Penny settled for Leonard - Page 3

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

I’m not sure if this clip will convince you of Lenny’s love story or if it will just reiterate your original opinion of them smiley36. I think I always saw her falling for him as her genuinely falling for him and not just him wearing her out.

Maybe there is more to why Penny chooses Leonard. But it doesn't do it for me. IDK why, I just don't care for them like maybe Eleanor and Chidi (The good place) or Amy and Jonah (Superstore) or Sue Heck and Sean Donahue (the Middle).

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

Now about Friends, I disagree that Ross and Rachel were broken up when he slept with Chloe. If I remember correctly during their fight Rachel actually says they should take a break and not they should break up. The first one implies just giving each other some space, not that each is single.

A break from a relationship means you stop being a couple and become two individuals. If during this period of giving each other space, you expect sexual fidelity then it must be so stipulated. They were on a break. They were essentially single. No one laid any ground rules. It is not cheating.

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

Mark was definitely interested in Rachel. But as Monica told Ross, it doesn’t matter what Mark wants because Rachel will never give it to him and Ross should have trusted her. But Ross started questioning Mark’s motives from the moment he heard about his exchange with Rachel at the diner. Not just that but he was against Rachel working there, in proximity to Mark, from the get go. Yes a lot of that stemmed from his own insecurities. But being insecure is not an excuse for being a misogynist and a control freak.

Rachel refuses to believe Ross. She refuses to acknowledge Mark is interested in her. Ross was absolutely right in questioning Mark's motives from the start. From all, we know Mark could have turned out to be a creep who expected quid pro quo for giving a random girl a job. I am surprised Monica and Phoebe didn't say 'be careful'.

Ross is 100% wrong in how he acts. But some acknowledgment and reassurance from partners is needed in relationships. You have to validate people's feelings. Rachel completely dismissed Ross for something he turned out to be right about.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Maybe there is more to why Penny chooses Leonard. But it doesn't do it for me. IDK why, I just don't care for them like maybe Eleanor and Chidi (The good place) or Amy and Jonah (Superstore) or Sue Heck and Sean Donahue (the Middle).

A break from a relationship means you stop being a couple and become two individuals. If during this period of giving each other space, you expect sexual fidelity then it must be so stipulated. They were on a break. They were essentially single. No one laid any ground rules. It is not cheating.

Rachel refuses to believe Ross. She refuses to acknowledge Mark is interested in her. Ross was absolutely right in questioning Mark's motives from the start. From all, we know Mark could have turned out to be a creep who expected quid pro quo for giving a random girl a job. I am surprised Monica and Phoebe didn't say 'be careful'.

Ross is 100% wrong in how he acts. But some acknowledgment and reassurance from partners is needed in relationships. You have to validate people's feelings. Rachel completely dismissed Ross for something he turned out to be right about.

I completely get what you are saying about Rachel and even Ross’ suspicions of Mark. I think I’ll always be one of those who severely dislikes the character of Ross Gellar.

This was a fun discussion though. In the spirit of healthy debate, what are your thoughts on Monica? I find her better than her brother, but that’s about it. The only aspect of her that the show acknowledges is that she’s highly neurotic. But I also feel she can be toxic at times specially in her marriage. Definitely emasculating with Chandler. Yet she wasn’t any of these things with Richard.

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

I completely get what you are saying about Rachel and even Ross’ suspicions of Mark. I think I’ll always be one of those who severely dislikes the character of Ross Gellar.

You are not alone. There definitely is a significant group of people who hate Ross.

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

This was a fun discussion though. In the spirit of healthy debate, what are your thoughts on Monica? I find her better than her brother, but that’s about it. The only aspect of her that the show acknowledges is that she’s highly neurotic. But I also feel she can be toxic at times specially in her marriage. Definitely emasculating with Chandler. Yet she wasn’t any of these things with Richard.

I personally don't like the word "emasculating." I don't think it is possible to take away one's sense of manhood or masculinity. The notion that masculinity can be taken away leads to toxic hypermasculine behaviors and bullying of men who don't conform to societal notions of masculinity.

I see it more as domineering, controlling, and not having empathy for the other person's needs and perspectives. She behaved that way with Phoebe and Rachel too, although Phoebe could stand her ground more than Rachel. Monica railroaded a lot of people with her controlling behavior.

I think she wasn't that way with Richard because she saw him as older, more sophisticated, and more mature. Chandler (and the gang) were seen as peers who needed her prodding.

Both Monica and Ross had some terrible traits in common.

- They both wanted marriage, family, and kids and judge their self-worth by their ability to have that. Ross wouldn't be so insecure or Monica so desperate if they didn't tie their self-worth so much to such traditional outdated notions.

- They were both hyper-competitive and hyper-argumentative. It's almost as if they grew up pitted against each other fighting for love and attention.

- They both are needy. They crave approval from people. Sometimes doing absurd things for people to like them.

I stick by my theory that Jack and Judy were bad parents. When Ross says Emily's name - Judy said "this is worse when he married the lesbian" as if Ross had made a personal mistake by marrying Carol. When Jack and Judy find out Ross smoked pot, they immediately turn on him and praise Chandler. Ross and Monica cannot transparently share their downs with their parents and get nurturing support. They're made to feel bad about certain aspects of themselves - Monica for being obese, Ross for being a nerd who loves dinosaurs. We also learn in an episode that Judy's mom was the same way. Lots of generational trauma there that explains why Ross and Monica could be so shitty at times.

And while Friends never called it out explicitly - Ross, Monica, and Rachel express the stereotypes and struggles of the Jewish diaspora in USA. Rachel is the Jewish American Princess. Ross and Monica depict the unhealthy relationships Jewish kids have with their parents (Howard and his mom are another extreme example.) All three producers are Jewish and drew on their experiences with these characters.

--

I love diving deeper into shows like this. Back in the day BWF had more deeper discussions on movies too which I miss.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

You are not alone. There definitely is a significant group of people who hate Ross.

I personally don't like the word "emasculating." I don't think it is possible to take away one's sense of manhood or masculinity. The notion that masculinity can be taken away leads to toxic hypermasculine behaviors and bullying of men who don't conform to societal notions of masculinity.

I see it more as domineering, controlling, and not having empathy for the other person's needs and perspectives. She behaved that way with Phoebe and Rachel too, although Phoebe could stand her ground more than Rachel. Monica railroaded a lot of people with her controlling behavior.

I think she wasn't that way with Richard because she saw him as older, more sophisticated, and more mature. Chandler (and the gang) were seen as peers who needed her prodding.

Both Monica and Ross had some terrible traits in common.

- They both wanted marriage, family, and kids and judge their self-worth by their ability to have that. Ross wouldn't be so insecure or Monica so desperate if they didn't tie their self-worth so much to such traditional outdated notions.

- They were both hyper-competitive and hyper-argumentative. It's almost as if they grew up pitted against each other fighting for love and attention.

- They both are needy. They crave approval from people. Sometimes doing absurd things for people to like them.

I stick by my theory that Jack and Judy were bad parents. When Ross says Emily's name - Judy said "this is worse when he married the lesbian" as if Ross had made a personal mistake by marrying Carol. When Jack and Judy find out Ross smoked pot, they immediately turn on him and praise Chandler. Ross and Monica cannot transparently share their downs with their parents and get nurturing support. They're made to feel bad about certain aspects of themselves - Monica for being obese, Ross for being a nerd who loves dinosaurs. We also learn in an episode that Judy's mom was the same way. Lots of generational trauma there that explains why Ross and Monica could be so shitty at times.

And while Friends never called it out explicitly - Ross, Monica, and Rachel express the stereotypes and struggles of the Jewish diaspora in USA. Rachel is the Jewish American Princess. Ross and Monica depict the unhealthy relationships Jewish kids have with their parents (Howard and his mom are another extreme example.) All three producers are Jewish and drew on their experiences with these characters.

--

I love diving deeper into shows like this. Back in the day BWF had more deeper discussions on movies too which I miss.

@Bold: That’s a very valid point you made.

Wow! I agree with everything you said about Monica. Her issues with her parents was discussed throughout the show. Not just that Ross was favored but how she was body shamed, criticized, made to feel that she won’t amount to anything. At times it bordered on emotional abuse. Very early on in the show she tells Ross something along the lines of how in the next life she wants his parents.

Jack and Judy were horrible parents, to Monica. I don’t know if there ever were any story arcs or even scenes that showed them being dismissive of Ross or belittling him. Certainly not to the degree that they were with Monica. He was always said to have been the favorite, the golden child. I guess that explains how he developed all his misogynistic tendencies and his toxic traits. Just an observation, not an excuse for all of his dick moves throughout the years.

I wonder if the writers consciously wrote these characters the way they were or if they just wanted the comedic aspects, and then their flaws became the byproduct of the jokes? Know what I mean? Because the show also had Chandler who was insecure and neurotic in other ways. His issues with his parents were discussed more blatantly, for lack of a better word, though less frequently. In some ways it makes sense that he and Monica end up together, but not in a good way. More in a these two are enabling the worst traits of each other and need long term therapy way.

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

Jack and Judy were horrible parents, to Monica. I don’t know if there ever were any story arcs or even scenes that showed them being dismissive of Ross or belittling him. Certainly not to the degree that they were with Monica. He was always said to have been the favorite, the golden child. I guess that explains how he developed all his misogynistic tendencies and his toxic traits. Just an observation, not an excuse for all of his dick moves throughout the years.

I don't think it was as explicitly explored. But Ross clearly couldn't share his life challenges with his parents openly. He also confesses to Sandy how he was told to 'be a man.' Any little boy who voluntarily wore his mom's clothes to host tea parties but grew up to despise men displaying so-called feminine traits probably faced some form of emotional or physical abuse to change his behavior.

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

I wonder if the writers consciously wrote these characters the way they were or if they just wanted the comedic aspects, and then their flaws became the byproduct of the jokes? Know what I mean?

That's a tough question. A little bit of both?

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

Because the show also had Chandler who was insecure and neurotic in other ways. His issues with his parents were discussed more blatantly, for lack of a better word, though less frequently. In some ways it makes sense that he and Monica end up together, but not in a good way. More in a these two are enabling the worst traits of each other and need long term therapy way.

I think Chandler and Monica getting together was two insecure people with issues enabling each other. But their relationship did work. Chandler didn't mind Monica being domineering. He was a man-child who grew up neglected. He benefitted from Monica being hard on him. He was able to shed his commitment and responsibility phobia and become a responsible husband and future father. He was able to quit a job that he hated and find a more fulfilling job. Monica was able to thrive professionally because she had a husband who didn't have a big ego - he understood why he wouldn't follow her to Tulsa, he was comfortable with her being the sole breadwinner. Maybe Chandler grew more and they could have done with therapy. Both Geller siblings are lucky.

call me crazy but i always wanted to see penny and sheldon falling for each other and then becoming endgame!

I've been thinking about this topic a lot. After re-watching the engagement and marriage episodes lately, I really feel that Leonard and Penny were a bad fit.

- Wil Wheaton is able to easily break up the relationship because Leonard and Penny are clearly not in the same place

- Penny doesn't start pining for Leonard until he's in a relationship with Priya

- Penny doesn't have any significant compatible and positive long-term relationship like Priya for Leonard

- Penny doesn't say "I love you" unless it's a jealousy-induced spat when Alex hits on Leonard

- Penny's marriage proposal also comes after the lowest low of her acting career being fired from a trashy b grade film production, it seems like a knee-jerk reaction of being scared rather than in love. She rebounded from career failure to engagement If she had proposed when she was in a happy and self-content place in life it would have felt genuine.

- Penny is content never setting a date or moving forward with marriage

- The marriage takes place mostly due to Sheldon's egging and pointing out that their relationship isn't moving forward

- They barely have anything in common other than their friend circle. It is a running joke all their friends make that they have nothing in common.

- Their entire friend circle perceives the relationship as a result of Leonard's persistence rather than chemistry.

- All the other couples get wonderful moments of growth and showing up for each other but Leonard and Penny seem static (Penny and Sheldon actually have a lot more growth and meaningful moments compared to Penny and Leonard which is the main relationship)

- Amy and Bernadette often gush about their significant others during girl's hangouts, Penny seems indifferent to Leonard during these

- Penny is often mean to Leonard and in one episode where he's writing a novel Penny is written very similar to his mother - a cold unloving ball buster

I guess Penny and Leonard both settled for each other.

Penny chose Leonard because he was stable and dependable. But Penny never was with someone else who was dependable and not dumb. It presents a false dichotomy that you can either have romance and chemistry or stability but not both. She would have been happier with someone she had more in common with and could grow together with.

Leonard was blindly smitten by Penny and never really got over it. He often reduced himself to a whiny sniveling simp for her. He gets overly insecure about his nerdiness and then overcompensates by flaunting that he wooed Penny. He actually was the most socially well-adjusted of the four nerds and had women genuinely interested in him. He too would be happier with someone who he had more in common with.

Ross and Rachel for all their toxicity had more compatibility and genuine interest in each other.