Stories of Ravana from scriptures - Page 3

Thanks for the info akhl...

If you don't mind, can you also post information on these avatars...like what they did....and why they were born.......

In your post you posted that both Nar and Narayan were incarnations of Vishnu......

According to what I've heard, Narayan was not an incarnation, it was Lord Vishnu himself. He was in his usual form. Nar was the first human being...him along with Narayan started human life on earth through intense meditation.

As far as I know, Narayan is Lord Vishnu...and the person who comes to Earth as Nar is the same person who comes to earth as Arjun.....so....Arjun is an incarnation of Vishnu???

Also, wasn't Balram an avatar of Seshnag??? If he's considered to be an incarnation of Vishnu, shouldn't Lakshman be considered that also....

The Kumara Brothers.....weren't they the ones who gave the shrap to Jay and Vijay...If they were incarnations of Vishnu......then I guess the whole giving a shrap to them situation was a setup by Lord Vishnu????

Are you sure that the book you're reading mentions these people that I've mentioned as "incarnations"....or "avatars"...or does it only mention them as forms or relations to Vishnu......

Note, that the above statements are only questions and reflections on what I've herad....Don't think I am trying to challenge anything you wrote...Because I'm not. Don't get me wrong here. I just wanted to know how the scriptures that you've read contradict what I have heard. I have not read any scriptures, because I don't think they sell anything in the US, plus I can't really read Sanskrit, or Hindi, as a matter of fact. I have just 'heard' this information and some I have seen in Indian TV Shows I watch. Thus, what I know might not be 100% correct.

Also, if you could post the details on all the avatars that you mentioned, that would be appreciated. There are a few in the list that I have never heard of.

According to what I've heard, Narayan was not an incarnation, it was Lord Vishnu himself.
The word Narayan is used in two senses. One meaning is Vishnu. Another meaning is an incarnation of Vishnu called Narayan. Many people get confused over this. I also used to be confused earlier. But the confusion was over once I read Puranas.

As far as I know, Narayan is Lord Vishnu...and the person who comes to Earth as Nar is the same person who comes to earth as Arjun.....so....Arjun is an incarnation of Vishnu???
The word incarnation has two meanings in scriptures. One meaning is that Vishnu incarnated. Another meaning is that Vishnu gave power to some other soul for some particular purpose. Such an incarnation is called empowered incarnation. So, Arjun was an empowered incarnation of Nar and hence of Vishnu. Parashuram was also an empowered incarnation. If Parashuram was Vishnu, then how could he be defeated by Ram. How can Vishnu defeat Vishnu? Parashuram was given power for a particular purpose and a particular time. Lord Ram took away that power from him because Parashuram's job was over.

[quote]Also, wasn't Balram an avatar of Seshnag??? If he's considered to be an incarnation of Vishnu, shouldn't Lakshman be considered that also....[/quote]
Sheshnag is also an expansion of Vishnu. In that sense, Balaram was an incarnation of Vishnu. Yes, Laxman also can be considered as incarnation of Vishnu. In Valmiki Ramayan, all the four brothers are called incarnations of Vishnu.
Bhagavatam lists the incarnations I listed in an earlier post. But Bhagavatam also says that there are many more incarnations.

The Kumara Brothers.....weren't they the ones who gave the shrap to Jay and Vijay...If they were incarnations of Vishnu......then I guess the whole giving a shrap to them situation was a setup by Lord Vishnu????
Kumara brothers were also empowered incarnations. But, it is true that many scriptures consider the shrap as setup by Vishnu.

Are you sure that the book you're reading mentions these people that I've mentioned as "incarnations"....or "avatars"...or does it only mention them as forms or relations to Vishnu......
The books mention these as incarnations. However, as I said, there are different categories of incarnations

I have not read any scriptures, because I don't think they sell anything in the US, plus I can't really read Sanskrit, or Hindi, as a matter of fact.
I have read scriptures in detail. I know both Hindi and Sanskrit quite well. Many in India know Hindi. But very few know Sanskrit. I know Sanskrit quite well because I studied it a lot.

Also, if you could post the details on all the avatars that you mentioned, that would be appreciated. There are a few in the list that I have never heard of.
I will post. But let me know which incarnation I should describe first.

Note:- I have talked about empowered incarnation in very brief. What I have written may not give clear meaning of "empowered incarnation". I will start another thread in which I will explain various categories of incarnations of Vishnu.

According to what I've heard, Narayan was not an incarnation, it was Lord Vishnu himself.
The word Narayan is used in two senses. One meaning is Vishnu. Another meaning is an incarnation of Vishnu called Narayan. Many people get confused over this. I also used to be confused earlier. But the confusion was over once I read Puranas.

As far as I know, Narayan is Lord Vishnu...and the person who comes to Earth as Nar is the same person who comes to earth as Arjun.....so....Arjun is an incarnation of Vishnu???
The word incarnation has two meanings in scriptures. One meaning is that Vishnu incarnated. Another meaning is that Vishnu gave power to some other soul for some particular purpose. Such an incarnation is called empowered incarnation. So, Arjun was an empowered incarnation of Nar and hence of Vishnu. Parashuram was also an empowered incarnation. If Parashuram was Vishnu, then how could he be defeated by Ram. How can Vishnu defeat Vishnu? Parashuram was given power for a particular purpose and a particular time. Lord Ram took away that power from him because Parashuram's job was over.

[quote]Also, wasn't Balram an avatar of Seshnag??? If he's considered to be an incarnation of Vishnu, shouldn't Lakshman be considered that also....[/quote]
Sheshnag is also an expansion of Vishnu. In that sense, Balaram was an incarnation of Vishnu. Yes, Laxman also can be considered as incarnation of Vishnu. In Valmiki Ramayan, all the four brothers are called incarnations of Vishnu.
Bhagavatam lists the incarnations I listed in an earlier post. But Bhagavatam also says that there are many more incarnations.

The Kumara Brothers.....weren't they the ones who gave the shrap to Jay and Vijay...If they were incarnations of Vishnu......then I guess the whole giving a shrap to them situation was a setup by Lord Vishnu????
Kumara brothers were also empowered incarnations. But, it is true that many scriptures consider the shrap as setup by Vishnu.

Are you sure that the book you're reading mentions these people that I've mentioned as "incarnations"....or "avatars"...or does it only mention them as forms or relations to Vishnu......
The books mention these as incarnations. However, as I said, there are different categories of incarnations

I have not read any scriptures, because I don't think they sell anything in the US, plus I can't really read Sanskrit, or Hindi, as a matter of fact.
I have read scriptures in detail. I know both Hindi and Sanskrit quite well. Many in India know Hindi. But very few know Sanskrit. I know Sanskrit quite well because I studied it a lot.

Also, if you could post the details on all the avatars that you mentioned, that would be appreciated. There are a few in the list that I have never heard of.
I will post. But let me know which incarnation I should describe first.

Note:- I have talked about empowered incarnation in very brief. What I have written may not give clear meaning of "empowered incarnation". I will start another thread in which I will explain various categories of incarnations of Vishnu.

Ravan conquers Kuber
Kuber was Ravan's elder half-brother. Pleased by his austerities, Lord Brahma made him guardian of North direction and also lord of wealth. Actually the word Kuber is a post, which means lord of wealth. Earlier Kuber's name was Vaishravan. After he became lord of wealth, he came to be called as Kuber.
Kuber's father Vishrava suggested Kuber to live in Lanka because Lanka was vacant then. Kuber did the same and started ruling over Lanka. Celestial architect Vishvakarma made an aircraft called Pushpak for Kuber.

One day Kuber came to meet Vishrava by Pushpak. Kaikashi(Ravan's mother) pointed Pushpak to Ravan. She taunted Ravan a lot by saying that he had not done anything for which she could be proud of him. Ravan assured her to become greater than Kuber.

After this Ravan, Kubhkarn and Vibhishan got boons from Brahma.

Kuber loved Ravan, Kumbhkarn, Vibhishan and Chandranakha a lot. Initially Ravan was not ready to take Lanka from Kuber. But his grandfather and his uncles again and again prodded him to do so. They put hate in him against Kuber. Ravan asked Kuber to vacate Lanka. Kuber refused. After that Kuber asked Vishrava for his suggestion. Since Ravan was very powerful, therefore, Vishrava suggested Kuber to give Lanka to Ravan. Kuber gave Lanka to Ravan. Now, Ravan became the king of Lanka.

When Ravan was king of Lanka, he tormented rishis a lot. Kuber advised Ravan that he was not doing right thing. Ravan got angry. He attacked Kuber and forcibly took Pushpak from him.

Yup....I heard the Kuber story also.....then Kuber became a guard in heaven....and lives in Indralok ever since....

As far as the avatar thing goes, akhl, I think you should post information on all of them.......maybe brief, cause for avatars like Ram, Krishna...posting detailed information will take forever....

Although I know abt most of them, I think you should post all of them, for ppl who might not know a lot abt them....

Keep up the good work....

Also, another question, an empowered incarnation..its just a normal person.....that has been given power by vishnu rite........i guess a certain percentage of vishnu's qualities......

Because, if that's the meaning, then almost all the avatars are empowered....because Ram and Krishna were the only ones who had all the abilities of Vishnu....and was Vishnu in full consciousness....certain avatars like Parshuram....mostly had Vishnu's strength (maybe a portion of it) while others like Buddha had mostly Vishnu's mental power....

I guess the avatars are born with only the abilities that are needed in the given situation....Parshuram needed to kill arrogant kshatriyas, so he was born with strength...and because he didn't have that much of vishnu's mental power....he later became arrogant himself...

Buddha really only needed the mental power....because he was born to change ppl's mindsets....he never really had to fight anyone...

Yes, you are right about the meaning of empowered incarnation. It is true that most of incarnations are empowered. But, other than Ram and Krishn also, there were some incarnations which were actual i.e. Vishnu Himself. Example:- Nrismha (also called Narasimha). It is written in Brahm-Vaivart Puran which incarnations are empowered and which are Vishnu.

It is said that his form as Krishna was the closest to his real self. All others incarnations were there to evoke "Dharma" in people. And the incarnation Ram is considered the perfect human as he never used any of his powers for self interest. Instead allowed himself to undergo trial and trial to give inspiration to people.

To be more accurate not only Krishna but some other incarnations like Rama, Nrismha were also complete. It is just that in Krishna incarnation he used more of potency than in other incarnations. In other incarnations, in spite of having potency, he did not use them much because it was not needed.

Thanks akhl and islandboy for your wonderful info