Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan II

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Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 16 years ago

#651

It is possible for some to consider Ravan as a hero and not a typical villain. A lot of folk tales say that Ravan was bored of living and hence kidnapped Sita so that Ram would come to kill him. But as Vrisha said, I find this hard to believe. If Ravan wanted to get killed, why should he destroy his whole family? Ravan may have been a good king but he had his weaknesses the major one was women. Abducting women who belong to others was going too far and hence he was destroyed. Vibhishan on the other hand did something good for the people of Lanka. If not for Vibhishan no one knows what the state of Lanka would have been after the war. Since, Lord Ram had promised Lanka to Vibhishan, the people and their belongings were left untouched by his forces and it was only those who came to the battlefield who were destroyed. I don't know if Lord Ram would have spared or destroyed Lanka if he had not promised it to Vibhishan.

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#652

Originally posted by: Rajnish_Kumar
Vrisha congrats on your 2600👍🏼. I have read some where that few tribes of lanka and even in south India worship Ravana as their hero and even there are few temples of Ravana both in lanka and south India. here is description of one of the Ravana temple in Lanka. http://rama-rao-garimella.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/10/ravan-s-temple.htm I don't know whether they consider Ram as foreign invader. Regarding tribes worshiping Ravana i don't remember where i have read that but one's in this forum i had posted all the details, will try to search it and post it again over here.

Exit question: Who born first Ram or Hanuman. is there any details regarding that, i was just thinking no clue came in mind😆

Rajnish

Thanks - somehow, I didn't see this post yesterday when I responded to Vibs. I see you beat me to the question on the Ravan temples. Thanks for the congrats on 2600, and btw, belated b'day wishes.

On your exit question, I think Hanuman was born first. Rama's age at the time he met Hanuman was in his 30s, since his 11000/10000 year reign was a thing of the future. Hanuman's various adventures, otoh, seemed to much predate that - his attempt to devour the sun, the curse on him, et al. I don't know if Shabari appears in Valmiki, but it's said that she told him that he'd be meeting Rama after a while. In fact, even Sugriv's exile in Rishimukh long predated the birth of Rama, and Hanuman was one of Sugriv's loyalists who left w/ him. In the Ramanand Sagar serial, they show Shiva resolving to take birth on earth to serve Vishnu's avatar at the same time Vishnu made his commitment to the Devas, but I don't think that's historically credible - if Hanuman was contemporaneous to people who long predated Rama, then it's unbelievable that he'd be born during the same time frame as Rama. I think he was probably born in the same time frame as Vali and Sugriv, although I have nothing to back that theory up.

One thing - in Valmiki, only a few people - Vashistha, Agastya, Durvasa, Vishwamitra, were aware of Rama's divinity. There, was Hanuman among those?

Edited by Vrisha - 16 years ago

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#653

Originally posted by: Same108
Actually, regarding modern days Sri Lanka, as far as I know Vibhishan is considered a hero and fair king. I've heard paintings of Vibhishan decorate Parliament building or something like that.
Interesting, recently I too was checking Ramayana Tours website...
Here http://www.tourslanka.com/ramayana-sri-lanka/kelaniya-temple.php

That would be good. I hate the usual depiction in India itself of him being synonymous w/ a traitor. I once caught a bit of a movie where a crooked father & son accused the rebellious daughter of being a 'gharbedi Vibhishan'. The daughter had a great comeback - she stated that Vibhishans were necessary to counter evils like Ravan, which they unwittingly equated themselves to.

In Hindu mythology, Vibhishan is immortal, but I wonder whether the Lankan fans of Vibhishan view him that way, or have any account of his death? Also, do they have any history of his line of succession? Somewhat unrelated - is there anything about what sort of a ruler Angad was after the Mahaprayan, where Sugriv too left for Suryakund, and Angad was made king?

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rajnish kumar

@_rajnish_

Inactive

Posted: 16 years ago

#654

Thanks vrisha,
And about your question Hanuman knowing divinity of Ram, I think he does. there are many verses in Valmiki Ramayan which gives clue to this. few from sundar kand as hanuman speaks before Ravana the glories of Ram which gives cues that hanuman was aware of his divinity are follows-

"Who is capable even among celestials and demons, to withstand the arrows discharged by Lakshmana, in the wake of the fury of Rama?(5-51-19)

Here Hanuman is saying that even celestials and demons are not capable to confront the powerful weapon of lakshman discharged in the fury of Ram which clearly point out he did not consider them normal human being.

"O king! No one is known in the three worlds, who have gained happiness, by doing harm to Rama."( 5-51-21)

In this verse Hanuman says that in all three world which compromise whole universe none of the being be it ashur,devta,gandharva, divine sages could do any harm to him which also speaks of his divine status.

"The renowned Rama is capable of totally destroying all the worlds together with its five elements, along with its animate and inanimate things and also to create yet again all the worlds in like manner as before."(5-51-39)

The above verse speaks Ram as being one equal in all might to vishnu being creater and distroyer, furter through verse 5-51-40 to 5-51-45 hanuman directly reveals to Ravana that Ram is the ruler of three world and even brahma and mahesh is incapable to save any anyone who fight agaist Ram, this means Ram is no other then Vishnu. Here Hanuman directly reveals the divinity of Ram to Ravan.

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Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#655

Rajnish, Vrisha, and Vibs thanks 4 the write up. Vrisha congrats on 2600!

In Gurmi Ramayan, they showed Lakshman getting advise from Ravan just before he dies. Does this happen in Valmiki Ramayan?

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#656

No. In fact, you might want to check your Ananda Ramayan for this. It was also there in the ZTV serial Ravan.

Another new thing - in one of my videos of Vibhishan meeting Kumbhakarna, a poster said that Vibhishan left Ravan voluntarily because of his disgust at Ravan's misdeeds, and that the kicking out was not there in the original. I checked the Valmiki Ramayan 6:16 and it turns out - he wasn't. The worst that Ravan did was to state that he cursed him, and following that, Vibhishan lifted his mace, and w/ 4 of his followers, rose into the sky.

So where did the kicking of Vibhishan by Ravan come from? I too used to believe this - until yesterday.

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Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#657

Originally posted by: Vrisha
No. In fact, you might want to check your Ananda Ramayan for this. It was also there in the ZTV serial Ravan.

Another new thing - in one of my videos of Vibhishan meeting Kumbhakarna, a poster said that Vibhishan left Ravan voluntarily because of his disgust at Ravan's misdeeds, and that the kicking out was not there in the original. I checked the Valmiki Ramayan 6:16 and it turns out - he wasn't. The worst that Ravan did was to state that he cursed him, and following that, Vibhishan lifted his mace, and w/ 4 of his followers, rose into the sky.

So where did the kicking of Vibhishan by Ravan come from? I too used to believe this - until yesterday.

Oh, Vibhishan does not get kicked? I think I remember (vaguely and not totally sure) Vibhishan getting kicked in a tamil version. I need to check on this. I am getting lazy. I don't feel like pulling all those old books again. Where is Kal El or Ananya?

Edited by Khalrika - 16 years ago

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Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#658

I was thinking about this Vrisha and I am talking from an English Literature background. So, I cannot say if my opinion translates well into the Indian scenario.

From my experience in the literary field, when a work is dramatized then emotional scenes are always exaggerated for dramatic effect. All the great dramatists did this including Shakespeare. I am wondering if Sagars did the same thing because film is an extension of the stage. So, kicking Vibishan makes his humiliation more poignant and gets a more emotional response from the audience.

Ram going to off to vanvas was similar with Dashrath falling down the steps while running after Ram. This definitely made the emotions of that scene more poignant for the audience. Just my 2 cents!

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#659

Khalrika

That may be true, but I was talking not so much about the serial(s) (since both the serials had it), but about some books: a number of Ramayans that I did read did have Ravan kicking Vibhishan. For someone who boasted about his knowledge of the scriptures, he'd have known better than that. But the thing I was most curious about was - if it wasn't there in Valmiki, where did it originate?

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rajnish kumar

@_rajnish_

Inactive

Posted: 16 years ago

#660

Vrisha

This kicking originally comes in Adhyatma Ramayan then again in Ramcharitramanas.Read 6-3 of aadhyatma ramayan and Read Sundar kand ,chaupai 3^rd after doha 40 of Ramcharitramanas.

Edited by Rajnish_Kumar - 16 years ago

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Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan II - Page 66

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