~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 38

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

But I don't understand why he would be unsuccessful. It is extremely easy to have removed Pandavas. When they were children why was Bhishma sitting. People who were part of lac house are mentioned clearly in the text, why Bhishma's name will be removed even post war if he was involved in this?

Also why are we assuming Bhishma knew every thing. Duryodhan was not dumb to have told Bhishma everything. He obviously wasn't doing anything dharmic. Why will anyone risk telling any elder about a plan to kill cousins. He may have not known at all..

Why would he not kill YBNS in the war? Arjun was strong to defeat him but i refuse to believe he could not even get hold of YNS? Leaving Bheem out too. Yudhishthir wasn't some great warrior. Also didnt Bhishma take a vow to not kill any Pandavas or is it a serial addition. I am not sure of this so not using this as a point but there's no reason for him not to capture Yudhi.

Moreover, why didn't he openly support duryodhan. What's rhe need to hide it and not clearly mention that he supports duryodhan - his vow said satya's lineage will be king so he is fulfilling his vow. Nobody could accuse him..

I am unable to understand what proves his love for duryodhan

His being unsuccessful is exactly what Nora too is saying the proof that he wasn't into it, but I think that was just because Vidur was better

I am sure Bheeshm wasn't a part of Lakshagriha conspiracy that would have been very stupid for someone like Bheeshm.

The reason to assume that Bheeshm knew about it is that Bheeshm was the caretaker of the royal family, how could he miss out the fact that one of the royal Prince is being poisoned?? Why didn't the Pandavas ever reach out to him??

Assuming that Bheeshm was capable to kill them is very irrational considering Drona and Shalya could not kill them. Aside Bheeshm was in late nineties early hundreds why do you think he would be so capable.

He always supported Duryodhan, be in wars or in crowing

Originally posted by: NoraSM

@bold

I don't understand why wouldn't they name Bhishma if he was as involved as you are saying, Dhritarashtra wasn't openly involved but his name is taken by Krishna.

I said there are two probabilities -

Bhishma not doing anything doesn't mean he was involved in it, It either means that he didn't have enough say or power in these matter or He didn't want to make it a common knowledge, do something which will widen the gap between two families

I stand by it, his name would have been mentioned if he was involved, we are reading between the lines, I don't think he was such a big villain as we are making him

If he was powerful, he would have killed Pandavas if he wanted to within a week and the same powerful guy shut up everyone to keep the facade of a strong kin and kingdom going

Pandu vs Dhritarashtra when Pandavas were younger wouldn't have been ideal for Bhishma or Hastinapur

It can't be that a powerful Bhishma with state machinery, King, Law behind him failed in killing 5 kids

Thats weak and stupid

Because Bheeshm held respect throughout. Had they accepted that Bheeshm, Dhritrashtra, Kripacharya all wanted Duryodhan as king and didn't want Pandavas there, then what image will Pandavas hold? That none of the elders saw them as real contenders, image building is necessary.

Bheeshm was a respected one, public wouldn't accept him as wrong without proof like they did to Duryodhan, something like Yudhishtir remainded Dharmaraj despite everything he did.

State machinery and law couldn't be used to kill the kids

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

First of all bheesam approached satyavati's father 4 his father Shantanu's marriage with satyavati , bheesam was eldest son of Shantanu & crowned prince also , when satyavati's father was worried for satyavati's children future which was 2 be born after marriage with Shantanu coz I don't think he knew about vedvyas neither I feel satyavati told Shantanu about him. He wanted his daughter's children to be d rulers on this bheesam took d vow of not sitting on throne , bheesam never vowed for satyavati's linage coz he 2 was not knowing about satyavati had a son before marriage. Bheesam vow was 4 satyavati's son born from Shantanu .

Sadly both son of satyavati died leaving no heir , I read satyavati even approached bheesam for niyog thing but he refused , later she told about vedvyas.

Bheesam had 2 ways with him.

He break his vow & claim d throne

Accept satyavati's suggestion of niyog through vedvyas.

He was forced to go by satyavati's suggestion

He very well knew about pandu's curse also I guess ghandhari was pregnant for 2 years by then Kunti also had son by yama after pandu's approval , pandu was very much d king , if bheesam would had been so against this Kunti's niyog procedure he would had talked about this 2 pandu which he never did , what was stopping him .

If bheesam promised satyavati's linage then he promised sons begotted by Shantanu .

Bheeshm did vow Satyavati lineage (not sure if he knew about Vyas). Aside Bheeshm was never told about Niyog of Kunti unlike Satyavati who took permission from Bheeshm

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

He would definitely prefer Pandu over Dhritrashtra because Pandu was physically fit, yes he was impotent but no one would know this till marriage. After two marriages when his wives didn't conceive he got the message came up with the curse theory and left

Definitely he had no objection to Niyog and he would have been ok to Yudhishtir had Duryodhan not been in picture. Duryodhan was a biological great grandson of Satyavati unlike Pandavas.

Also the major point being Bheeshm was not informed about Kunti's Niyog(be it Vidur or anyone else) He had bad opinion with woman who have extra/pre marital relations add to it that he knew the birth secret of Karna..

In such situation who would he prefer among Dury n Yudhishtir? If Vidur was actually the biological dad all the worse, why would he even think of having the lineage of a Dasi on the throne

And where is it mentioned that Duryodhan was not obidient? He respected and obeyed Bheeshm completely

How do we know he was not informed? On one hand we are claiming that he has a network of spies and he knew about everything going on and one of the reasoning is why he didn't help Pandavas. Now on other hand we are saying he did not know about niyog of Pandu. This is contradicting. Also Bhishma is not stupid, he would know very well Pandu is impotent. These boons and curses are to fool common people as for them Royal lineage and kings are representatives of God on Earth. Bhishma doesn't need to believe in all this hogwash IMO. So obviously if he can know about everything from Kunti's son to other things he not knowing about niyog is strange.

I have said things in reply to other points in my other posts about Karna birth as well.

Also, coming to his vow - he said -

Vaisampayana continued, 'O thou of Bharata's race, Devavrata, having heard these words, and moved by the desire of benefiting his father thus answered in the hearing of the assembled chiefs, 'O foremost of truthful men, listen to the vow I utter! The man has not been or will not be born, who will have the courage to take such a vow! I shall accomplish all that thou demandest! The son that may be born of this maiden shall be our king.'

Technically, taking this for word, Satya's dad's fear was Satya's sons won't be King and Bhishma's sons won't let Satya's grandchildren be kings. Tbh, Satya's sons did inherit the throne and become kings ie her two proper legitimate sons with Shantanu. If we are taking the vow word by word Bhishma did keep his word. There is no mention of him having to work hard to continue that Satya's lineage continue to inherit the throne. For that, he decided not to marry and follow Brahmacharya.

Just like no mention of him being loyal to throne of HP, there is no mention of him having to work to make sure satya's lineage continue to get the throne. Her sons did become king and then died and Bhishma's sons never existed. So he did keep his vow and he didn't have to check to it that Satyas lineage that too from a premarital sexual hospitality relationship had to endure.

Honestly speaking both Kurti and Satya faced same thing. One side he is working to make lineage of satya's illegitimate son gets throne while he is against Kunti's same case is not viable

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

His being unsuccessful is exactly what Nora too is saying the proof that he wasn't into it, but I think that was just because Vidur was better

I am sure Bheeshm wasn't a part of Lakshagriha conspiracy that would have been very stupid for someone like Bheeshm.

The reason to assume that Bheeshm knew about it is that Bheeshm was the caretaker of the royal family, how could he miss out the fact that one of the royal Prince is being poisoned?? Why didn't the Pandavas ever reach out to him??

Assuming that Bheeshm was capable to kill them is very irrational considering Drona and Shalya could not kill them. Aside Bheeshm was in late nineties early hundreds why do you think he would be so capable.

He always supported Duryodhan, be in wars or in crowing

@bold -

They weren't powerful as Kids

And It wad Bhishma who appointed Drona as their teacher so Arjuna learnt everything because of Bhishma

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Bheeshm did vow Satyavati lineage (not sure if he knew about Vyas). Aside Bheeshm was never told about Niyog of Kunti unlike Satyavati who took permission from Bheeshm

I m also saying this but it was for Shantanu's son not any son of satyavati . Without Shantanu involved bheesam would had never approached only forget taking vow & satyavati was not a royal birth nor related 2 bheesam then why will he take vow 4 satyavati & leave his crownship.

Reason of bheesam approaching Satyavati's father was Shantanu's obsession 4 satyavati.

Bheesam took this vow coz his father not coz of satyavati .

Later Shantanu granted him d boon of iccha mrityu

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Bheeshm did vow Satyavati lineage (not sure if he knew about Vyas). Aside Bheeshm was never told about Niyog of Kunti unlike Satyavati who took permission from Bheeshm

He promised to give throne to Satyas sons in place of himself as both are sons to shantanu. How will bhishma make sure her lineage continues. What if satya was unable to bear children (he did not know about Vyas, Satya told him this before calling Vyas for niyog- citation link given) what if they were girls, what if they were disabled, what if they died at birth. What if her sons would have died before marriage. Bhishma can promise he won't take throne. It's humanly impossible for him and also unlikely that he will make sure her lineage continues by hook or crook. All he promised was he won't be king ie satya's SON will be king. (Not lineage, there's a difference). He also said he won't establish sexual relation so he won't have sons who can come in their path. Where is it said he promised her lineage throne

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Because Bheeshm held respect throughout. Had they accepted that Bheeshm, Dhritrashtra, Kripacharya all wanted Duryodhan as king and didn't want Pandavas there, then what image will Pandavas hold? That none of the elders saw them as real contenders, image building is necessary.

Bheeshm was a respected one, public wouldn't accept him as wrong without proof like they did to Duryodhan, something like Yudhishtir remainded Dharmaraj despite everything he did.

State machinery and law couldn't be used to kill the kids

King Dhritarashtra should be honoured both by myself and you all. He. indeed, is a well-wisher of mine who is obedient to the commands of Dhritarashtra. He, on the other hand, who behaves otherwise towards him, is my enemy. Such a man should certainly be punished by me

This is Yudhishtir on Dhritarashtra, Is there anything to suggest that Bhishma was loved and people won't accept him as wrong but Dhritarashtra being wrong is acceptable?

We are just overlooking everything and trying to see Mahabharata from one perspective of Bhishma being villain, I don't believe there's enough evidence for it to be true

@bold -

Law and State machinery was with The King

Bhishma conspired to send Duryodhana to kill Bhima because Bhishma wanted Duryodhana as King

If Bhishma wanted to kill Pandavas would have hired someone to do it, arrest him after he does so and punish him in front of sages and public, if Sages were the problem then kill 2-3 sons of Dhritarashtra too

IF Bhishma was doing everything to see Duryodhana as King, he wouldn't ask a kid Duryodhana to be a part of murder plan of future King.

I wouldn't trust a child with my important documents and this is risking image of Crown Prince

What Bhishma did was because of SHANTANU, not SATYA. There's no reason to think he cared so much about Satya that he would be hell bent on making sure her ILLEGITIMATE SON's lineage ie VYASA'S SONS would inherit the throne.

Bhishma only promised two things - 1) Satyavati's son will be King in place of him, as Shantanu's successor and 2) He will be Brahmacharya so that his sons never come in way of Satya's sons, grandsons etc.

This means - I won't create trouble as Satya's dad's main concern was HIM. Nowhere is it said and considering how against he is of illegitimate children, he would never give up his life to make sure Satya's lineage survived.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I actually don't think Karna was a result of Brahmin Sewa, because then there was no reason to hide it. Maiden girls were expected to do this and they did not have to hide it. Satyavati was never into hiding Vyas. Vyas always knew who his mother was. Kunti's case was different, she never said it at all.

Well on Yudhishtir knowing about the truth, he would have definitely tried to get back as Kunti Krishna feared but even he knew that legally Karna had no standing and on getting to know about it Yudhishtir would again become a contender so that wasn't a good solution anyway.

Even without Karna angle a direct descandents of Satyavati has to be preferable over only legal one

Bheeshm was definitely trying to get Duryodhan on throne in fact maximum time it was Dury who held the administrative position till they were alive except the few years Yudhishtir was the Yuvaraj. In fact even after partition, Duryodhan was the overlord

But who else would be overlord after partition? Yudhishthir isn't here so obviously it will be Duryodhan.

I still don't understand why he did not anything if he didn't want Yudhishthir besides again, he never promised descendants of Satya.

Also if it was so accepted how come Satyavati never told this to Shantanu and her dad also never mentioned above Vyas.

Kunti hides it because i think she was most probably r***d and not naturally asked to do it. Moreover why didn't she wish to marry Solar dynasty prince or choose him etc like Amba planned to do if it is a solar dynasty prince. Why choose Pandu.