A different perspective on Thursday epi.! - Page 3

Originally posted by: neeshaa16

DearShaymla Aunty,

Its indeed an honor and privilege to get this kind of in depth repsonse from you. I am on cloud nine!! While I agree to most of your points wonderfully explained by you ..I beg to differ on some ..Kindly excuse my grammatical errors and my poor English.. You, my dear, have to shed this undue modesty/.

First and foremost if Jalal hasn't forgiven Ruqaiya ..at least wholeheartedly as you say..then what has Jodha gained from the saugandh she gives him?? Is he honest enough??Why did not he admit it to Jodha that he will try to forgive but its not so easy for him.. Johda is trying to save their relationship ..their friendship?? But hasn't that relation already gone sour even before the exit of Jodha from Agra??

Yes, but a relationship, especially one of such longstanding, cannot be turned off like a switch, least of all by Jalal, who greatly values the very few close relationships he does have. The Jalal-Ruqaiya bond will never by severed totally, even if there is a period of estrangement.

As for his telling Jodha that he will only try, the fact is that he himself would not have punished Ruqaiya harshly once his temper had cooled down. But right now, he was in a white hot rage, and Jodha has made sure he will not make any decision in that rage that would hurt him badly later. Even now, he cannot forgive this deception so easily, and left to himself, he would very likely have done something drastic to Ruqaiya, like banishing her from Agra.

Then there would, as I have been the only one to highlight, have been a horrendous empire-wide scandal, which would not only have tarnished the honour of the Mughal sultanate, but might have called into question the legitimacy of Jalal's eventual heir. People might have gossiped that Jodha had followed in Ruqaiya's footsteps and faked her pregnancy and, carrying Ruqaiya's plan to its anticipated conclusion, produced an impostor baby to inherit the throne.

One can thus say that as the future mother of the heir, Jodha does gain a lot because of this.

Hasn't Jalal drifted away from Ruquiya mentally after the moortikaand?He himself had admitted that he had hardly visited her in Jo's absence and even before that..After Benazir track what happened was Jalal was sure that Jodha had a place for him in his heart which he always yearned for.. Now he had started comparing her mentality to Ruqaiya's .As he used to say "soch ko tolna" and gradually finds that Jodha is a much deeper person and Ruqiaya is so much shallow... And after teh moortikaand ..whatever little respect is left for her .she should try to maitain atleast that.. I am trying to say that Jalal has changed so much and this changed does not find Ruquiaya anywhere near his wavelength ..At the same time Ruquiya has never tried to guage why has Jalal changed or what made him change?? She always wants the old Jalal back the Jalal she knew and liked ..the ruthless Emperor without a heart."..

I feel Jalal now does not even seek the companionship with Ruquiya ..he feels irritated with her shallowness..her dominating nature He has surely drfited away from Ruquiya .. and his heart now belongs to Jodha for now he has found a soulmate ,a wife and a dependable friend in Jodha ..does he need Ruqiyaa at all?I am not saying that he should forget his childhood friend becoz of Jodha ..but what did Ruqaiya do to fill the void in his heart ..??

My dear, there is a French saying. Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait pas (the heart has its reasons, of which the mind has no knowledge; it is better in the French as "raison" means both reason, and logic or intelligence) . Ruqaiya cannot simply decide one fine day to fill the void in Jalal's heart; he must be ready to accept it as well. He is not going to fall in love with his Gatti because she is in love with him (which I doubt).

Yes, he values Jodha as a person, for her honesty, her integrity, and now because she too loves him, far more than Ruqaiya. But in that kind of polygamous set up, every wife had her own standing, and the emperor had to cater to all of them. So Ruqaiya, especially if she had had a child, would have had pride of place even if Jalal loved only Jodha. He would have spent much more time with her and the baby: remember what he tells her just before she starts throwing up?

No, he has not drifted away from her because she is shallow.He was quite happy not so long ago, plotting with her against Jodha. Now, it is he who has changed, plus he has fallen in love. Even if Ruqaiya was a carbon copy of Salima, she would still stand no chance against Jodha.

But it is also true that even now, if Ruqaiya were to die suddenly, he would be devastated, and Jodha would not be able to heal that loss. One relationship, no matter how deep, cannot replace all the past ones.

My point here is that what was Jodha trying to save..?? And whats the whole point in jalal thanking Jodha.if he can't forgive Ruqaiya ..In fact thats going to do Ruquiya more harm.. than good.. Instead he could have POURED his heart .scolded her in private and let go off his anger.. may be even slapped her.. for having hurt him so much..for playing off with his emotions.. but this kind of punishment is even worse.. The coldness and aloofness is going to kill her..

No, she is far more resilient that you think,witness her with her hukka in the next episode. Jalal thanks Jodha for stopping him from doing something he would regret for the rest of his life.

Yes about Ruqaiyas upbringing I agree Hamida failed miserably.. but see how Jalal has changed under the influence of good people because somewhere the goodness is there in his heart from the beginning but why hasn't Ruqaiya changed then? SHES not open to change .. I somehow feel this whole upbringing issue is true but some how I feel genes also play an important part here .. Jalal has Hamidas goodness .. I dont know about Ruqaiya. who has influenced her to be what she is..

There is a lot of controversy about nature vs nurture, but I would say it is 50:50.

Why not his father's goodness? Hamida and Humayun were both very soft, and thus total failures in politics and in life. As for Ruqaiya, where were the good but firm people to straighten her out when she was still malleable? Not Jalal, not Hamida, not Gulbadan, who is the most sensible of the lot after the moorti kaand. She has been allowed to grow as she liked and pampered outrageously, thus reinforcing all her bad traits.

Thats all I could think of..phew yet I managed to write quiet a lot..

Aunty, I Would love to have your views on this.. I know I am being too greedy.. But plz share your views on this..A big thank you for reading my insane post.. in advance.. and a bigger one for replying to my post.

.

Originally posted by: vinitaj27

Dear Shyamalaji n Neesha thanks for ur posts n comments,

I just have a few questions on this whole topic

Is it really possible to forgive and not forget or vice versa? I mean there have been a lot of times when we feel like we have forgiven someone but then suddenly out of the blue u end up remembering the deed they have done n u realise that at that moment the bitterness n pain is still there somewhere deep inside u. So is it really possible to forgive without forgetting n forgetting without forgiving?

Secondly I was just wondering whether Hamida Bano was always weighed down by the sacrifice made by ruqqaiyas father to save her son when it came to dealing with ruqqaiya and hence was lenient towards her. She in the show has been shown as a person who prefers standing on the lines n not get involved in anything too deeply. She is an advocate of jodha but overall she doesn't offer an opinion or take a stand against anything. It seems she is almost afraid to say much to her son or even be involved much in his life for the fear of rejection. It feels like she is happy with whatever little she has of her son now that she doesn't make much of an effort to be closer to him. I don't know if I am making sense but it just struck me as odd that a mother would not even put her hand on her sons head as a gesture of support when she found out that his dream of becoming a father is once again broken.

Originally posted by: sashashyam

My dear Neesha,

Thank you so very much, my dear, for such a lavish compliment. I miss you in my new habitat, and I hope that from my next post, Confusing Emotions, re: the Friday episode, about which I have PMed you, you will join me there as well. I would love to have you comment on my threads there.

Coming to your take on this episode No, 261, I would agree with you in toto, except that re: Jalal, you are proceeding from an assumption that is not justified, to wit, that Jalal has forgiven Ruqaiya. He has done no such thing.

I am reproducing below the relevant extract about the Jalal-Ruqaiya scene from my above-mentioned post, since it might be of interest to others here as well. It goes as follows.

But forgetting and forgiving are two very different things. It is more common to forgive but not forget. Here, it is the other way around. Jalal wants to forget it all, for her sake and even more so for his own peace of mind, though in fact he is very far from having reached this stage. He has NOT forgiven her at all.And in this scene, it was clear beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is still very hurt ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As for Ruqaiya' monumental folly, it was a cruelly insensitive thing to do, though Bakshi Banu's and Mahaam's misdeeds were worse, and both could have got Jodha killed for infidelity by a madly angry Jalal,and in the first case, even Hamida Banu does not have faith in Jodha. But what I could never understand, apart from the betrayal part , is this.

How did a woman like Ruqaiya, supposed to be sharp enough to give Jalal political advice, embark upon such a risky exercise without an exit plan? Remember, when Mahaam asks her what she proposes to do as the months go by, she seemed to have given it no thought at all.

It is this that is the worst of all about this stupid track, which was clearly aimed at gilding Jodha's halo some more, and bringing her much closer to Jalal. Which it seems to have accomplished.

Ruqaiya does feel deeply guilty and ashamed of her kartoot, but only because she has been caught out (thanks to that highly artificial speculation by the senior Hakima Sahiba) and she is now afraid that she will be consigned to the outer darkness by Jalal, if not worse. It is only her equation with Jalal that matters to her, which is understandable. What is not understandable is how stupidly she handles this core relationship.

I feel exactly the same as you in your last para, and I have always said so. Except that in the old days, Jalal was only a bit less difficult and temperamental than Ruqaiya, though he always had an innate kindness for all those who are loyal to him and are dependent on him, a grace that Ruqaiya has always lacked. Plus, Jalal would not know how she behaves in the harem, nor would he, as most men would do, care anything about that.

The real fault re: Ruqaiya's upbringing lies with Hamida Banu. She was a small girl when she came into Hamida's care, and she could have been shaped into a caring young woman, who behaved with the kind of dignity and benevolence one would expect of the chief queen. Hamida seems to have been a complete flop in the mothering department - witness the kind of products she turned out, first Ruqaiya and then Bakshi Banu! 😉

Given this, Jalal should,once he started getting so close to Jodha, have sat Ruqaiya down and explained to her, gently but firmly, that she would continue to be his dearest friend and his Begum-e-Khaas, but he cared a lot for Jodha too and she would have to adjust to that and behave well with Jodha. He never even attempts that, taking shelter under his pat excuse that he cannot understand women. He is, like most men faced with such a situation, reluctant to get involved, that is all!😉

Next, he should not, knowing perfectly well that Ruqaiya is jealous of Jodha, have gone to town making such a fuss over her return. Ok, he is in love for the first time, so let that passs.

But again, he goes on lauding her to the skies for her courage during the attack on the way to the orphanage, praise so OTT that even Jodha feels awkward about it. Even among siblings, praising one child too much in front of the other always causes negative reactions.

Even earlier, the excessive fuss made over Jodha's return to Agra, plus the odd shaadi ki saalgirah celebrations, all of them acted like tinder for Ruqaiya's already short fuse. Till then, she keeps herself under control, and behaves very well during the preparations for Jodha's reception, but then the strain gets to be too much, and she plunges into this insane fraud.

Well, this sort of thing would not have been uncommon in medieval royal households. In Maharana Pratap, Maharana Udai Singh's favourite queen, the gorgeous Dheerbaiji, plots and plots relentlessly to get rid of the heir to the throne, Kunwar Pratap, since she wants her own much younger son to succeed Maharana Udai Singh.

At least Ruqaiya has some clear codes and a basic sense of honour; she will not, unlike Mahaam, ever stoop to murder, and she really cares for Jalal. She slaps Hoshiyaar for suggesting, during the BB track, that they should get rid of Jodha's (assumed ) baby, proclaiming that it would be Jalal's baby and that was what mattered to her. That is why I feel that with proper upbringing , her negative traits would have been suppresssed and the positive ones enhanced. But she never got that kind of upbringing.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: sashashyam

My dear Neesha,

You flatter me, my dear, but them who can resist such compliments? Not me! But when you take the trouble to offer such carefully thought out comments, I should take the trouble to respond as well, even if I am always running behind schedule! So here I am. My comments on your are in blue.

I shall look forward to seeing you on my threads from now on.No excuses accepted!😉

Shyamala Aunty


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Aunty,

I can just say..WOW.. If I had a teacher like you.. who could have satisfied all my doubts..I think I would have excelled in any subject.. No. this is not an OTT compliment but truly.. your explanation is so valid and logical that I cant argue further.. You have put all my doubts to rest and in fact I I loved it thoroughly.. Thanks a lot Aunty.. I so want to join your thread.. but sorry I have not received your PM.. and plz give me a link to your thread.. I haven't received it.. This post of yours has made my day.. Thanks again..