Arjun vs Bhim - Page 4

Responses inside in blue

Originally posted by: NoraSM

I know Bhima made that vow that's why he killed 100 Kauravas, does this mean none of the brothers or warriors in Pandava's side were able to kill even 1 Kauravas? I think they left them for Bhima to fulfill his vow

Sure they did, and they also left Karna and Shakuni for Arjun and Sahadev

Skills people acquire by hard work makes them superior, Arjun worked hard to get weapons and train himself, Arjun's absence from Kurukshetra had landed them on back foot, Duryodhana would have won on that day itself, if not for Arjun's son 

But only on that day, since it was the day that Jayadrath's boon was effective.  Remember, at other times, others had no problems defeating Jayadrath

Shiva gave Arjun the boon, If you know this then don't you know how Arjun acquired it? He defeated and satisfied Lord Shiva 🙃

Oh, no!  Arjun lost to Kirat, but when he noticed that the flowers he had offered the lingam appeared on Kirat, he realized who he was.  Also, Mahadev gave him the boon b'cos of the tapasya Arjun did preceding that, not b'cos of that performance

Didn't Arjun vow to kill Jayadratha before sunset or he will kill himself? On 14th day, there was a 3 layered formation to stop Arjun from reaching Jayadratha, There was 48 miles long Vyuh with 20 Mile diameter chakravyuh of Kaurava warriors for Arjun, which was led by Dronacharya, Everyone in Kaurava army was protecting Jayadratha to make sure Arjun kills himself, I don't understand why would they focus on an inconsequential part of Pandavas. Jayadratha wasn't in this Chakravyuh, he was being protected by Karna and Aawatthama along with more than 100k knights, 60k chariots, 14k elephant warriors, 20k foot soldiers, Arjun broke all layers efficiently to reach Jayadratha 

Chakravyuha wasn't the vyuha used on day 14: something else was.  At any rate, Arjun was breaking through it, but he was unable to defeat Drona, so Krishna suggested just bypassing him.  Satyaki defeated Drona and continued, while Bhima broke 100 of Drona's chariots.  W/o taking anything away from Arjun, he was assisted by the assaults of Satyaki and Bhima, particularly Bhima.  Karna was actually in one of the outer layers of the vyuha, and Arjun managed to bypass him, while Bhima gave Karna a good battering.  So much so that Duryodhan had to send several of his brothers to their death to protect him.

The aim was to kill Jayadratha before Sunset, Arjun and Drona were in a never ending battle which would have led to sunset and Arjun killing himself, Therefore Krushna advised him to not waste time here and look for Jayadratha. Both Drona and Arjun killed thousands of men in chariot, elephants etc, Arjun would have been killed by Drona, if he didn't take down his support army on chariots, elephants, He was able to move ahead by destroying the layers of Vyuh only, But, Arjun couldn't kill Drona as long as he had a weapon in his hands. 

Yet Drona lost to both Satyaki and Bhima, and when Dury reproached him, he told Dury that w/ Arjun gone, he once again had a good opportunity to capture Yudhisthir.  Which is why Arjun left Yudhisthir in Satyaki's care, Satyaki left Yudhisthir in Bhima's care and Bhima left Yudhisthir in Dhrishtadyumna's care.  Once Bhima left, Drona unleased a carnage amongst the Pandava army and killed several major Pandava warriors, including Dhrishtaketu, Sahadev of Magadha, Vrihaddhaksha (?) of Kekaya and so on.

In fact, Drona was so rattled he started killing normal soldiers with celestial weapons, which as against rule of war and they decided to kill Drona on Day 15 

Arjun alone killed 7 Akshauhini force of Kauravas on 14th day 

The texts are somewhat unclear on that: it can be easily read that by the 14th day, Arjun had destroyed 7 of the 11 akshauhinis.  As opposed to that day alone

One more thing, Arjun had left Yudhishtira with Satyaki that day saying Satyaki has to protect Yudhishtira so he can fight battle without having to worry about protecting their King, There was a time when Dronacharya had almost captured Yudhishtira but Sahdev took him away, that's what happens in Arjun's absence.

No, Yudhisthir fought Drona pretty competently, and at one point, Drona unleashed a Brahmastra at him, and Yudhisthir responded w/ one of his own.  Drona then went on to battle the other warriors and kill them

Arjun had killed many key players on day 14, Arjun had defeated Duryodhana breaking his chariot and weapons, but Arjun didn't kill him, he could have easily done it but Bheema had vowed to kill Duryodhana. Similarly, Bheema did not kill Karn because it was Arjun's vow to kill him 

One could imagine, how many warriors would be there to protect their King because Duryodhana's death means losing the war, Arjun had killed and evaded all the warriors who were defending Duryodhana. 

Arjun was battling Karna, Salya, Vrihasena alone at one point Duryodhana had made sure none of the Pandavas reach Arjuna but Bheema and Satyaki get there, In the end defeating everyone in their purpose Arjun killed Jayadratha. 

Karna's entire effort was taken up by Bhima, and he also was emotionally drained by seeing several of Dury's brothers sent to protect him get killed by Bhima.  After Jayadrath's death, Karna fought and lost a battle w/ Satyaki, who now had Daruka (Krishna's charioteer) working for him.

Arjun severed Bhurishrava's arm from behind when he was about to kill Satyaki who was unconscious, and he then fought along w/ Jayadrath Ashwatthama, Kripa, Kritavarma, Shalya, Vrishasena and others.  It was in the midst of that that Krishna faked the sunset, otherwise there was no way Arjun could have killed Jayadrath on time

14th day of war shows how important Arjun was In the war of Kurukshetra, They couldn't defeat him so they did everything in their power to hide a man to make sure Arjun kills himself. Drona realizes this and he was focused on capturing Yudhishtira in Arjun's absence. 

If one side in the war thinks that one person's absence can make the difference in result of the battle, tells to story of importance of that person. One side put all of their to make sure they hide one warrior so Arjun kills himself, You see all of the attacked him together, it wasn't to kill him, they didn't think killing him in battlefield was a possibility, that's how important was Arjun in war of Kurukshetra 

All this is true w/o proving that Arjun was more indispensable to the cause than Bhima.  The serials make it look that way, but like I noted above, one can't ignore having avatars of both Vishnu and Shiva on that chariot.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Oh 

I thought Hastinapur was India 🤔 What is Akhand Bharat? I am sorry for swaying from the topic

Oh no, Hastinapur was a pretty small kingdom.  Look at Meerut district today - that's your Hastinapur.  Yeah, it included adjoining territories going up to NCR.

But no, there was no Akhand Bharat at the time, which is another term for Aryavarta.  There were just hundreds of small kingdoms - Hastinapur, Panchala, Madra, Kekaya, Gandhara, Kambhoja, Kashi, Mathura, et al.

But in the war, kingdoms all over India participated.  Only exceptions were Dwarka, Bhojakot (Rukmi) and Manipura (Babruvahana)

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

The entire empire didn't go to war against Pandavas. War was allies of Hatsinapuri vs. allies of Pandavas. Not all the kingdoms of the subcontinent participated. There is a list given somewhere at the beginning of the war. 

IIRC, the only one to participate south of the Vindhyas was Pandya. I think he functioned mainly in providing food to Pandavas. Not sure about this info though.

The ruler of Pandya was killed on day 16 by Ashwatthama.  He was an active participant, and thought of a lot of the Kaurava warriors, like Ashwatthama, as beneath him

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Oh no, Hastinapur was a pretty small kingdom.  Look at Meerut district today - that's your Hastinapur.  Yeah, it included adjoining territories going up to NCR.

But no, there was no Akhand Bharat at the time, which is another term for Aryavarta.  There were just hundreds of small kingdoms - Hastinapur, Panchala, Madra, Kekaya, Gandhara, Kambhoja, Kashi, Mathura, et al.

But in the war, kingdoms all over India participated.  Only exceptions were Dwarka, Bhojakot (Rukmi) and Manipura (Babruvahana)

I thought Hastinapur was Delhi? 

Present day NCR also included Indraprastha back then right? Hastinapur is supposed to be divided to form Hastinapur and Indraprastha, and Meerut is in UP. So as you said, we can consider NCR+parts of UP as whole of Hastinapur? And the DELHI part was handed over to the Pandavas? 

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Responses inside in blue

All this is true w/o proving that Arjun was more indispensable to the cause than Bhima.  The serials make it look that way, but like I noted above, one can't ignore having avatars of both Vishnu and Shiva on that chariot.

One day where they couldn't defeat Jayadratha was enough to make sure Pandava's defeat in the Kurukshetra, That was my point. Lord Shiva excluded Arjun from his boon, not because he was partial or loved Arjun but because of Arjun's hardwork. 

If we remove Arjun from the equation of Kurukshetra then the war would have ended on day 13th in Duryodhana's favor, They would have formed a Chakravyuh and Jayadratha would have used his boon to stop 4 Pandavas. Removing Arjun means removing Abhimanyu too as he was Arjun's son

I read words  "Defeated and satisfied Shankar" somewhere, I read about it years ago so I don't actually remember where but I will try to find it 🤧 

I read one more account on it about fight for a boar and I loved it because 🙃🙃 I adore Lord Shiva 🤧🤧  

I don't believe Arjun or any other human can defeat him but I take Mahabharata as a story only and thought writer wrote it to show how Arjuna was as a warrior, I also read that Lord Shiva told Arjun that there's no better warrior than him 

The Weapon which Lord Shiva gave Arjun, itself needed to be wielded by a strong man, Arjun didn't even use most of his weapons in the great war. 

There was a three layered Vyuh including one Chakravyuh on 14th day, Karna was not in front, he was protecting Jayadratha along with 5-6 important warriors of Kaurava camp. 

Arjun had defeated all of them including Drona in Virat War, he didn't have Krushna as his charioteer. Arjun's aim wasn't killing or defeating Drona, Drona was also tricking Arjun to waste time, Drona couldn't be killed till he had weapons in his hand, He did overpower Arjun, Arjun retreated because his aim was killing Jayadratha that's what Krushna told him, Krushna didn't say that they have lost, He told him not to waste time and move on to most important task at their hand. 

Yudhishtira didn't have Brahmhastra, Drona was about to capture Yudhishtira before Satyaki and Bhima went behind Arjun but Sahdev took him in his chariot. 

Arjun alone fought Karna and other people at the needle point of the Vyuh before Bhima and Satyaki joined him, He was inside before Bhima and Satyaki 

Duryodhana himself stated that none in his army could stand Arjun's wrath, Arjun did an irreparable loss to Kaurava army on Day 14th

Arjun had lord Krushna and Lord Shiva's blessing but why would they support someone who wasn't deserving of this support? They could have supported anyone, why Arjun? These two could have been with a foot warrior and they would have won the war. Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu didn't help him fight the war, they guided him. Arjuna had shown his skills, even as a teenager without Gandiva when they fought Drupad 

They dedicated one day of warfare with their army not to kill Arjun but to make sure he kills himself. This is the power I was talking about, they have to send him away from the battlefield for their victory

I am just putting Arjun's points forward because none else is doing it 😂 I would have stated Bhima's points, if none was speaking in his support, Bhima won this one with 5-0

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

I thought Hastinapur was Delhi? 

Present day NCR also included Indraprastha back then right? Hastinapur is supposed to be divided to form Hastinapur and Indraprastha, and Meerut is in UP. So as you said, we can consider NCR+parts of UP as whole of Hastinapur? And the DELHI part was handed over to the Pandavas? 

This is what I thought but I had an extended version of whole India fighting this war 😂

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

I thought Hastinapur was Delhi? 

Present day NCR also included Indraprastha back then right? Hastinapur is supposed to be divided to form Hastinapur and Indraprastha, and Meerut is in UP. So as you said, we can consider NCR+parts of UP as whole of Hastinapur? And the DELHI part was handed over to the Pandavas? 

No, Hastinapur was near Meerut - actually a bit North-East of it.  Zoom out on this map that I linked to, and you'll see Meerut on the South-West.

Indraprastha otoh was East Delhi

Blue responses

Originally posted by: NoraSM

The Weapon which Lord Shiva gave Arjun, itself needed to be wielded by a strong man, Arjun didn't even use most of his weapons in the great war.

Given the dream Arjun had the night b4 this battle, it's likely that the weapon was used to kill Jayadrath (even though it's not explicitly metioned)

There was a three layered Vyuh including one Chakravyuh on 14th day, Karna was not in front, he was protecting Jayadratha along with 5-6 important warriors of Kaurava camp. 

Yudhishtira didn't have Brahmhastra, Drona was about to capture Yudhishtira before Satyaki and Bhima went behind Arjun but Sahdev took him in his chariot. 

Citation provided below

Arjun had lord Krushna and Lord Shiva's blessing but why would they support someone who wasn't deserving of this support? They could have supported anyone, why Arjun? These two could have been with a foot warrior and they would have won the war. Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu didn't help him fight the war, they guided him. Arjuna had shown his skills, even as a teenager without Gandiva when they fought Drupad 

I never implied that he wasn't deserving.  But if he had their support, then one can't then compare him w/ Bhima and claim that he's superior.

Also, the reason Shiva didn't give Jayadrath a boon about defeating Arjun was that he had already given Arjun the boon that he would be invincible, so had he granted Jayadrath that, that would have negated the earlier boon he gave Arjun.  The gods never did anything like it: they had to work within the parameters they set themselves

They dedicated one day of warfare with their army not to kill Arjun but to make sure he kills himself. This is the power I was talking about, they have to send him away from the battlefield for their victory

I am just putting Arjun's points forward because none else is doing it 😂 I would have stated Bhima's points, if none was speaking in his support, Bhima won this one with 5-0

Okay, citation about Yudhisthir having a Brahmastra

Then that great bowman Drona, filled with rage, cut off the bow of the high souled king Yudhishthira the just. Then that great car-warrior (viz., the son of Bharadwaja) speedily covered the bowless Yudhishthira with many thousands of shafts. Beholding the king made invisible by the shafts of Bharadwaja's son, all thought that Yudhishthira was dead, and some thought that the king had fled before Drona. And many cried out, O king, saying, 'Alas the king hath been slain by the high-souled Brahmana.' Then, king Yudhishthira the just, fallen into great distress, having laid aside that bow cut off by Bharadwaja's son in battle took up another excellent, bright and tougher bow. And that hero then cut off in that encounter all those shafts shot in thousands by Drona. All this seemed exceedingly wonderful. Having cut off those shafts, O king, Yudhishthira, with eyes red in wrath, took up in that battle a dart, capable of riving even a mountain. Equipped with a golden staff, of awful mien, having eight bells attached to it, and exceedingly terrible, the mighty Yudhishthira, taking it up, uttered a loud roar. And with that roar, O Bharata, the son of Pandu inspired all creatures with fear. Beholding that dart upraised by king Yudhishthira the just, all creatures, as if with one accord, said, 'Good be to Drona!' Hurled from the king's arms, that dart resembling a snake just freed from its slough, coursed towards Drona, illumining the welkin and all the directions cardinal and subsidiary, like a she-snake with fiery mouth, Beholding it coursing towards him impetuously, O king, Drona, that foremost of all persons acquainted with weapons invoked into existence the weapon called Brahma. That weapon, reducing that dart of terrible mien into dust, coursed towards the car of the illustrious son of Pandu. Then, O sire, king Yudhishthira of' great wisdom baffled that weapon of Drona, thus coursing towards him by himself invoking the Brahma weapon. And then piercing Drona himself in that battle with five straight shafts, he cut off, with a sharp razor-faced shaft, the large bow of Drona. Then Drona, that grinder of Kshatriyas, throwing aside that broken bow, hurled with great force, O sire, a mace at the son of Dharma. Beholding that mace impetuously coursing towards him, Yudhishthira, O chastiser of foes, filled with rage, took up a mace. Then those two maces, both hurled with great force, encountering each other in mid-air, produced by their collision sparks of fire and then fell down on the earth. Then Drona, filled with fury, slew, O sire, the steeds of Yudhishthira, with four excellent shafts of keen points. And with another broad-headed shaft he cut off he king's bow resembling a pole erected to the honour of Indra. And with another shaft he cut off the standard of Yudhishthira, and with three he afflicted the Pandava himself. Then king Yudhishthira, speedily jumping down from that steedless car, stood weaponless and with arms upraised, O bull of Bharata's race! Beholding him carless, and especially weaponless, Drona, O lord, stupefied his foes, rather the whole army. Firmly adhering to his vow, and endued with great lightness of hands, Drona shot showers of sharp shafts and rushed towards the king, like a furious lion towards a deer. Beholding Drona, that slayer of foes, rush towards him, cries of Oh and Alas suddenly rose from the Pandava army.' And many cried out, saying, 'The king is slain by Bharadwaja's son.' Loud wails of this kind were heard, O Bharata, among the Pandava troops. Meanwhile, king Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, getting up on the car of Sahadeva, retreated from the field, borne away by swift steeds.'"

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

The ruler of Pandya was killed on day 16 by Ashwatthama.  He was an active participant, and thought of a lot of the Kaurava warriors, like Ashwatthama, as beneath him

The Cholas didn't participate in the war though. 

They have their literature which states that the Chola king went to Kurukshetra and was surprised to see such huge armies from both sides. He immidiately went to Krishna and asked that considering the huge army of both sides, who is looking into the logistics? What about the food and other things for the soldiers. On Krishna's agreement he and his soldiers took that responsibly and instead of joining the war started preparing the food for both the sides

A very good presence of mind shown by the king I think bzcQ

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Blue responses

Okay, citation about Yudhisthir having a Brahmastra

Then that great bowman Drona, filled with rage, cut off the bow of the high souled king Yudhishthira the just. Then that great car-warrior (viz., the son of Bharadwaja) speedily covered the bowless Yudhishthira with many thousands of shafts. Beholding the king made invisible by the shafts of Bharadwaja's son, all thought that Yudhishthira was dead, and some thought that the king had fled before Drona. And many cried out, O king, saying, 'Alas the king hath been slain by the high-souled Brahmana.' Then, king Yudhishthira the just, fallen into great distress, having laid aside that bow cut off by Bharadwaja's son in battle took up another excellent, bright and tougher bow. And that hero then cut off in that encounter all those shafts shot in thousands by Drona. All this seemed exceedingly wonderful. Having cut off those shafts, O king, Yudhishthira, with eyes red in wrath, took up in that battle a dart, capable of riving even a mountain. Equipped with a golden staff, of awful mien, having eight bells attached to it, and exceedingly terrible, the mighty Yudhishthira, taking it up, uttered a loud roar. And with that roar, O Bharata, the son of Pandu inspired all creatures with fear. Beholding that dart upraised by king Yudhishthira the just, all creatures, as if with one accord, said, 'Good be to Drona!' Hurled from the king's arms, that dart resembling a snake just freed from its slough, coursed towards Drona, illumining the welkin and all the directions cardinal and subsidiary, like a she-snake with fiery mouth, Beholding it coursing towards him impetuously, O king, Drona, that foremost of all persons acquainted with weapons invoked into existence the weapon called Brahma. That weapon, reducing that dart of terrible mien into dust, coursed towards the car of the illustrious son of Pandu. Then, O sire, king Yudhishthira of' great wisdom baffled that weapon of Drona, thus coursing towards him by himself invoking the Brahma weapon. And then piercing Drona himself in that battle with five straight shafts, he cut off, with a sharp razor-faced shaft, the large bow of Drona. Then Drona, that grinder of Kshatriyas, throwing aside that broken bow, hurled with great force, O sire, a mace at the son of Dharma. Beholding that mace impetuously coursing towards him, Yudhishthira, O chastiser of foes, filled with rage, took up a mace. Then those two maces, both hurled with great force, encountering each other in mid-air, produced by their collision sparks of fire and then fell down on the earth. Then Drona, filled with fury, slew, O sire, the steeds of Yudhishthira, with four excellent shafts of keen points. And with another broad-headed shaft he cut off he king's bow resembling a pole erected to the honour of Indra. And with another shaft he cut off the standard of Yudhishthira, and with three he afflicted the Pandava himself. Then king Yudhishthira, speedily jumping down from that steedless car, stood weaponless and with arms upraised, O bull of Bharata's race! Beholding him carless, and especially weaponless, Drona, O lord, stupefied his foes, rather the whole army. Firmly adhering to his vow, and endued with great lightness of hands, Drona shot showers of sharp shafts and rushed towards the king, like a furious lion towards a deer. Beholding Drona, that slayer of foes, rush towards him, cries of Oh and Alas suddenly rose from the Pandava army.' And many cried out, saying, 'The king is slain by Bharadwaja's son.' Loud wails of this kind were heard, O Bharata, among the Pandava troops. Meanwhile, king Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, getting up on the car of Sahadeva, retreated from the field, borne away by swift steeds.'"

Lord Shiva's weapon couldn't be used on someone with less energy, Arjun used something given by Indra on Jayadrath

I didn't know Yudi had a Brahmhastra, I always thought of him as a... you know..

Arjun had Krishna and Shiva in the great war only, he defeated everyone in Virat War without  Krishna and Hanuman.