~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 94

Do you think Bheeshm really cared for Vichitraveer/Chitrangad?

No, A random gandharva killed his brother, and he didnt even raise a finger. Brothers dont do that.

Sahadev a step brother when he attacked Kirimir in the forest for.kidnapping draupadi during exile, Yudhi and Nakul rushed for his aid. Bhima was away but he came quickly too.

Drau swayamvar, Arjun was armed standing against kings. Bhima didnt have weapons he uprroted a tree to protect Arjun

That is caring for the brother

By the VV died of Pthisis or popularly known as tuberculosis as per the epic.

But Pthsis is contagious, specially to spouse. How come VV had it but none of his wives. Was it poisoning instead

One of things we frequently miss or misinterpret:

45 surakāryam iyaṃ kāle kariṣyati sumadhyamā

asyā hetoḥ kṣatriyāṇāṃ mahad utpatsyate bhayam

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs01155.htm

Supreme among women, this beauty of

the dark complexion will bring about the destruction of the Kshatriyas. In time, this one with

the beautiful waist will perform the objective of the gods. From her will arise terrible fear

among the Kshatriyas.

-------

This was a PLAN, not a prophecy. Panchali's adoption by Drupada was a planned move. All the surrounding stories become meaningless once we realize this.

No, she couldn't have been Yaja/Upayaja's child because it would mean Drupada just wandered around, seeking random children.

No, they couldn't have been Drupada's own because 1) Dhrishtadyumna would've been known before and 2) Kuru-Panchal alliance worked before without any adoption (Amba, Ambika, Ambalika with their Srinjaya grandfather) and the only reason to do an adoption would be to bring in another clan with stakes in the plan 3) Drupada would've had more of a reaction to everything that happened to Panchali after

Apart from kshatriya vs. kshatrya conflict, there was the Vasishta-Varuni vs Angirasa clash. Any interpretation which fails to take into account these 2 battles is either 1) assuming everything happened randomly or 2) assuming everything happened by magic.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

One of things we frequently miss or misinterpret:

45 surakāryam iyaṃ kāle kariṣyati sumadhyamā

asyā hetoḥ kṣatriyāṇāṃ mahad utpatsyate bhayam

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs01155.htm

Supreme among women, this beauty of

the dark complexion will bring about the destruction of the Kshatriyas. In time, this one with

the beautiful waist will perform the objective of the gods. From her will arise terrible fear

among the Kshatriyas.

-------

This was a PLAN, not a prophecy. Panchali's adoption by Drupada was a planned move. All the surrounding stories become meaningless once we realize this.

No, she couldn't have been Yaja/Upayaja's child because it would mean Drupada just wandered around, seeking random children.

No, they couldn't have been Drupada's own because 1) Dhrishtadyumna would've been known before and 2) Kuru-Panchal alliance worked before without any adoption (Amba, Ambika, Ambalika with their Srinjaya grandfather) and the only reason to do an adoption would be to bring in another clan with stakes in the plan 3) Drupada would've had more of a reaction to everything that happened to Panchali after

Apart from kshatriya vs. kshatrya conflict, there was the Vasishta-Varuni vs Angirasa clash. Any interpretation which fails to take into account these 2 battles is either 1) assuming everything happened randomly or 2) assuming everything happened by magic.

How much was planned. The above quote says that panchali will fullfilll the task given to her by "gods" who are these gods and what was the plan? And also that she will cause destruction of Kshatriya that indicates mb war but was happened because of dice game. And dice game was planned by duryodhan ?? I don't think how drapaud or co could have known this early about everything that was to be followed.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Yes. Also to note is that Bheeshma was primarily an archer. A 95 yo could still possibly do archery. He wasn't a mace fighter or swordsman to need to be physically fit.

This I am not sure about.

Chariot isn't a car that anyone could just climb up, it's a very risky vehicle to be honest. Aside even if we take that he could somehow climb onto it then archery needs precision.

Normally at the age of 90+, the eyesight of a person would become weak and the hands shaky. Can't be sure, on how good such a person would be in case of highly precise activities

Originally posted by: Krishnapanchali

How much was planned. The above quote says that panchali will fullfilll the task given to her by "gods" who are these gods and what was the plan? And also that she will cause destruction of Kshatriya that indicates mb war but was happened because of dice game. And dice game was planned by duryodhan ?? I don't think how drapaud or co could have known this early about everything that was to be followed.

Control of the kshatriyas was the plan, which they clearly tried to do. War happened because of Kauravas.

Point is that her adoption and marriage were a political plot. Planned events. Without taking that into consideration, all the birth theories are useless.

Yaja/uapayaja is probably the silliest. Drupada went around to random rishis, seeking a son who could kill Drona? How would he be sure the kid could? #headsmack. He would've scouted for a kid who could actually do the deed. Ie, a nearly grown young man. Given Vyasa's involvement in the rest, he probably arranged the adoption. The question then becomes why Vyasa would do it because prior Kuru Panchal alliances were attempted without any adoption. Ie, why Panchali who needed an adoption as opposed to any random princess from the extended Panchal clan?

Panchali's birth family was surely involved here. I'm thinking Vyasa was negotiating a truce between his clan and Angirasas in addition to one between Kuru and Panchal. Yadavas came along for the ride because of their connection with Angirasas.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

I believe there is a mention of Bheeshma beating up Vichitraveera.

Is it??

Please please tell me where is it? Is it in Adi Parva? Want to read it? And why did he? Was it for some reason or just like that

I don't think Vichitraveer was a very bad person or something, but the modern day writers make him someone like typical aiyashh man only into .......

Yes Bheeshm was never so much into support of his brothers, excluding the Abduction of the Kashi princess.

To be honest even that actually gave Vichitraveer a bad name like he can't even get a wife for himself and Bheeshm has to arrange them for him.

Arjun and Krishna had abducted the girls on their own.

Even when Karna abducted the girls for Duryodhan, at least Duryodhan was physically present there, and was the one to at least hold the girl and take them, along with minor assistance and secondary support.

But for Vichitraveer, Bheeshm did everything including carrying the girls to the chariot that would have made Vichitraveer a laughing stock in the royal circles.

I can not be sure about poisoning thing, because I do believe that Bheeshm loved Hastinapur (if nothing and no-one else), a person can not live without loving anything/anyone and he actually had no-one to love.

So Poisoning Vichitraveer at a time when Jarasangh was gaining power which could have led to Hastinapur becoming a vassal of Magadh doesn't seem possible to me

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Control of the kshatriyas was the plan, which they clearly tried to do. War happened because of Kauravas.

Point is that her adoption and marriage were a political plot. Planned events. Without taking that into consideration, all the birth theories are useless.

Yaja/uapayaja is probably the silliest. Drupada went around to random rishis, seeking a son who could kill Drona? How would he be sure the kid could? #headsmack. He would've scouted for a kid who could actually do the deed. Ie, a nearly grown young man. Given Vyasa's involvement in the rest, he probably arranged the adoption. The question then becomes why Vyasa would do it because prior Kuru Panchal alliances were attempted without any adoption. Ie, why Panchali who needed an adoption as opposed to any random princess from the extended Panchal clan?

Panchali's birth family was surely involved here. I'm thinking Vyasa was negotiating a truce between his clan and Angirasas in addition to one between Kuru and Panchal. Yadavas came along for the ride because of their connection with Angirasas.

How could Kuru family (especially Pandavas) become his clan though? They weren't related to Vyas at all, neither biologically nor legally except maybe Yudhishtir.

His attempt for Agniras connection could be true but considering that Draupadi was not Nand's daughter, a reputed Agniras family would not actually support for Brahmhatya.

Aside now I doubt if Draupadi and Dhristhdhyum were actually somehow related biologically or was it just that they were adopted from different families on the same day

Vichitraveerya is supposed to have died from pthsis a few months after his marriage.

Pthisis also known as consumption is what Tuberculosis was called in ancient times.

TB is a wasting disease. It slowly eats up your lung. And the process happens over a few years. It doesnt happen in days or weeks.

One theory is VV was already sufferring from pthisis, that Satyavati and HP tried to hide. But somehow rumors circulated and that is why Kashi did not invite HP for swayamvar.

Because pthisis/TB is contagious through body fluids. Hence marriage cannot be consummated.

Bhishma.still went and kidnapped the girls. To get them.married as formality to his step brother, so that the wives could have children through niyog. One major reason again why Salwa refused Amba, her virginty carried a question mark..

So Vyasa was already in the picture and niyog planned for VVs wives.

Second theory is.

If this was not pre existing condition hidden by satyavati then.VV cannot have this disease. He must have been poisoned. Because this disease takes couple of years to kill, but symptoms emerge as soon as a person is infected

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

How could Kuru family (especially Pandavas) become his clan though? They weren't related to Vyas at all, neither biologically nor legally except maybe Yudhishtir.

His attempt for Agniras connection could be true but considering that Draupadi was not Nand's daughter, a reputed Agniras family would not actually support for Brahmhatya.

Aside now I doubt if Draupadi and Dhristhdhyum were actually somehow related biologically or was it just that they were adopted from different families on the same day

The clan issue clearly did not matter at all to Vyasa. He wanted to bring the kshatriyas of the land under control. Period. That he was related to Kurus meant he had some voice there. Uniting the land wasn't possible without uniting Kuru-Panchala and uniting Vasishta-Varuni with Angirasa.

One of the key things about Dhrishtadyumna's adoption is that though Drupada went looking for a boy who could kill Drona, no steps in that direction were ever taken. Now, if we believe in dwapar yug magic, that is easily explainable. if we don't, then it is evident that death of Drona was not what was intended, but defense AGAINST Drona. Yeah, that did mean someone who could kill Drona. Which Dhrishtadyumna eventually did and gave his ready excuses, also.

The young man is said to have been competent in all weapons at his adoption. Panchali was said to be well-versed in vedas. ie, they were educated well and likely to be kshatriya or brahmana. Given Vyasa's need to unite the brahmins as well as kshatriya, Panchali and Dhrishtadyumna were likely Angirasas.

No way were Panchali and Dhrishtadyumna not related. Drupada wanted only Dhrishtadyumna. Panchali came along as likely as a condition placed on the boy's adoption. Which wouldn't happen unless they were related.

Now, I do think Kuhu/Ekanamsa being simultaneously the daughter of Nanda and Angirasa meant the yadavas were connected. Plus, Krishna was supposed to have been Ghora's student.

Could be other theories as well. But any such theory needs to take the politics into account because Vyasa talks about his plan right at the outset! Somehow, this gets missed in most theories I've seen out there.