Sunny and Raghav: Converging and Diverging - Page 6

Originally posted by: _symphony

I think Raghav is very different from Sunny. Because Sandy started to show that Raghav considers women as golddiggers which was actually true for women like the one who came initially and tried to hook up with him for money but it stopped there and then. I thought Raghav too like every other ITV ML will be shown having hatred towards women because of a past rship but that never happened. They corrected it v soon and after episode 7-8 i never heard Raghav say any general MCP stuff against women. And that’s actually very justified considering he only has a mother and a sister as family. He did some really mean things to Pallavi but that’s because he considered her an equally capable enemy. He always respected Sharda and all other women in Pallavi’s house. Even he behaved nicely with Amruta. I never ever heard Raghav say that Pallavi should remain in her limits coz she is a girl. He always praised her for her guts and enjoyed messing with her. Her capability NEVER made Raghav feel any less of a man but provoked and intimidated him more to be a better competitor. Whereas Sunny sweared in front of Amma at their first meeting itself. It irritates Sunny if Pallavi tries to have an opinion. He thinks women shouldn’t have an opinion.

About staff, Raghav was always straight forward and bossy to his staff but never insulted them. Never used the word ‘aukad’ with them.

Also Raghav is v straight forward. He says what he means. He doesn’t manipulate people like Sunny manipulated Keerti and Raghav both.

Raghav has temper issues but he doesn’t demean people unnecessarily.

Yeah, they're both very different in my opinion as well. They have surface level similarities- rudeness and anger management are most explicit, which is emphasised time and again in the show itself. And if we look at Raghav's earliest character sketch, then even misogyny and mistreatment of staff, though the levels vary, and exactly like you say, they dropped the MCP trait in Raghav very, very early, for the betterment of the show IMO.

But digging deeper, the convergence ends there for me, and that's why I really wanted to deep dive into these characters.

Originally posted by: aye-masakalii

Yeah, I think up until a week ago, they kept us on edge with him. Gave him both good and bad traits. But this week, yikes. The comments have been pretty repulsive, towards both Pallavi and Kirti. Today's hoor ki pari line and vidhwa gareeb line had me all 🤢

But I'm still keen to see where they take this plot!

Makers have been very unpredictable with concern to characters....

We have seen a dabang woman like Sharda gone spineless...

Sensible Keerthi became a nibbi...

Bubbly Mansi became jealous freak / aasteen ka sanp

Nibbi Amrutha is becoming positive...

Only Krishna and Farhad are constant coz they are one- dimension characters...

Pallavi and Raghav are growing each day...

So it will be interesting to watch if sunny will redeem or change after stating such statements coz the actor said he is positive character....

I rem I was worried after Raghav maligning Pallavi's character, after this how they are going to redeem his character, but they did a great job there...

So am all attentive 👍🏼

Originally posted by: Diya2021

Beautiful post Ashi. I love the comparisons you have put forward between Raghav and Sunny. My fondness of Raghav’s character has always been that even though he is flawed, they keep trying to redeem him which makes him so close to real. yes maybe he is the hero of the show and they had to do it. There has been many shows where ML can just carry on with whatever atrocities he has done and wipe it out with all the romantic sequences but here they have made it a point that he goes through the redemption. I won’t mind if Sunny does the same as long as they have a strong justification for his behaviour. The main difference until now of why I don’t like the comparison between Raghav and Sunny nor can I see them as same is what you said , quoted below.

For Raghav, it was directed at his enemy, the person responsible for miseries that have befallen the people he loves. For Sunny, he directed this at his girlfriend who he claims to love, who loves him back unconditionally. That's where things get scary for me to watch, because women married to men like him, who dole out abuse under the guise of love, have a tendency to end up battered or dead.

But like I wrote on the other post, I feel the writers are pushing his MCP to a level where even if he changes in future, it would be so difficult to accept him. Today’s comment on Pallavi was so cheap. It’s for Lion knowledge but they can’t make him downright talk so bad about a woman and then plan to continue his romanticism with Kirti. And he is now shown to be wanting to keep Kirti on the leash as well just because she is a woman. Pallavi has every right to be concerned about Kirti marrying such a person. Raghav may have misbehaved with Pallavi but never crossed her limits. Even if we talk about how he behaved with the girl in the car in the beginning, he made it clear at the start that he wasn’t a person who is into commitments nor did he misbehave with Anjali. He flirted with her but Anjali crossed the limits and he made it a point to teach her a lesson RR way. Raghav has a back story about females but still they toned him down. Sunny better have a very strong story to say otherwise it’s going to be very difficult to accept him if he changes. After the way he shouted at Kirti today, in real life this type of men rarely change and the fact that Kirti covered him up in front of Pallavi shows how weak Kirti is in front of him. All she might do is cover up for his mistakes but for how long. Now since Pallavi has given him 2 months I’m thinking maybe they are planning on Sunny’s redemption and it better be good.

The part you highlighted in bold has been the biggest, standout difference to me as well, which is why recent discussions on why we can accept Raghav but not Sunny have been niggling at me, and why I really wanted to deep dive into both men's psyche here. While surface level flaws are very similar, overall, Raghav fairs better on more metrics from my perspective.

@red- yes, I've always maintained this, the best thing this show has done is allowing Raghav to go through a proper redemption, and not just bypass it for the sake of romance.

@blue- I think we'll disagree here though, I do think Raghav crossed limits- pole scene, truck scene, and the infamous night. Yes, he's regretted, and apologized but we shouldn't whitewash his past actions because of that.

I said on a different post, in real life, no woman should ever give even a second glance to people like Sunny or Raghav, because 99.99% of abusers don't change. This show, however, has done a fabulous job of convincing us that Raghav is, indeed, part of the 0.01% who can.

Originally posted by: Haal-e-Dil

Also like others said, whatever Raghav did with Pallo wasn't heightened by or affected by pallo being a woman. She was an enemy who he was out to destroy, gender didn't matter until he used to it to defame her in front of her in laws.

Yes! This was the first major distinction for me as well- he had issues with her because of who she was, not because she was a woman.

I love this post Ashi! 👏 (Tell me I got the name correct 😉)

Sunny was growing to be such an interesting character, especially bcz of how similar he was to Raghav. I was waiting to see them clash, and I was esp looking forward to how amma and Pallu react to him. Would they give him a pass and see his potential to be a better man, like they see with Raghav? Will Raghav give him that chance instead, bcz he knows how it feels to be judged based on outward behaviour? I also liked the dynamics between Sunny and Pallavi, it was like a begrudging relationship being formed. He did respect her, and she was starting to see him as a better person. I was hoping to see that bond develop. His first misogynistic comment for Keerti came as a total letdown, and since then, his character went for a toss His behaviour with Pallavi changed completely Honestly, I wish they used some other way to introduce Lion, and Sunny could be a helping hand for Raghvi, just like he was in the jewelry case. I wanted them to start seeing him in a new light. And I wanted him to see and appreciate it, and finally start believing in family and relationships again. It could've been so beautifully done, but they just deliberately ruined his character And Keerti's along with it! 😡

I loved your whole post, but this part is the most perfect 💯💯

Atrocious, unforgivable behaviour by both, but what's telling to me, personally, is who they directed their behaviour at? For Raghav, it was directed at his enemy, the person responsible for miseries that have befallen the people he loves. For Sunny, he directed this at his girlfriend who he claims to love, who loves him back unconditionally.

Originally posted by: aye-masakalii

Lol, I just think she was a simple hook up/one night stand. Why would he need to hire someone, with the way women were willing to throw themselves at him?

Uss bandi mein toh koi self respect thi hi nahi. Yeh bakwaas kiye jaa raha tha, and she was just gushing over that. No wonder he had issues with women if these were the kind he was used to. He kicked her out because she was crossing those limits of attachment, with all those comments about the sindoor he bought etc.

Anjali waala toh saara plot, beginning to end, I found hilarious, so I'll not comment.

I think it was all done to also show the kind of girls he hangs out with vs Pallavi

That's what set the initial attraction. She was never there for his money, was strong-willed and never bowed down to him. He always admired Pallavi.

That's why I feel the initial lines were the only instance when he said something related to her gender. I will say it was done to show he was angry, drunk, and spewing venom on the girl to drag her down and show her the place rather than being a general misogynist. (Also as Anika said drunk RR never to be taken seriously) 🤣

Cause later on we have seen many instances when RR has never questioned her or judged her based on her gender.

Originally posted by: MistyDawn

That IS a thesis Ashi, very detailed and very accurate, beautifully articulated as always and it goes without saying that I completely agree with everything..

I will loosely touch upon the points you raised and try and keep it short..

1. I don't think Raghav was ever portrayed as a misogynist...His views about women in general were not something you'd associate with misogyny. He was an MCP but only with Pallavi and that was more personal than gender related.. The scene where he carried an unconscious Pallavi back to RR mansion he said that women are the ones who actually rule/run this world.. I can't imagine Sunny saying that ever in his senses or otherwise..

2. Raghav is badtameez sure..but hypothetically speaking if his staff, including Harish who he slapped, Farhad who he talks to very rudely a lot of times(that I despise), Rama or Shri..are asked to rate Raghav as a boss or a human being in general., I can guarantee they will rate him very high in both departments.. Harish and Farhad, his closest allies, both are fiercely loyal to him, defend him behind his back..Anna aise nahi hai, achhe insaan hai etc etc they said all that to Pallavi..even Rama when he explained why he tolerates Raghav's badtameezi..why? Loyalty can not be bought.. It is because despite of how he treats them when his fuse is off, they know deep down he cares for them, will stand by them when in need, values their work.. I can never imagine the staff be loyal or speak so highly of their boss, if Sunny was their boss... because has a strong prejudice for the weak and downtrodden..he believes in hierarchy.. naukar and malik ka status quo bane rehna chahiye..

3. Lastly, and this is important and lil complicated..there is a marked difference between the way Raghav and Sunny treat their women(when in love like Sunny is or having feelings that could grow into love like Raghav does).The Raghav we saw pre-marriage is indefensible so not gonna defend any of his actions.. but it won't be a fair comparison if I compare Sunny to that Raghav simply because he was not in love with Pallavi then.. He still isn't but he is well on his way to be.. I have nothing against live in honestly..but I think the reason Sunny is an advocate of that route is not because of his disillusionment about the idea of marriage that he blames his divorced parents for... I think its because he personally has commitment issues.. ''ek gayi, chhatees ayengi'' Blaming it on his parents divorce is a convenient way out because girls like Keerthi empathize and go all soft on such guys.. bechara Sunny and all ..and it played out well for him.. but a guy who is actually serious about a girl and loves her ''beintehaan'' would never treat her the way Sunny did yesterday. I was on the fence about Sunny... but after his blackmail stunt and the way he has been eversince.. clearly shows that makers have decided to turn him negative and it has worked..because I am not on the fence anymore as are most viewers I am sure.. Again, not being judgemental about marriage over live-in but just saying that Raghav in all his hatred and revenge mode, still did respect marriage and the sanctity of it..he followed all rituals properly from his end.. My point is I see live in as marriage, where two people commit to be together minus the social rituals or a public acceptance.. But Sunny seems to see live-in as a temporary arrangement where he can be with the girl as long as HE likes or wants and leave when he finds it hard to continue for x,y,z reason.. its all his choice, all about him..he doesn't care what Keerthi wants..

This has turned out to be a mini thesis..sorry! I will end it at that.. Sunny started out fine but the character has drastically changed in past few days.. now I can not root for him..

If I can write a thesis, you definitely don't need to apologize for a mini one 😆Always look forward to reading your take, and I appreciate you sharing thoughts before your morning coffee!

1. He had misogynistic traits in the beginning episodes- specifically, the things he said when he burnt the saris, and some of the other random statements here and there, but tbh, I'm happy to ignore this, because they corrected for that very quickly because people weren't liking it. The scene you mention, when she was unconscious, I think that's where they explicitly killed this trait, and I'm honestly so happy for it.

2. Yes, I completely agree! While I strongly condemn him treating them that way sometimes, it's a liberty they're okay with giving him because of how he is as a person. This was made explicit in that TT wala scene. They forgive his behaviour because of all the other plus points of working for him, and while I do think he should get better at this, it's a world apart from how Sunny treated someone else's employee.

3. Ahh, I loved reading this. So nuanced. I agree, I think they've made it clear now that Sunny is out and out negative, and any 'beintihaa mohabbat' is just nonsense. But up until this point, I did believe they could have gone either way.

But yeah, overall, my point is ki while I know there are loads of surface level similarities, I don't like the comparisons too much, because by delving deeper, the men clearly diverge. Now obviously, we have a lot more perspective on Raghav, so it's easier to spot the good, and nothing is stopping them from giving Sunny the same depth, but I don't see the rationale or the need to do it. I've been saying on this thread- don't give abusers a second chance in real life, because 99.99% will never change. The plot has successfully convinced us that Raghav is part of the 0.01% who can and will. I don't see them putting Sunny in the same category, but I'm eager to watch.

Been following this thread since morning and all the posts are bang on 👏

Yes, Raghav did say some objectional stuff like women are gold-diggers, can't drive or can't handle business. But it was quickly corrected. With Sunny, I think they were keeping their options open and maintaining a curiosity among audience, by showing his both good and bad qualities. They can still play around Sunny's character, to take him in either direction. In real life, no one changes for another person, they can only change if they want to change, otherwise not

Originally posted by: Amnnaa

Since I am lazy to type a long detailed comment, I'll share some of my own opinion rather than replying to your whole thread.

●I was a Sunki shipper till last week even though I hated his entry. He is being sexist and egoist in current episodes. If he get a redemption track, I might start to ship them again as long as he don't do some huge blunder.

P.S. I am a fan of Kush from DD days, so there is a chance I might be partial towards him.

●Unlike majority of fan, I was never a fan of Raghav in initial episodes. Pallavi was the only reason I decided to give this show a chance. He was a broken soul but that don't justify his actions at all. I was never able to connect to his character before marriage as it was so inconsistent. One moment he is a playboy, arrogant and rude business man and next moment he is loving and caring philanthropist.

But there were certain qualities in him which I loved. Like never raising his hands on women and not manhandling Pallavi even when his anger was out of control unlike usual ITV ML. The one time he accidentally hurted her he apologised and even applied ointment on her. Another one is not punishing innocents even if it cost him high and his upfront nature. He always play his game from front and never shy away from saying the truth and he proudly accepts all his actions and deeds. This qualities in him is the reason why I accepted his character even after all his atrocities. And his change after knowing the truth and the way he was ready to accept the consequences of his actions kinda impressed me.

That's all and thank you for reading my long useless rant.

P.S.Thank you for taking a effort to start this topic. This was a much needed thread 🤗.

I agree with both your points! I shipped SunKi, can't after the suicide threat and this week though, but if they redeem him well, who knows. Though at this point, I don't see it happening. I haven't seen Kush before, but I'm loving what I'm seeing now. To me, he's the most compelling actor after Sai and Shivangi, and I love watching Sunny on screen, even as a villain.

And hi5, I wasn't into Raghav earlier at all! I was in it for Pallavi. I hate using past trauma to defend bad behaviour. It can explain it, sure, but not justify it. I started liking Raghav mostly post marriage only. And I also don't like the idea of shoving 'oh but no, he can be an asshole, but see, he does charity and is nice to kids, so forget all else', so I fully get what you're saying.

The lack of manhandling is something I've loved about this show- all the pushing and grabbing and pinning in the name of 'chemistry' has made me so uncomfortable in the past. I think, once they hit some 20-odd episodes, they stabilized with Raghav's character, and I adore what they've done with him in over the arc of the show. They've given him tremendous growth, and it's very well written.

Originally posted by: PSharada

Beautiful post and great Analysis. I agree with you that Raghav did lot of bad things in initial episodes. But right from the first episode they showed his good heart - in the very first episode he buys sindoor from the girl selling even though he has no use for it and gives 500 Rs for 1 bottle. He tells her to go home instead of being out selling. He knows what it is to be poor. I an yet to see a tender moment like that from Sunny.

Regarding the truck incident - I differ a slight bit here. Raghav after a really long time got his mother to come with him to the award presentation and bam right at that comes out the photos that Anjali leaks thereby causing his mother to collapse. I guess he gets angry that Pallavi might have been involved and hence he does that truck stunt. Had Anjali not did her sleeping thing stunt, he was mightily impressed by Pallu's dedication and work ethics including doing catering at old age home. In fact he says this girl is not that bad. Regarding Sunny he seems to have a male only superior attitude - he readily helped Raghav and Lion but I am yet to see him helping a woman in need. Raghav was obnoxious in the beginning too but acknowledges Pallu' s grit during the old age home catering event.

In the anger of Anjali's trick when RR buys pallu's shop and she comes to talk to him, Raghav ups the AC in the hall. When Pallavi's blouse gets torn and we see Raghav is watching her in cctv camera - there is a split second remorse that Raghav feels for Pallavi. He turns his eyes away till Pallavi covers herself and when she is about to leave his house he gives her his jacket as he knows with a torn blouse she might be leered at when she is walking back to her shop. So Raghav even when he was doing bad things Creative's balanced his character with these small things.

Later on Raghav and Pallavi's fight were more on who will win the 30 day challenge. Raghav never shows Pallavi down for being a girl. In fact during the sangeet episode when Pallavi steps outside, Raghav is out on the road. I am assuming it is because he saw her stepping out late at night - he just was making sure she is safe. And when Pallavi takes help of random people Raghav could have walked out and went back to the function to be with his Amma but he follows the car and rescues Pallavi. He didn't need to but gives Pallavi moral support when she goes to the lady trying to dupe her. So yes Raghav is way better than Sunny even when there was no love between them and Raghav - Pallavi were in challenge mode. Sunny - I haven't seen him talk to Keerti with respect - love toh door ki baat hain.

And the redemption arc of Raghav was really good. The moment he realises that D family is not worthy of Pallavi, he doesn't hesitate to declare that Pallavi is his responsibility. She is his wife and he will take care of her. He also doesn't disrespect the sanctity of marriage and does all the rituals.

Sunny has to show a tremendous change. It depends on what creative's decide but right now there is not one scene where his character can be expected to grow.

Yes, my core point is exactly what you've highlighted- Raghav and Sunny are similar on the surface- brash, rude, angry, etc, but digging deeper, I feel Raghav fares better even though his crimes have been more severe, because of an inherent goodness and a desire to improve. If we see something similar in Sunny, I'll happily give him a second chance too, but they're yet to show us anything of that kind.

I do disagree with you on the truck incident though, That was straight up attempted murder, and no matter how angry or disappointed he was, I am unable to justify that, but I do understand your perspective. We all have a different take!