SRGMP-The End of the Innocence - Page 4

Originally posted by: qwertyasdfgh

If public had voted based on the mentometer debu would be out way before!!! The thing is the mento-meter is supposed to be a clue to the listeners about what experienced musicians have assessed. If our public votes like morons how it ever put these two in sync!!

yaar, we've been thru the mentometer garbage repeatedly. to put it kindly, they all had their "bias" at work ie. to strategically eliminate contestants from other gharanas. Game Theory!

"Coming to SRGMP, its a show about singing and the one who sings the best deserves to win. "

- good line, but does not even begin to answer why sgmp, either in its old or new format, could EVER be just about "singing" and not also about visual factors. whether u have judges or u have public voting. n if u have judges, who appoints them. the public? u? me? or some other "experienced" musician. and what is an experienced musician? an ivory tower-type character who does not know the first thing about making music that appeals but has gotten degrees in sur and taal.

the same points that u and almost everyone else raised in this forum are PRECISELY THE JUSTIFICATIONS USED BY DICATATORS TO USURP POWER- public is stupid.

at the heart of this thread is a refrain that the show has gone down. i am arguing the reverse.

Originally posted by: chatbuster

"Coming to SRGMP, its a show about singing and the one who sings the best deserves to win. "

- good line, but does not even begin to answer why sgmp, either in its old or new format, could EVER be just about "singing" and not also about visual factors. whether u have judges or u have public voting. n if u have judges, who appoints them. the public? u? me? or some other "experienced" musician. and what is an experienced musician? an ivory tower-type character who does not know the first thing about making music that appeals but has gotten degrees in sur and taal.

the same points that u and almost everyone else raised in this forum are PRECISELY THE JUSTIFICATIONS USED BY DICATATORS TO USURP POWER- public is stupid.

at the heart of this thread is a refrain that the show has gone down. i am arguing the reverse.

I am arguing the same !! I am trying to say that SRGMP hasn't lost its charm and I still think they ahve produced some good singers.

If they have visual factors, its just an added asset !!

Man, why the argument when we are talking the same thing ?!

Peace !

Originally posted by: chatbuster

[Disagree in important ways with such learned folks as yourselves😉

First thing you learn in a Public Speaking course is how delivery is far more important than content. In the case of music competitions which are "seen", not just "heard", the delivery is the visual factors, the content is the actual musical quality.

To somehow think that any show will be free of that bias is very naive. You can put a judge, and it's the same story. They will talk about "body language", "closing eyes", "facial expressions", comments we have already heard by various judges in this competition. Everyone, including judges or a listener in any communication, brings in their own bias. And some of these can be very subtle, where you feel as a judge that someone is good enough to get a green because their mother is such a great classical singer etc. Remember Jagjit praising Abhijeet to the skies, yet handing over the green flag to Hema without so much as a comment. And then later where an impression created the previous day lingered on to the next day.

So thinking you'll someow get "pure" musical talent from any of these shows, even the old sgmp, is stretching it. Sure you got Shreya n a few others out of those shows, but they had a rare combination of both visual and audio factors. Both these factors helped them win. Later, it was of course their professional acumen and actual playback-singing talents which helped them go further.

But like anything, if you give me a 100 winners from any competition, i will show you at least a few who ultimately make it. That result is a basic one from law of large numbers statistics, and has very little to do with the ability of a judge to go beyond visual factors.

To my mind, public voting is bad, but it is still better than the alternatives where a few individuals with strong beliefs and preferences and ego can sway the results.

I didn't ever claim to be learned. Don't know if you are being sarcastic?

Anyway, I do agree that where singers are being seen as well as heard, visual factors play a role, so the delivery is as important as content. But there has to be a balance between delivery and content. The judges should be briefed on how much weightage should be given to each. A proper form has to be given to the judges in which they fill in marks for various aspects of singing such as delivery, originality of voice, ability to sing lose to original song, sur, taal, breathing etc.

The judges need to attend a 7-day workshop to understand what judging is about.

About biases you are 100% right. Everyone has their own set of unique biases. I have mine and you have yours. The biases can be reduced only having a form in which judges have to think carefully before giving marks on each aspect of singing. Mind you, the judges should know that their marking will be made known to the public, so they just can't give arbitrary marks. The more the number of judges and the more different their backgrounds, lesser the biases.

Public voting is bad because the public has not been given a briefing on how to mark the singers. It is up to their whims and fancies.

as usual, we somehow expect some higher authority to solve our problems, in this case by appointing a judge. on that basis, why discount HR as a judge? he's learned in his own way. he makes stuff that the masses want (not that i like him or his music, but who am i?). shld the same masses have someone hand-picked for them by a judge that doesnt know what they want, because he is into his mathematical sur n tal calculations? that wld be like having a dictator forcing his choices down ur throat. fine if u like the choice, but bad if u dont.

n i've also heard so much parroting abt sur n taal. have u ever looked at a picasso. the imperfections is wat makes those picassos sell. the ultimate validation is how something appeals, not how it is fixed up

Originally posted by: punjini

I didn't ever claim to be learned. Don't know if you are being sarcastic?

Anyway, I do agree that where singers are being seen as well as heard, visual factors play a role, so the delivery is as important as content. But there has to be a balance between delivery and content. The judges should be briefed on how much weightage should be given to each. A proper form has to be given to the judges in which they fill in marks for various aspects of singing such as delivery, originality of voice, ability to sing lose to original song, sur, taal, breathing etc.

The judges need to attend a 7-day workshop to understand what judging is about.

About biases you are 100% right. Everyone has their own set of unique biases. I have mine and you have yours. The biases can be reduced only having a form in which judges have to think carefully before giving marks on each aspect of singing. Mind you, the judges should know that their marking will be made known to the public, so they just can't give arbitrary marks. The more the number of judges and the more different their backgrounds, lesser the biases.

Public voting is bad because the public has not been given a briefing on how to mark the singers. It is up to their whims and fancies.

according to professional research, upto 75% of how a speaker is perceived is based on visuals, not content. a judge in a music comp is also susceptible to it. the idea of somehow judging musical talent by adding up numbers on a form is like judging beauty by adding up the nose, eyes etc. Someone may have perfect nose/ eyes etc., yet may not appeal. Music is non-linear and irrational in that sense.

Originally posted by: chatbuster

as usual, we somehow expect some higher authority to solve our problems, in this case by appointing a judge. on that basis, why discount HR as a judge? he's learned in his own way. he makes stuff that the masses want (not that i like him or his music, but who am i?). shld the same masses have someone hand-picked for them by a judge that doesnt know what they want, because he is into his mathematical sur n tal calculations? that wld be like having a dictator forcing his choices down ur throat. fine if u like the choice, but bad if u dont.

n i've also heard so much parroting abt sur n taal. have u ever looked at a picasso. the imperfections is wat makes those picassos sell. the ultimate validation is how something appeals, not how it is fixed up

I am not discounting HR as a judge at all. Had he been given a briefing on how to judge, had he been given a format by which to do the marking, he would have been as good a judge as anyone else.

If the masses want to hand-pick the winner, programmes like Indian Idol are always there for them to go to. If SRGMP wants to be a cut above other programmes, it needs to raise the bar. There has to be a logical marking system in order that real talent is not sacrificed at the altar of whims and fancies.

You are right about something being appealing despite imperfections. For example, Paresh appealed to so many despite being technically flawed. Everyone liked him and wanted to see him perform whether he sang in sur or not. That's why I feel public voting cannot be done away with completely. Voting to bring back one or two contestants who have been eliminated by the judges might be the solution.

i would love some1 to write abt commericial aspect of the show..i mean economics! becoz, thats the major concept of the show. is it not?

please go thru this link..

http://in.rediff.com/movies/2006/feb/24mperi.htm

Originally posted by: qwertyasdfgh

This research must have been done in the USA where presentation is more important than the content..thats how things in the USA are overvalues. If you have the content just present it - it will always hit where it is supposed to. Lata and Rafi posed like statues even in their live performances and people never missed anything about them!!! so.. this study doesnt hold much water in countries which have traditions and cultures to value!!

it's more important almost everywhere. when is the last time u dated somebody who was physically unattractive to u but was beautiful inside. remember i said 75%, not 100%. And true abt Lata and Rafi, but that was in an era when people did not have too many choices. Now if u consider Shreya as the new-age version of one of these greats, which show in India will sell more- a Shreya show or a HR-type show?

fwiw, even a great song will flop if not packaged well. i thought the songs from kisna were super, but the movie let those songs down. the converse is also true. remember some of the "keeda-type" songs that Amitabh made memorable with his acting?

p.s. i am a huge Lata/ Rafi/ KK/ Asha fan. but i think some of the changes in music tastes we are seeing r inevitable. better to try n mold public opinion than fight it altogether

i have edited my post with a link, plz go thru it