Okay, that's the template I'll use in this analysis
-About him as the greatest in all fields, politics & art of war, including handling 4 horses without sarathy, or being mightiest archer even surpass Arjun or Karan or Bhishma as written in one posted earlier in this thread, It's nowhere mentioned! Krishna even had difficulties and sustained injuries fighting Shisupal alone on chariot during Rajasuya(those throwing chakram in the sabha scene is a fake television version). This same Shisupal willingly submit to Bheem when he came to Chedi in his Digvijay.
Citation please? Krishna didn't fight Sishupala on chariot in the Rajasuya sabha. Yeah, there was actually a fierce battle b/w them, which ended w/ Krishna beheading him w/ his discus. As for the reason that Sishupala submitted to Bhima, he did that only b'cos Bhima had just killed Jarasandha, and Sishupala did what you are saying that Krishna was doing. He decided to back the strong horse, and when Bhima came to Chedi, Sishupala not only welcomed him, but joined forces w/ him and helped him in his further conquests.
-He lost to Jarasandha, that's a fact, they migrated from Mathura to the west coast and build Dvarka. That means nobody in Yadav not even Balaram or their greatest archer Satyaki can deal with Jarasandha, whom Karan & Bheem can defeat easily.
But the reason that Jarasandha went into this war in the first place was to avenge the widowing of his 2 daughters. If Jarasandha had actually won this, as you allege, he'd have gone ahead and killed Krishna, or at least tried to. However, it was not a comprehensive victory for Krishna either, given that Jarasandha could return 17 times. Reason Krishna moved to Dwarka was better strategic placement - Mathura was really at the center of contention of various kingdoms in the neighborhood - Hastinapur, Panchala, Madra, and so on. So getting the Yadavas out of there and into an isolated place where they could prosper and be secure was his top priority
-He had to settle a score with Jarasandha. But he need somebody more powerful than him. He must've heard about his cousin's conflict in Hastinapur and how they survived the burning attempt by Kaurav. Of course he must've heard,along the story there's somekind of bond between Vidur-Krishna-Kunti (see how Vidur sent someone to dig tunnel, Kunti invited 5 men & 1 woman, and Krishna came to swayamvara to make sure Pandavs survived, much later Krishna also stayed in Vidur's house when visiting hastinapur). Remember that Kunti was also a Yadav & stayed with Vidur.
If you go by the Mahabharata, the first time Krishna meets them is at Draupadi's swayamvara. If you go by SB, after his marriage to Satyabhama, Krishna goes to Hastinapura, and learns that the Pandavas are dead. Then comes the news to him about the murder of Satrajit, and so he returns. So there is nothing to suggest that Krishna knew that the Pandavas would escape, or survived - by the look of it, he only found that out b'cos he recognized them through their disguises at Kampiliya. So if you want to discount his divinely knowing it, then a good assumption here might be that he had met the Pandavas during their childhood somewhere, maybe when Pandu was still alive.
-Krishna is an "inside man" in Panchal also. He was close to Draupadi and he came to the swayamvar not to compete. He must've designed the swayamvar with Drupad to lure Arjun out. After Arjun won, that's where he came out to introduce himself to Pandavs.
I'd be really interested in your basis for such a premise. When he was fighting Jarasandha, did he have any allies? Did Drupada try & help him out? I am interested in how he came to know Drupada, but your premise that he was close to him doesn't seem to be supported. Especially, when one considers that on the divine side of things, Krishna did nothing to make sure that Dhrishtadyumna would indeed be superior to Drona in warfare.
- Remember Panchal & Hastinapur were like US & Sovyet in the cold war era, and Drona just made it worse with his Gurudhaksina, so 5 exiled powerful princes of Hastinapur & their internal conflicts are important to both Drupad & Krishna!
Again, you flatter Panchala/Drupada. As you yourself said above, Jarasandha was by far the supreme power in Aryavarta. He had major vassals and allies - formerly Kansa, but now, Rukmi, Sishupala, Shalva, Dantavatra, Paundrak, Vinda/Anuvinda, Kashiraj and so on. In fact, the only rulers who managed to straddle the fence were Hastinapur, Panchal, Kekaya, Srinjaya and a handful of others. Other than that, Jarasandha had imprisoned close to a 100 kings. So if you are gonna state that the top 2 powers were Hastinapur & Panchal, you're ignoring the elephant in the room - Jarasandha.
In fact, Drupada's father Prishatha had been dethroned for a while before being supported by Bheeshma & being re-instated, probably during Shantanu's reign.
- From there Krishna rules. He managed to set a fight between Bheem and Jarasandh, and one goal completed!
- Krishna also helped Arjun to clean up the Kandavaprashta forest, with the help of Agni & Varuna who supplied them with weaponry (note how Agni & Varuna conspire against their leader Indra), massacred the naga tribal and win the friendship of Indra, former ally of the Naga! Who do you think pay for the great palace of Indraprashta? Look at the name itself :) Later Indra also supplied Arjun with sophisticated weapons when Arjun visited him and help him massacre the Nivatakavachas tribe with weapon of massive destruction made by Indra!
If you want to ignore the divine aspects to this story, fine, but then you cannot talk about Indra, Agni, Varuna or their celestial enemies.
- Furthermore Krishna arranged Subadra's abduction by Arjun to make sure the political bond with Pandavs, and after that his goal is to put his sister's descendant on the throne of Hastinapur (the largest kingdom at that time) JUST LIKE SHAKUNI ON KAURAV'S SIDE
But the Pandavas were already his cousins, and pretty favorably inclined towards him. If Krishna wanted this, why help the Pandavas get Draupadi - he could just as easily have gotten Subhadra married to either Yudhisthir or Arjun, putting aside the fact that they were already cousins. Had he supported Draupadi getting married to someone else, maybe a different Pandava ally like Virata, that would have eliminated the possibility of her having sons who'd rival Abhimanyu for the throne
Note that before his marriage to Subhadra, probably just after Indraprastha was built, Arjun helped unite Kalindhi w/ Krishna, and later, when Krishna won Satya, Arjun fought all Krishna's rivals for her hand, while Krishna carried her off back to Dwarka. In other words, Arjun played a role pretty similar to Balarama. In politics, you don't waste efforts trying to win over those who are already on your side, and neither Krishna nor Arjun did this.
- First, he must make sure the war happen, otherwise there's no chance to get to the throne! Despite being a messenger of peace he promised Draupadi the war, so he speak in a manner that burn Duryodhan's anger. He's always more to the war, also during the meeting in Matsya, which even Balaram disagree.
The evidence suggests that the Pandavas valued this alliance at least as much as, if not more than Krishna. For instance, after Arjun declined Uttara's hand in marriage, he proposed that she marry Abhimanyu. This would be the newest matrimonial ally of the Pandavas, so it would be logical to assume that whoever she married would be in the line of succession. If the Pandavas were not of that opinion already, then Arjun would have either proposed Prativindya - son of Yudhisthir/Draupadi - for Uttara's hand, or his own son from Draupadi - Shrutakarman. The fact that he suggested Abhimanyu implies that the Pandavas were already of the opinion that if all went well, Abhimanyu would be their successor, cementing a Pandava-Vrishni alliance.
-This is an important note for my later points, Kritavarma & Satyaki work together with Krishna when Duryodhan wanted to capture him as the messenger. Later on Krishna chose Kritavarma to lead the Narayanisena troops that he promised Duryodhan, while mighty Satyaki remains on his side. And yes, Krishna kept his family away from the war! So I dont believe how great is Pradyumna etc, not battle-proven, except losing to Magadha much earlier!
Nothing refutes your above contention - that Krishna manipulated these events b'cos he wanted the succession for Abhimanyu - better than this. Let's assume, for a moment, that Krishna thought that he needed to win over Pandava support for Abhimanyu. Then wouldn't he have thrown his entire support behind the Pandavas, instead of giving the Narayanis to Duryodhan? Also, Kritavarma was not their commander. After Duryodhan had approached Krishna & Balarama, he approached Kritavarma, who told him that he'd join him w/ an akshauni of his. Kritavarma was not a follower of Krishna - indeed, he was one of the plotters in the murder of Satyabhama's father Satrajit. So it's strange that his daughter Charumati married Kritavarma's son Bali. Bottom line - nothing that Kritavarma did was at the behest of Krishna
But back to my point - had Krishna, Pradhyumna, Samba, and all his sons alone fought in that war, the Pandavas would have steamrolled the Kauravas and won it big, and they'd have then owed Krishna big time. Also, Satyaki wouldn't have saved Dhrishtadyumna the countless times his life was threatened by either Drona or Ashwatthama. Drona was wiping out the Panchalas - Krishna could still have happily let that happen, and even let all the other Pandava sons get killed, while keeping Abhimanyu intact.
As for Pradhyumna, he defeated Shalva when the latter was on the rampage in Dwarka, after getting Shiva's boon, and was close to killing him, when a heavenly announcement told him that his father was destined to do it. Also, Yudhisthir mentioned once that only 4 people were capable of penetrating a Chakravyuha - Krishna, Arjun, Pradhyumna & Abhimanyu.
Again, as a comparison point, look at your other example, Shakuni. He wanted Duryodhan to win @ all costs, and went into war w/ all his brothers, sons & entire clan. All of them got wiped out in the war. Wouldn't Krishna have done the same had he had similar ambitions?
- There's one more thing stand in the way of Krishna's goal, Karan the mightiest car-warrior, dangerous for Krishna's best friend, Arjun also! Again he played well with Kunti revealing Karan's identity, depleting his spirit for war! Indra in addition also destroyed Karan's morale by taking away his armor inherited from his biological father he never knew.
Again, if we are discussing the political aspect of this story, and discounting Krishna's divinity, which is a valid method in analyzing this, we can't bring in Indra or Surya or any of that here
- Kurukshetra War is just Krishna's version of Game of Dice. It's his stage, not Shakuni. I won't talk too much on how they tricked Bhishma, Drona, Karan to death, you all know already.
-Like I said before, Krishna wanted his sister's descendant to be the king, at least after the Pandavs. Out of his calculation, Abhimanyu died trapped in Chakravyuh when he was away coz Arjun ordered him to drive the chariot chasing the Trigarthas to the other side
Precisely - how does that support Krishna's goals? Wouldn't it have been easier to keep Abhimanyu alive? In fact, I have a scenario where Krishna could have achieved precisely that. Loan Daruka to Arjun for the war, since the latter needed a good charioteer, and take Abhimanyu as his own charioteer and fight the war. Krishna could have protected Abhimanyu and at the end of the war, Abhimanyu would have been the only Pandava prince surviving.
-Good thing that Uttara was pregnant with Abhimanyu's child!
- Krishna must MAKE WAY to the baby to become Future King!
Again, why Parikshit - why not Abhimanyu?
- It's not easy, there was Ghatotkach, FIRSTBORN son of Padavs, dearer to King Yudhisthir than any other nephews,even than Yudhis's own son Prativindhya, Ghatotkach is the only child who spent much time helping them in the forest during exile. But, Krishna got him through Karan's prototype weapon!
Being a rakshasha, Ghatotkacha couldn't even live in Hastinapur, much less rule. During Yudhisthir's reign in Indraprastha, Hidimbaa & Ghatotkacha remained in the forests - they never joined Bhima. And after the war, when even Arjun's absentia wives Uloopi & Chitrangada were back after the Ashwamedha & lived w/ Arjun until he retired, Hidimbaa however did not join Bhima. So Ghatotkacha living or dying would have made no difference - there was no way he'd have been considered
- Next was Prativindhya & his 4 brothers, sons of Draupadi! This is where Krishna must play his pawn Kritavarma! Ashvatthama promised Duryodhan to kill Pandavs, and he along with Kripa & Kritavarma planned a night raid!
- Ashvatthama mistakenly killed Pandavs's 5 sons, thinking that it's their fathers. Ashvatthama never knew them closely, but KRITAVARMA KNEW THEM PERSONALLY. THE 5 SONS WERE RAISED IN DWARKA along with Abhimanyu! He won't mistake them for Pandavs!
Wrong. Ashwatthama knew that he had killed Draupadi's sons, not Kunti's, and he told Duryodhan exactly that after the massacre. He didn't find the Pandavas so couldn't massacre them. Kritavarma & Kripa were busy elsewhere in the camp, massacring the other warriors. Ashwatthama knew the Pandavas up close, from the years they were co-students of Drona, so he'd would have known - and did - that the 5 princes that he killed were not the Pandavas - they'd not have lost so easily to him.
- Earlier I've shown the Yadavs brotherhood of Krishna, Satyaki, & KRITAVARMA. Krishna also bring Satyaki and 5 Pandavs away from the camp in the night when Asvhatthama & Kritavarma came!
- After the night raid, Krishna cursed Ashvatthama to direct eveyone's blame on him, while KRITAVARMA THE DOUBLE AGENT CAN GO HOME WITH SATYAKI happily ever after :D
- Much later we found Satyaki & Kritavarma got drunk together, mocking each other's evil deeds on the war, resulting in Yadavs' massive brawl.. It's a karma, and Krishna was involved also after his son Pradyumna & his brother Gada died.
- But actually his effort was a success, at the end Pariksit grandson of Subadra sit on the throne of Hastinapur & Krishna's grandson Vajra got the Indraprashta..
And once again, how did it work to Krishna's advantage to have Vajra succeed Ugrasena, instead of Pradhyumna or Anirudha? Or have Parikshit succeed Yudhisthir, instead of Abhimanyu?
Cricket
Marathi TV
Ufff Yeh Love Hai Mushkil
