~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 36

Why does Bhishma prefer Duryodhan over Yudhishthir?

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

You are right, the times then was very different from then, the sages back then had immense power. Any king needed their support to continue the rule

When Astik approached Janamejay to stop the Nahmedh, he was accompanied by saints, and that was the precise reason why Janmayey had to hear him (although many saints were also supporting Janmayey to carry out the Yagya)

There was no way they could have simply killed the kids and escaped. The sages could have simply led a public usurp.

The plan was to get them dead separately so that the death looks natural

And you are saying a PM was murdered, many have been murdered, but there are also multiple murder attempts that have been foiled, just we don't get to know about it, Pandavas were lucky and had a good protector

Anyhow I guess we are going in circles, we both agree that Bheeshm preferred Dury over Pandavas. We both agree that Bheeshm was not so much of a confidant to Pandavas that he could be told about the murder attempts, we know that Bheeshm himself agreed of Duryodhan crowning and was actually not vocal (unlike Vidur) during Dice Hall. The epic is clear on what Bheeshm thought of woman with premarital affairs, and that Bheeshm knew about Karna being Kunti's son. Post that you want to think Bheeshm wasn't involved in conspiracy against Pandavas just because he wasn't successful then that's ok, but for me joining all the points together clearly indicate that he was very much aware of every plan

I don't think there would be failed attempts if Bhishma and King had decided to kill Pandavas. You are saying there were attempts on basis of what Duryodhan did, Duryodhan was openly bad in front of these sages

This theory doesn't work because none would want to implicate the future King, I mean what is the logic behind Bhishma going to lengths to kill Pandavas and everything for Duryodhana and same Bhishma asking Duryodhana to do the job?

Bhishma not doing anything doesn't mean he was involved in it, It either means that he didn't have enough say or power in these matter or He didn't want to make it a common knowledge, do something which will widen the gap between two families

I don't believe in failed attempts because the power was 100% in Kaurava's favor, The narrative was with them too, there was no implication on them after Lac house, what did Sages do after knowing about Pandava's death in Lac house?

This attempt would have been much much easier on kids

I am agreeing to the possibility of him preferring Duryodhana

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I don't think there would be failed attempts if Bhishma and King had decided to kill Pandavas. You are saying there were attempts on basis of what Duryodhan did, Duryodhan was openly bad in front of these sages

This theory doesn't work because none would want to implicate the future King, I mean what is the logic behind Bhishma going to lengths to kill Pandavas and everything for Duryodhana and same Bhishma asking Duryodhana to do the job?

Bhishma not doing anything doesn't mean he was involved in it, It either means that he didn't have enough say or power in these matter or He didn't want to make it a common knowledge, do something which will widen the gap between two families

I don't believe in failed attempts because the power was 100% in Kaurava's favor, The narrative was with them too, there was no implication on them after Lac house, what did Sages do after knowing about Pandava's death in Lac house?

This attempt would have been much much easier on kids

I am agreeing to the possibility of him preferring Duryodhana

@bold - any citation in support of this? I mean I am genuinely interested.

Why this conclusion that Bhishma supported Duryodhan?

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

@bold - any citation in support of this? I mean I am genuinely interested.

Why this conclusion that Bhishma supported Duryodhan?

We are reading between the lines, as to why Bhishma didn't do anything for Pandavas and why didn't Pandavas go to him for support?

I agreed to the possibility of Bhishma preferring Duryodhana because he was Dhritarashtra's son and Pandavas weren't Kunti's sons

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I don't think there would be failed attempts if Bhishma and King had decided to kill Pandavas. You are saying there were attempts on basis of what Duryodhan did, Duryodhan was openly bad in front of these sages

This theory doesn't work because none would want to implicate the future King, I mean what is the logic behind Bhishma going to lengths to kill Pandavas and everything for Duryodhana and same Bhishma asking Duryodhana to do the job?

Bhishma not doing anything doesn't mean he was involved in it, It either means that he didn't have enough say or power in these matter or He didn't want to make it a common knowledge, do something which will widen the gap between two families

I don't believe in failed attempts because the power was 100% in Kaurava's favor, The narrative was with them too, there was no implication on them after Lac house, what did Sages do after knowing about Pandava's death in Lac house?

This attempt would have been much much easier on kids

I am agreeing to the possibility of him preferring Duryodhana

Duryodhan wasn't openly bad in Front of sages at that time. He became so only after the war when he became a designated villian. His crimes were never in open earlier. The narration was written after the war when those crimes were actually highlighted.

There is a difference between Bheeshm not doing anything and Bheeshm not being told a thing. Bheeshm had arranged for the marriages of Dhritrashtra n Pandu, he was always powerful at least definitely till Dury became old enough to get into politics. After murderous attempt did he actually think that the gap could be parted? I don't think Bheeshm was so stupid. And he definitely can't be so aloof that he doesn't get to know that his grandson was poisoned. That was a big risk on royal family if it was done by someone external

Lax house thing was done far away not in the city premises so as to let go any suspicion and even then i am sure Bheeshm wasn't a part of this plan. And they did escape lax house too.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Why does Bhishma prefer Duryodhan over Yudhishthir?

I had made a post in page 32-33. In a nutshell

Bheeshm was a misogynist and had very bad impression about woman who had premarital relations, since he knew about Karna's birth he definitely would have had bad impression on Kunti

Aside Bheeshm had promised Satyavati's lineage on throne. Pandu n Dhritrashtra were biologically so being sons of Vyas, Satyavati's son, Dury biological son of Dhritrashtra, Pandavas only legal lineage by a Niyog which wasn't done by family's permission

We are assuming this basis his acts. Why was he completely mum at Dwit Sabha, why didn't Pandavas reach out to him complaining the murder attempts, how did he being so observant missed out thr murder attempts on his grandsons why did he fight for Dury during their war(he had no oath to remain loyal to the throne unlike what TV series show

Now it's just perspective basis circumstantial evidence, we can't prove either true

Originally posted by: NoraSM

We are reading between the lines, as to why Bhishma didn't do anything for Pandavas and why didn't Pandavas go to him for support?

I agreed to the possibility of Bhishma preferring Duryodhana because he was Dhritarashtra's son and Pandavas weren't Kunti's sons

I read a few posts, was unable to clearly follow because as usual I am late xD

Anyway, I'll write a few points/questions in my next post

Originally posted by: NoraSM

We are reading between the lines, as to why Bhishma didn't do anything for Pandavas and why didn't Pandavas go to him for support?

I agreed to the possibility of Bhishma preferring Duryodhana because he was Dhritarashtra's son and Pandavas weren't Kunti's sons

@ bold weren't Pandu's sons

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

@ bold weren't Pandu's sons

But pandu had accepted them , after pandu's insistence Kunti used that mantra. Pandu was still d king , if bheesam was against kuni begotting demi god's children , then he would had opposed pandu, what was stopping him.

2 be very true even drishrastra was not d real heir , he was vedvyas son not vichitravirya.

Bheesam was true heir 2 d throne but he vowed not 2 sat on throne. Bheesam vowed child born 2 satyavati from Shantanu will sit on throne sadly both sons died & bheesam can't sit on throne that's why they went 4 niyog.

If bheesam was so dury pro then why dint he made dury Yuvraj when Pandavas had not arrived , even dury was never a king also .

If bheesam was so against pandavas then he had many occasions 2 kill them without being caught or suspected, he had no reason 2 act good infront of all

Regarding lakshagrah they don't have proof against dury coz purochan died

AFAIK, Bhishma did support Pandu to become the emperor because if he did not, there was no way how he could have become one. (I am not going to put citations but putting links) - Nowhere is it mentioned what Bhishma supported, but if we are considering Satyavati and Bhishma to be the only two decision makers then obviously the decision of Pandu being king was his.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01110.htm

If we are considering VIDUR to be the one who fathered Yudhishthir, how come Bhishma was okay with this if he wanted Dhritarashtra's sons. Note here, we already know Pandu is impotent. So niyog would mean Kunti obtaining a son before Gandhari can obtain Dhritarashtra's progeny. Why would Bhishma let this happen? If we say Vidur was not the father, we also must remember D, V and P themselves are not from the Kuru bloodline so in this case either Bhishma should have gone for niyog himself or got all of these princes killed.

I am unable to understand why he would have a problem with niyog children. Again, is there any citation where he says he is against niyog children? Doesn't seem so. Niyog kids are considered to be the King's legal sons.

If he disliked Pandavas, why did he allow them to come back to the kingdom? Unless these Kuru elders were okay with it, Kunti could not have done anything considering the power dynamics.

Why would he support Duryodhan over Yudhishthir when Yudhishthir was clearly the one favoured by the sages, also the more obedient one.