12th July- Baji's talent of singing!!! - Page 2

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MaddyO thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#11

Originally posted by: Planck

I completely agree with your each and every words. Exactly, if Radhabai has issues with Balaji and maybe he betrayed her(can't believe that could've happen, specially after what've shown for the 100 episodes where both are so respectful towards each other and their wonderful chemistry, ahh...), then why her cold behavior with others specially with her children. I simply can't connect with these old characters, they are simply looking new to me with the new faces. I can't believe that Radhabai can be changed like this way whatever maybe the incident behind it they may say, we couldn't forget that she was the one who was the first official guru of Baji who even staked her life to make Baji overcome his fears, such a fearless, loving and caring lady she was. Such a bad time she had faced with Chimna and Bhiu when they were tagged as Deshdrohis and they had no food in their house, even that couldn't make her behave like this afterwards. And whom I miss most alongwith Anuja's Radhabai is little Bhiu. Little Bhiu is irreplaceable, she is born talented. And Baji is not at home for one year, but still during all these years Baji and Kashi didn't get any time knowing each other, I can't believe it...They hadn't befriended each other during all these years!!! This love jaap is getting on my nerves. Even living with someone for so long make the other knowing what they like or not.


They are making viewers disconnected with Radhabai and Baji.

If they had shown the reason for this hardened attitude of Radhabai, she would be better understood. This still wouldn't explain behaviour with Bhiu. Mother daughters are best confidants!

If Radhabai is demanding grandchild from Bhiu, who is younger to Kashi - surely Kashi Baji can't be strangers! Their marriage should be consummated and they should be atleast affectionate with each other!

Kashi doesn't even know his favorite sweet?! Bajirao says he has no fond memories?! How is this possible?


kahiliginger thumbnail
Posted: 8 years ago
#12
Radhabai never picked on her daughter for being childless. Even Bhiu's husband dared not remarry for begetting an heir as she was the reigning Peshwa/'s sister. Yehi sach hai!






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Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#13
MaddyO thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: kahiliginger

Matani being Chhatrasal's lovechild is a legend. Sources stating this have no historical veracity.

The records about the origin of the Nawabs of Banda simply hint at Bajirao being presented a Qubool Surat (beautiful) woman after having assisted Chhatrasal against an attack by Bangash. Had Mastani been Chhatrasal's daughter why would she refer to him as Kakaju (paternal uncle)? The word Kakaju was an affectionate term used in correspondence between Bajirao and Chhatrasal's sons because Chhatrasal had insisted on an agnatic relationship with Rau for political reasons- to ensure continuing Maratha protection for his borders. Chhatrasal had also established such agnatic relations with other important leaders for the same reason.

Bajirao negotiated a tribute, including a part of Chatrasal's kingdom to compensate the Maratha king Shahu for military expenses and the cost of providing security to Bundelkhand. This was a standard practice but was mistaken for Mastani's dowry. In fact the money went to Shahu's treasury, not to Bajirao.

In novels about Mastani writers refer to her as royal born and being pampered by Chhatrasal's sons.There is no historical document supporting this. If Mastani was a Rajput king's daughter she would have been married off at age 8-9 before she obtained puberty, put in purdah and would never be trained to sing and dance like a professional entertainer. There are clear references to Mastani performing on occasions of Janmashtami and Ganesh festival in Shaniwarwada in the Peshwa Daftar, and she is referred to as Rau's khasgi kalavantin (privately maintained dancing girl). Anyone with knowledge of Maratha history knows this much. Had she been a Rajput princess she would never come out of Purdah and perform. Dancing was not a Pranami devotional practice.

I wrote about this on Harshu's earlier thread also. Much before BM movie came along, I had heard about Bajirao Peshwa from my grandmother. Of course about Mastani too.

Mastani was known as dancer, Bajirao built a Mahal for her. You could be right maybe it was built after she bore him a son. She was famed for her beauty.


Had Mastani been a Rajputni of the Pranami sect why was Shamsher brought up Muslim?

This is a very important point. Bang on! Especially when the standard practice - followed till today - that son daughter usually follow father's religion (even a Kareena Kapoor names her son Taimur!). Wouldn't her son have been named with some Bramhin name and followed Hinduism if she was also following her Rajput lineage?



In 1729 when Bajirao defended Bundelkhand he was 29 years old. Chhatrasal was nearly 80 and Mastani was about 16. Thus when she was born Chhatrasal would be 65-66 years old.

Though Mastani had a place in Bajirao's heart he only built her a separate apartment in order to elevate her status after she bore him a son. The Peshwa family did not approve but gave tacit agreement to the arrangement. Differences flared up only after Bajirao took to drinking and eating meat when in Mastani's company, turning away from Kashi and her kids. Had he continued to maintain relations with both women and controlled his drinking the story would have been different. It was not wrong for his mother and brother to try and restrain him from his self-defeating habit.

Nanasaheb going against his father - with Bajirao being so powerful wouldn't be without reason, especially when Mastani was in Pune for years already.

Radhabai being ambitious is consistent with the rise of her husband from a mere salt works revenue collector to the Peshwa of the Maratha Empire. She brought up her children single handedly and mentored her sons and grandson Nana, the next Peshwa after Bajirao. Do not belittle her by calling her a power hungry woman, her authority was charismatic, not position-related.


Wonderfully written. Radhabai was no ordinary woman, she had huge influence in bringing up Bajirao Chimanaji and Nanasaheb, all three such extraordinary men.

Abhay (history-geek) has written some information about her in his threads.

BeyondHorizon thumbnail
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Posted: 8 years ago
#15
The precap was probably worse than the first precap we saw in the leap where Baji says he has no memories of Kashi. Even when they were newly weds they behaved better. Their bickering was better than this ignorance. I am hating Bajirao more n more each day. And I am sure I will have zero tolerance for his Mastani.
486792 thumbnail
Posted: 8 years ago
#16

Originally posted by: kahiliginger

Matani being Chhatrasal's lovechild is a legend. Sources stating this have no historical veracity.

The records about the origin of the Nawabs of Banda simply hint at Bajirao being presented a Qubool Surat (beautiful) woman after having assisted Chhatrasal against an attack by Bangash. Had Mastani been Chhatrasal's daughter why would she refer to him as Kakaju (paternal uncle)? The word Kakaju was an affectionate term used in correspondence between Bajirao and Chhatrasal's sons because Chhatrasal had insisted on an agnatic relationship with Rau for political reasons- to ensure continuing Maratha protection for his borders. Chhatrasal had also established such agnatic relations with other important leaders for the same reason.

Bajirao negotiated a tribute, including a part of Chatrasal's kingdom to compensate the Maratha king Shahu for military expenses and the cost of providing security to Bundelkhand. This was a standard practice but was mistaken for Mastani's dowry. In fact the money went to Shahu's treasury, not to Bajirao.

In novels about Mastani writers refer to her as royal born and being pampered by Chhatrasal's sons.There is no historical document supporting this. If Mastani was a Rajput king's daughter she would have been married off at age 8-9 before she obtained puberty, put in purdah and would never be trained to sing and dance like a professional entertainer. There are clear references to Mastani performing on occasions of Janmashtami and Ganesh festival in Shaniwarwada in the Peshwa Daftar, and she is referred to as Rau's khasgi kalavantin (privately maintained dancing girl). Anyone with knowledge of Maratha history knows this much. Had she been a Rajput princess she would never come out of Purdah and perform. Dancing was not a Pranami devotional practice.

Had Mastani been a Rajputni of the Pranami sect why was Shamsher brought up Muslim?
In 1729 when Bajirao defended Bundelkhand he was 29 years old. Chhatrasal was nearly 80 and Mastani was about 16. Thus when she was born Chhatrasal would be 65-66 years old.

Though Mastani had a place in Bajirao's heart he only built her a separate apartment in order to elevate her status after she bore him a son. The Peshwa family did not approve but gave tacit agreement to the arrangement. Differences flared up only after Bajirao took to drinking and eating meat when in Mastani's company, turning away from Kashi and her kids. Had he continued to maintain relations with both women and controlled his drinking the story would have been different. It was not wrong for his mother and brother to try and restrain him from his self-defeating habit.

Radhabai being ambitious is consistent with the rise of her husband from a mere salt works revenue collector to the Peshwa of the Maratha Empire. She brought up her children single handedly and mentored her sons and grandson Nana, the next Peshwa after Bajirao. Do not belittle her by calling her a power hungry woman, her authority was charismatic, not position-related.

@Bold,Thanks for clearing my confusion. 😃
I always used to wonder that why on earth did Mastani follow Islam when she was a Rajput King's daughter.It's mandatory for children to follow their father's religion.Had she been Chhatrasal's daughter then she would have been raised as per the Rajput norms and way of life.Rajput women don't dance and sing at occasions.
Above all there is no way any Rajput would have allowed his daughter to have the status of a concubine even if it's the Peshwa.They are fiercely protective of their honour.Had Mastani been Chhatrasal's daughter then she would have been raised like his other children.Why would she be any different from the rest of them??She would have followed Hinduism and behaved like a Rajputani.I also believe that the stories of Mastani being a warrior and stuff are just fabricated.She was beautiful and a talented singer.That's all.


@purple,I agree.The Peshwa Family didn't interfere as long as Bajirao's relationship with Mastani didn't affect their life.But why on earth would they sit quietly and watch while Bajirao went down on a self destructive path?? His addiction to drinking would have led to his life going haywire.Also he was neglecting his wife and kids.Kashibai wouldn't have said anything as it was not in her nature to protest.So someone had to take a stand from the family and Radhabai-Chimmaji did that.I don't find anything wrong with that.And don't all parents always do their best to prevent their children from going astray???


@Completely agree.Radhabai was not power hungry from any angle.Power hungry women were Tarabai and Soyarabai.
Radhabai on the other hand was a smart and resourceful woman of immense dedication,character and integrity.She single handedly managed the Peshwa's household and she was Balaji's backbone.She was a woman of spirit who inspires respect.Radhabai had been wrongly vilified in SLB's movie along with Chimmaji.Just because she was anti Mastani,she was not a bad person.Infact she protested against Mastani only when Bajirao got those ill habits.
You don't have to be a warrior or fight battles to show that you are a strong person.Sometimes your actions and your personality reflect your strength.Both Radhabai and Kashibai were extremely strong women.They never fought any battles on the field but their personal life was no less than a war itself in which they both survived and thrived.

And when it comes to who is stronger between Kashi and Mastani,I would go for Kashi hands down.It's my personal opinion that Mastani chose the coward's route by committing suicide after Bajirao's death and not choosing to live for her son's sake.
Kashi,on the other hand,had the greatness to not only accept Shamsher but raise him in the House of The Peshwa.It's she who turned Shamsher into Krishna Rao.


Edited by --BlackSheep-- - 8 years ago
486792 thumbnail
Posted: 8 years ago
#17
Guys I am getting a bad feeling that showing Radhabai's indifference towards Bhiu and portraying her as a cold woman is actually a tactic by CVs to gain sympathy for Bajirao and Mastani's love story. 🤢 Therefore Radhabai is being made the bali ka bakra.
What is beyond my level of understanding is that Bajirao started dreaming of a life with Mastani out of the blue while he is being totally cold towards Kashi.How is that possible???
Baji and Kashi have been married for years.So they must have got plenty of time to know each other.Then why are they showing Kashi to be lovelorn and Baji treating her like an unwanted guest??🤢 Kashi and Baji's equation was better portrayed in the movie.She was his closest friend and confidante and he loved her.

I guess it's a common belief in historicals that the main protagonist should and must have only one true love.Even in CAS they sidelined Devi for portraying Kaurvaki as the only woman Ashok ever loved whereas Ashok had married both of them out of love and in different stages of his life.
Why can't they understand that the protagonists are human beings at the end of the day?? And a human heart is never consistent.It always flutters.In Bajirao's case,Kashibai was already an integral part of his life when Mastani entered.And when he made Mastani the object of his desire it was his flaw.Not Kashibai's.Here the CVs are trying to show that Kashibai is not good enough for Baji but Mastani is.🤢 Either way I am gonna loathe the BM eternal love story.👎🏼
kahiliginger thumbnail
Posted: 8 years ago
#18
It is only natural for people to become agitated when TV shows refuse to respect historical facts. Their plot is purely fictional because truth is often boring or just not entertaining enough!
Since I am writing a story about Kashi I have read extensively about this subject. It is not right to blame any of the characters close to Bajirao, they were all victims of circumstances.

Kashi was a devoted wife. She was no match for a dominant personality like Radhabai. Kashi knew her husband fell for another woman in the 18th year of their marriage. It was hard on her but she forgave Rau, even bore him three sons after that. She could not shut him out like Priyanka did in the film. Such things did not happen back then. Wives could weep, plead, mope, fly into a rage or become depressed- but they could never deny conjugal rights to the husband, divorce him and move on to another man.

Mastani was a devoted lover too, we should not despise her. As a mistress her life revolved around serving Rau. With her he forgot he was a Konkanastha Brahmin and assumed the persona of a polygamous Rajput nobleman enjoying a voluptuous life of kebab, sharab and shabaab.

His orthodox family saw red. It was ok for a man to see his mistress on a few nights of the month. But in his last few years when Rau moved in with Mastani it led to public scandal. Public figures are expected to conduct their affairs discreetly. Instead Rau went to town about his Mastani affair and Pune was outraged to see him neglect Kashi.

The Peshwa family troubles multiplied when Rau could not be convinced to make amends. Everyone suffered, including Kashi, her children,Radha and Chimaji- not just the romantic pair BM. But popular media insists on making them martyrs, completely ignoring that it was a really a family tragedy.

SLB never bothered to mention that the family later fostered Shamsher, nor that the weary Chimaji died within months after Rau. His wife went Sati leaving an infant daughter of 3 months to be raised by Kashi. Chimaji was in his mid-thirties when he died while Rau was 40. So much for Bajirao getting sympathy for being alpayushi! Radha had to endure the death of her husband, both her sons, her daughter Bhiu and even a few grandchildren.
kahiliginger thumbnail
Posted: 8 years ago
#19
Kusum Chopra's novel about Mastani would have been pretty convincing had it not been a work of fiction. But a work of fiction is not history no matter how much one insists.
Bajirao coming to Chhatrasal's rescue was a calculated act. He incurred a huge expense in the campaign and expected to be compensated. We can argue all day about Mastani/'s dowry but the truth is Bajirao never got the portion of Bundelkhand he was promised even after repeated reminders. Why would Chhatrasal give him a dowry he was unwilling to part with? Peshwa Balaji Bajirao finally managed to obtain the said jagirs after Bajirao/'s death and the ownership was then transferred to Shamsher.

I understand the need to validate Mastani. She bore no malice and was a devoted lover. But to become Rau/'s legit wife she had to be born to Brahmin parents. If she was not then the marriage was not valid in 18th century Maharashtra even if there was a ceremony. Peshwa Daftar, Persian sources and contemporary British writers substantiate this. Had Shamsher been considered a legit son he would have been raised a Hindu. But we know otherwise. We do know that relations between Balaji Bajirao and Shamsher Bahadur remained cordial until the latter's death at Panipat.

Yes, Mastani was blamed for the Peshwa/'s changed lifestyle. But now we know it was not her fault. It was the proximity of Rau to Rajput nobility that made him assume their habits. The trouble involved Bajirao going against his family tradition and also neglecting Kashi and her kids.



kahiliginger thumbnail
Posted: 8 years ago
#20
Shaniwar Wada became the Peshwa home in 1732. Before that the family lived in a temporary mansion called Dhadphale Wada in Pune. It is on record that a separate residence was built for Mastani in the North East corner of Shaniwar Wada between 1734-36. Mastani was moved there in 1736 and soon after that she joined Bajirao on the Delhi-Malwa campaign. The same mansion was used by Ali Bahadur, grandson of Mastani.
It is not my metier to convince anyone about Radhabai/'s contribution to Maratha history. If anything makes you believe otherwise so be it!




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