabre (1973).

Also, many westerners studied Indian music and incorporate some elements into their own music. Many Jazz and Rock groups with Indian names sprung up. Mahavishnu Orchestra was one such, started by John McLaughlin in 1970s, incorporated Tabla by Badal Roy. When two versions of Mahavishnu Orchestra split up, he formed a new group Shakthi in 1975 with Zakir Hussain, T.H. VinayakaRam, Ramnad Raghavan and L Shankar. After three albums the group became defunct. In 1999 Shakthi regrouped for another tour, now with Hariprasad Chaurasia.

Brothers L. Shankar and L. Subramanium added the touch of Carnatic music to many fusion efforts. Shankar collaborated with several rock artists like Peter Gabriel , Jan Garbarek , David Byrne , Pete Towshend , John McLaughlin and Frank Zappa. He also worked with other Shakthi artists like Zakir Hussain and Vinayakaram to produce Pancha Nadai Pallavi (1981), Soul Searcher (1990) and Eternal Light (2000). L. Subramanium too has been at the forefront of Fusion Genre. He toured with Ravi Shankar and George Harrison in 1974 for the Bangladesh Tour. Garland (1978) was his first fusion album with several Jazz artists. He followed that up with Spanish Wave (1983) and Indian Express (1984) both of which got critical acclaim.

Zakir Hussain has been a permanent fixture in many of the fusion adventures. Apart from Shakthi, he has collaborated with several rock artists, symphony orchestras. He founded a percussion ensemble Zakir Hussain and the Rhythm experience in 1984. The band is still active and tours giving concerts. The core group consists of Zakir Hussain, his brother Faisal Khureshi, Vinayakaram and Dana Pandey (pakhavaj). Guest artists come from all parts of the world.

Vishwamohan Bhatt's collaboration started with Meeting By The River(1993) that he did with Ry Cooder, for which he won the Grammy, making him instantly famous. He later collaborated with Bela Fleck, Jerry Douglas and Taj Mahal. Saltanah (1997) he did with Simon Shaheen, who plays Arabian Audh, is an interesting album showing the similarities of Arabic classical music and Indian. All these efforts were produced by Kavi Alexander's Waterlily Accoustics. Kavi Alexander has also produced many other fusion albums featuring several other Indian musicians with musicians from other parts of the world. Indian musicians include Ronu Majumdar, Sangita Shankar, N. Ravikiran, Kadri Gopalnath, L. Subramanium and Viji Krishnan.

Source: http://www.musicalnirvana.com/introduction/post_independence 2.html#Fusion


Qwest thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#30

Great Post Barnali Di, Here is a quote from a living legend.!!!!!!!!!

Ravi Shankar has written in his autobiography:

"Our everyday life often, our music always, appears contradictory to the sophisticated eyes of the West. We do not hesitate to recognize in the sublime paradox, the ultimate, perhaps the eternal meaning of the serene, ordered, and happy world of sounds generated by gods and governed by men."

Thus, music is considered to be of divine origins; legend has it that the three divinities who preside over the Hindu pantheon, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, are themselves accomplished musicians, and that it was they who taught the great laws of musical expression to the first codifiers of Indian music. Ravi Shankar's description of his life as a disciple of spiritual music underscores this point. His practice would begin at 4:00 am. After two hours he would bathe and do his morning spiritual practice. Shankar stated that "total humility and surrender to the guru" were expected; "a complete shedding of the ego" was the goal. About the musical culture of India's ancients, Shankar says:

"There is no dearth of beautiful stories relating how great musicians and saint-musicians such as Baiju Bavare, Swami Haridas or Tan Sen performed miracles by singing certain ragas. It is said that some could light fires or the oil lamps by singing one raga, or bring rain, melt stones, causing flowers to blossom, and attract ferocious wild animals - even snakes and tigers - to a peaceful, quiet circle in a forest around a singing musician. To us in this modern, mechanical, materialistic age, all this seems like a collection of fables, but I sincerely believe that these stories are all true and that they were all feasible, especially when one considers that these great musicians were not just singers or performers, but also great yogis whose minds had complete control of their bodies. They knew all the secrets of tantra, hatha yoga, and different forms of occult power, and they were pure, ascetic, and saintly persons. That has been the wonderful tradition of our music."

Legends abound in the annals of India's music, attesting to the extraordinary prowess of India's devotional musicians. Indian music has always placed emphasis on vocal expression over instrumental. The best instrumental is thought to be that which renders most faithfully the subtleties of the human voice.


Edited by Qwest - 19 years ago

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