Living in denial! - Page 15

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Dabulls23 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: koolsadhu1000

SW sorry respectfully to butt in but


hilly LOVES India and wouldn't dream of saying anything anti India . Ever .

i feel she is an easy target for being misunderstood simply coz she is not indian while those who are indian and yet pass questionable remarks r not told respectfully or otherwise in a single word coz the common platform is love for the same character . The same member had made regional issues and accused me of being anti bengali when i love everything bengali and have bengali relatives ...for what , may i ask ?? A fictional show and love for a character ? Coz my views on a character r different ? I understand exactly how hilly must be feeling coz i was misunderstood the same way . It was my mistake then that i did not take a stronger stand but tried explaining . U see , i hate fights . I generally bow out . But i could not resist when i saw a member who though blunt about her dislike for a character , is misunderstood for disrespecting a country . Anyways my views on this thread r exhausted . I would prefer bowing out now .

Kools & Kalapi the same person has brought so many wrong issues just to attack members..Putting words into other's mouth-posts...Hilly is an easy target as I feel just because she was friendly enough in volunteering that personal info not being from India..What ever happened to the same people who toot horns abt India being all abt sacrifice and balidaan & of Purvi but not respectful to a fellow member out of humanity..Cant differentiate between show, characters or fellow members? Why because IF is a virtual world so members are not real ?😳 I am ashamed of this behavior by any one let alone a fellow indian 😳
Why give explanation to people who are just there to judge and cause havoc by instigating..So they can sit on the fence and make fun of people by instigating? how horrible is that?
Hope they are feeling really good right abt now for their utmost disrespectful behavior..
Edited by Dabulls23 - 12 years ago
pallavi25 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Two months ago I was given big lectures on Ray's post abt Indian morality. I guess now its my turn! 😃
Tyaag or Balidaan is a big part of Indian value system, ideals, culture. Thats why most Hindi serial heroines are all Tyaag ki Murtis, sacrificial Devis who sacrifice entire life, love, even marriage for the sake of those she loves or cares abt.

This is particularly true of PR, from the beginning Archu has been portrayed as a Tyaag ki Murti, who sacrifices all her personal happiness, even her marital harmony for the sake of greater good (as she sees it)
After Archu, Purvi was doing that...shes now the Tyaag ki Murti...first she tyaaged Arjun for Aayi-Baba's happiness, then tyaaged her baby for Ovi's happiness and so on,
Now latest , a new one in Ekta show, a male character is Tyaag ki Murti, the Noble Ex-doctor Onir Babu...hes taken the Mahaan-est title now. He has tyaaged his love for Mishti and his career for the sake of Arjun- Purvi's happiness.
Why so much Tyaag shown in Ektas shows and in general most Indian shows?
Because that is part of the Indian ethos, pathos...we Indians thrive on sentiments, high ideals like Tyaag and Balidaan.
When the heroine or sometimes even the hero tyaags his or her happiness and suffers terribly, Indian viewers cry alongwith them and find cathartic release from their own sorrows or sufferings.
That is the psychological analysis of PR and Ekta shows as I see it! 😊
Edited by pallavi25 - 12 years ago
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Posted: 12 years ago

@sowmya_jairam

Sharadrocks, , first of all being in love once does not mean it is forever. Otherwise, there would not be divorces and multiple marriages/relationships. If Onir and Ovi knew that the persons they were going to marry didn't love them at the time of marriage, it is not wrong of them to have the expectation that they will never be loved. And it is definitely expected that their spouses trust them and respect them, even if they don't love them right away.

It's not just a commitment from one side when a marriage happens. Purvi did not do a favor to onir by marrying him, and it was not enough that she did not have a physical relationship with arjun or someone else to work on her marriage. He didn't even know who had fathered purvi's baby when he married her; and he didn't care when he did know it was arjun. When she agreed to marry onir, she also gave a commitment--to work on the marriage, to try and make it happy and successful for both of them, to trust him and try and love him. It does not matter if onir asked her to marry him or that it was a marriage of convenience; it was a commitment and hopefully, a lifelong one. That's what everyone hopes for when they get married, isn't it? Same with arjun and ovi. To me, it never seemed like arjun or purvi truly worked on their marriages. It's not that they tried and failed, they didn't try at all. And no, they don't need to meet every so often to discuss pari. Not when they knew their relationship was misunderstood by their spouses and the rest of the family. If they wanted to make their marriage work, they would have stayed well away from each other. It is not very difficult to do if one really wants to.

Like I said, if they cannot stand being away from each other, then they should divorce their spouses and get together. But neither are they working on their marriages, nor are they separating from their spouses and letting them move on while they figure out their lives. What is the meaning of arjun begging ovi to come back when he knows he will always love purvi, like you said? What is the meaning of purvi feeling bad that he didn't care about her as before when she really did not care about him at all? Isn't that much too much expectation? Since onir and ovi knew that purvi and arjun didn't love them when they married them, they should be happy with what they're getting even if it's nothing? They shouldn't expect anything more from their spouses?


No, love does not necessarily last forever, This is exactly what Onir and Ovi gambled on. But they seem to have lost, as of now! Nothing much you can do about that! Of course they have the right to expect emotional and physical fidelity from their partners. But if said partners are unable to provide the same, it would be sensible to cut your losses and move on! Why hold onto someone who claims to want you and then acts to the contrary! Which is what I think they are doing, More power to them! . Yes, people go into a marriage expecting it to last forever. But it does not, many a time! Nothing much you can about it. This is true of any marriage. In this case, they went in with odds stacked against them. They have to bear the consequences of their decisions! I am not saying that they do not have the right to expect anything. Everybody has the right to everything. But the reality is often quite different. I found Ovi's expectations extremely unrealistic to begin with. This was her best friend whose relationship she was wrecking for her own happiness. And then, overnight, she expects him to forget his love and serenade her? In the first place, even when he's agreed to the deal for Purvi's sake, he is bound to resent Ovi for initiating It! All of us do things that we are coerced into doing at times. But do we not resent having to do it? After Purvi's subsequent pleas, Arjun tried to do what he could. He initiated physical consummation. I think we are adults here, Both of us know that the body is susceptible to stimuli. It does not require emotion to consummate. The body is more under the control of the brain as opposed to emotion. If he still thought of Purvi, he was plain helpless before his emotions. He is a man who probably does not have a stranglehold over his emotions. He is a weak man maybe. How does that make him evil though? He certainly won't win any awards for the best husband, You and I would probably not want him. But Ovi wanted him and she got him. I feel terrible for Ovi as a woman who was stubborn enough not to accept reality, who made a decision impelled by her emotions without giving a thought to reason. But, if I can feel terrible for her, why can I not do the same for Arjun? Why should I reserve my compassion for Ovi alone when she is the one who triggered it all off? I feel both anger at their collective stupidity and compassion at their collective pain!


Yes, Purvi did not do Onir a favour either. In my opinion, neither did he. She would have survived even otherwise. All this crap about najayaz and society is just that, there are enough single mothers around who survive. the flower seller on my street got dumped by her lover when she was pregnant, She is just seventeen and has no education. She has kept the baby and continues to sell flowers. her family has not thrown her out on the streets, Her fellow chawl walis don't throw stones at her nor does society. We all happily buy the flowers that she sells. The flowers smell just as sweet, even if they are sold by someone whom the morally upright would gleefully call a s**t, a despo and what not!

Coming to Onir, he chose to marry her and not vice versa. I would feel personally very affronted if someone offered me pity or gratitude sex. As Onir rightly was! Yes, Purvi agreed to work on her marriage. And she probably did till her past came back. She may have eventually moved on and even tried to love Onir. I would say the same about Arjun. Unfortunately fate intervened and bound them, together with a child besides. Tough luck is all I will say!

I think Arjun is terrified of the moral police aka Sulochana and Archana. Maybe that is why he wants to bring Ovi back. And he feels guilty for not being able to give her hat she wants. But I think he is being unfair to her, She wants all or nothing. And if he cannot give her all, he should let her go!


On meeting for the sake of the child, I still maintain that forbidding contact is not the way to go about it. Allow them to find their peace. And respect their personal space as two adults who are in in relationships with other people and who yet share a child. It happens all the time. Treat it as normal! I am a firm believer in personal liberty and freedom. As an adult, I do not allow my family to tell me what to do. i would be affrotned if they had no faith in me! So, my opinion is going to be different on this always. I guess we should just agree to disagree 😊

Btw, on the hypocrisy count, who is not on this show or even amongst us all? All of us are! Some of us are willing to admit to it while others are not. That is the only difference!





That's a court in PR land. I doubt a real court would endorse intentions while assessing crimes; maybe length of punishment but not if it's a crime or not. And neither onir nor purvi have ever admitted to themselves that they were wrong. Telling others the intentions expecting them to understand why they did what they did is ok; but when did they ever acknowledge --to themselves--that they did wrong with ovi? With arjun? And that was wrong, no two ways about it. They don't need to be understood by themselves, do they?


Intent is always going to be considered while deciding the quantum of punishment in a court of law. That is why you have premeditated murder as opposed to manslaughter! As for accepting their wrong,, maybe the creatives don't want to waste time on such niceties. But I want to give them the benefit of doubt since they have never said they were right! If they think they are, then they certainly deserve to be institutionalised




My comments in black
Edited by sharadrocks - 12 years ago
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Posted: 12 years ago
@sashashyam

Sorry for the delay in responding.

I have not been following the show actively in a very long time, I catch sporadic epis and update myself by visiting the forum 😊

On Saraswati Chandra, I have never watched the show. I am not an SLB fan. I find that he is all sound and fury but very little substance. But yes, he is a master technician and he mounts his frames exquisitely. So his production should be head and shoulders above what we get to see otherwise on TV.

While SLB gets his aesthetics right, I am unable to connect with his politics the way I do with.n Ashutosh Gowarikar, Vishal Bharadwaj, Anurag Kashyap and even Rakesh Omprakash Mehra.

On Hasratein, it would probably do well if they made Savi an out and out vamp and Asmita, the wronged wife! You see, we have very little patience with grey! We only want to worship at the feet of devis and devtas.


Btw, am reading Khaled Husseini's latest. One of the central characters has an affair with her adopted mother's ex-lover. This sort of trigger's off her mother's death by suicide. I was imagining an Indian TV show based on this novel. Imagine the discussions on India Forums! I have not been able to stop laughing ever since the thought struck me!
Edited by sharadrocks - 12 years ago
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: pallavi25

Two months ago I was given big lectures on Ray's post abt Indian morality. I guess now its my turn! 😃

Tyaag or Balidaan is a big part of Indian value system, ideals, culture. Thats why most Hindi serial heroines are all Tyaag ki Murtis, sacrificial Devis who sacrifice entire life, love, even marriage for the sake of those she loves or cares abt.

This is particularly true of PR, from the beginning Archu has been portrayed as a Tyaag ki Murti, who sacrifices all her personal happiness, even her marital harmony for the sake of greater good (as she sees it)
After Archu, Purvi was doing that...shes now the Tyaag ki Murti...first she tyaaged Arjun for Aayi-Baba's happiness, then tyaaged her baby for Ovi's happiness and so on,
Now latest , a new one in Ekta show, a male character is Tyaag ki Murti, the Noble Ex-doctor Onir Babu...hes taken the Mahaan-est title now. He has tyaaged his love for Mishti and his career for the sake of Arjun- Purvi's happiness.
Why so much Tyaag shown in Ektas shows and in general most Indian shows?
Because that is part of the Indian ethos, pathos...we Indians thrive on sentiments, high ideals like Tyaag and Balidaan.
When the heroine or sometimes even the hero tyaags his or her happiness and suffers terribly, Indian viewers cry alongwith them and find cathartic release from their own sorrows or sufferings.
That is the psychological analysis of PR and Ekta shows as I see it! 😊


@blue

Totally agree!
Edited by sharadrocks - 12 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Dear Soumya,

I would like to touch on just one point here. This is about an single, unmarried mother surviving in an Indian city with no problems.

The case Sharad cites, of a flowerseller, would have held even in 1950s and 1960s,and that too even in conservative Chennai. These relaxed social mores have long applied to that stratum of society and they figured a lot in the revolutionary Tamil writer Jayakanthan's novels. At the personal level, our maidservant, when she had a huge blow up with her drunkard husband, threw her thali (mangalsutra) in his face, took her two kids and went to live with her brother's family, where she was welcome because she was an earning member. And this was in 1963.

The super rich can also thumb their nose at a scandal.

But the same relaxed mores would not apply to a middle class woman. Neither then, and not even now. The standard procedure would have been for her parents to get an abortion done, or if that was impossible, to take her away somewhere, suppress the whole truth by giving away the baby and then bring her back. In all our extended family and our very large circle of friends and those we know and their families, I have never encountered a single, unmarried mother facing society down and bringing up her fatherless child. And at 60+, I have had a lot to time to locate such cases! This is not to say that they do not exist, but only that they would be very rare, and life would be very tough on the woman involved.

It would also be VERY unfair to the child as well, which would face taunts as soon as it was old enough to understand things. I hold, firmly and unequivocally, that no child should be treated as illegitimate. But the fact is that Indian society is, as of now, nowhere near as accepting of or fair to such kids. Other children are the worst of all; little monsters. And things would be no different as he/she grows up. It would be encountered at every turn - for example at the time of school admission, though the law now says that the mother's name should suffice.

Purvi is not of the poor working classes, she is clearly middle class and given her upbringing, she attaches a lot of importance to social approval and acceptance. Unless she pretended to be a widow, she would have had a very hard time of it, holding down a job, finding a place to stay, minding the child, fending off both the local gossips and the unwelcome attentions from men who would take her to be loose and thus available. It would not have been easy at all.

Onir is straight out of Mills and Boon, but to his credit, I do not think he feels that he is doing Purvi a great favour, or indeed any favour at all. He loves her, that is all, and he wants to shield her from every problem she might face, at whatever cost to himself. To my mind it would be difficult for a woman not to feel such overwhelming gratitude to such a man as to override any other feeling, even le grand amour. Which, by the way, is a very rare commodity, as the worldly wise and cynical French knew. But one would not guess that at all seeing how ubiquitous amar prem is taken to be here!

As for how much Arjun and Purvi love each other, in this forum, their amar prem is taken as one of the givens, like the ones in a maths problem. I do not know; for as you put it, if love was always for keeps, there would be no divorces at all. Then again, there are many things in life more important than love, and among them would be loyalty and gratitude.

But in the end, I am in the happy position of caring next to nothing about the eventual fate of this tattered, moth-eaten prem kahani. And Onir is best off as far away from his present wife as he can manage to get. She has already done a pretty fair demolition job on him., and who knows what might happen if he hung around for much longer?😉 She should get back with her beloved, with their kid, as soon as feasible, and leave us in peace. This forum, once it has finished the champagne, will be at a loss what to do next, but never mind!😉

Shyamala Aunty

Yes, Purvi did not do Onir a favour either. In my opinion, neither did he. She would have survived even otherwise. All this crap about najayaz and society is just that, there are enough single mothers around who survive. the flower seller on my street got dumped by her lover when she was pregnant, She is just seventeen and has no education. She has kept the baby and continues to sell flowers. her family has not thrown her out on the streets, Her fellow chawl walis don't throw stones at her nor does society. We all happily buy the flowers that she sells. The flowers smell just as sweet, even if they are sold by someone whom the morally upright would gleefully call a s**t, a despo and what not!


Edited by sashashyam - 12 years ago
strega thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Dear Soumya,


I would like to touch on just one point here. This is about an single, unmarried mother surviving in an Indian city with no problems.

The case Sharad cites, of a flowerseller, would have held even in 1950s and 1960s,and that too even in conservative Chennai. These relaxed social mores have long applied to that stratum of society and they figured a lot in the revolutionary Tamil writer Jayakanthan's novels. At the personal level, our maidservant, when she had a huge blow up with her drunkard husband, threw her thali (mangalsutra) in his face, took her two kids and went to live with her brother's family, where she was welcome because she was an earning member. And this was in 1963.

The super rich can also thumb their nose at a scandal.

But the same relaxed mores would not apply to a middle class woman. Neither then, and not even now. The standard procedure would have been for her parents to get an abortion done, or if that was impossible, to take her away somewhere, suppress the whole truth by giving away the baby and then bring her back. In all our extended family and our very large circle of friends and those we know and their families, I have never encountered a single, unmarried mother facing society down and bringing up her fatherless child. And at 60+, I have had a lot to time to locate such cases! This is not to say that they do not exist, but only that they would be very rare, and life would be very tough on the woman involved.

It would also be VERY unfair to the child as well, which would face taunts as soon as it was old enough to understand things. I hold, firmly and unequivocally, that no child should be treated as illegitimate. But the fact is that Indian society is, as of now, nowhere near as accepting of or fair to such kids. Other children are the worst of all; little monsters. And things would be no different as he/she grows up. It would be encountered at every turn - for example at the time of school admission, though the law now says that the mother's name should suffice.

Purvi is not of the poor working classes, she is clearly middle class and given her upbringing, she attaches a lot of importance to social approval and acceptance. Unless she pretended to be a widow, she would have had a very hard time of it, holding down a job, finding a place to stay, minding the child, fending off both the local gossips and the unwelcome attentions from men who would take her to be loose and thus available. It would not have been easy at all.

Onir is straight out of Mills and Boon, but to his credit, I do not think he feels that he is doing Purvi a great favour, or indeed any favour at all. He loves her, that is all, and he wants to shield her from every problem she might face, at whatever cost to himself. To my mind it would be difficult for a woman not to feel such overwhelming gratitude to such a man as to override any other feeling, even le grand amour. Which, by the way, is a very rare commodity, as the worldly wise and cynical French knew. But one would not guess that at all seeing how ubiquitous amar prem is taken to be here!

As for how much Arjun and Purvi love each other, in this forum, their amar prem is taken as one of the givens, like the ones in a maths problem. I do not know; for as you put it, if love was always for keeps, there would be no divorces at all. Then again, there are many things in life more important than love, and among them would be loyalty and gratitude.

But in the end, I am in the happy position of caring next to nothing about the eventual fate of this tattered, moth-eaten prem kahani. And Onir is best off as far away from his present wife as he can manage to get. She has already done a pretty fair demolition job on him., and who knows what might happen if he hung around for much longer?😉 She should get back with her beloved, with their kid, as soon as feasible, and leave us in peace. This forum, once it has finished the champagne, will be at a loss what to do next, but never mind!😉

Shyamala Aunty

Yes, Purvi did not do Onir a favour either. In my opinion, neither did he. She would have survived even otherwise. All this crap about najayaz and society is just that, there are enough single mothers around who survive. the flower seller on my street got dumped by her lover when she was pregnant, She is just seventeen and has no education. She has kept the baby and continues to sell flowers. her family has not thrown her out on the streets, Her fellow chawl walis don't throw stones at her nor does society. We all happily buy the flowers that she sells. The flowers smell just as sweet, even if they are sold by someone whom the morally upright would gleefully call a s**t, a despo and what not!



Shyamala,

On the money as usual...

Only point I want to bring up is this ... I do not think Onir is going far from his Mishti... Who knows with the so called writers but that's my feeling.

And watch this too, Shyamala, if they do bring them back together, the license is going to get restored rather miraculously...


soapwatcher1 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Strega, your prediction, love and luck for Dr.Onir? Lol, he will be one fortunate guy. I feel too Purvi will not leave him.
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Posted: 12 years ago
@sashashyam



I don't think this is about whether Purvi could have survived by speaking the truth. As you have yourself pointed out, she could have paraded herself as a widow. She would not have died on the streets if Onir, her self appointed knight in shining armour, hadn't coming riding along on his white steed! This is all I am saying. Yes, if she had chosen to speak the truth, she may have found herself the butt of taunts and unsolicited advances. Don't we have men hitting on us even when they know we are married? She may have ended up at a government home for women or something like that. She would have still survived. Yes, Onir gave her the so called respectability that the middle-class so craves. But she did not go looking for it. So maybe Purvi is middle class in her upbringing but not in her genes. Maybe her parents were super rich or super poor. That is why she went ahead with her pregnancy instead of a quiet abortion! I applaud her for that! I may find fault with her on a million things but on this, I think she showed remarkable courage. So yes, Onir or no Onir, she would have survived!


I don't think anybody even said Onir thought he was doing Purvi a favour. That was never in question. Sowmya said Purvi was not doing Onir a favour by marrying him. I replied saying that neither was Onir doing her a favour, He married her only because he wanted to. I saw your comment in my other post on a doctor whom you had great admiration for. Indeed his efforts seem praiseworthy, I would have loved to see a story like that for Onir. But apart from stray dialogues, he was never shown as doing anything worthy of praise. Unless, of course, people claim that giving a so called immoral woman and her child his name is a sacrifice worthy of the Nobel or, better still, sainthood! Anyway, I am completely unable to relate to Onir. So I have no great sympathy for him. This despite the fact that I actually like the actor. If we are talking of honourable men who want to unite their wives with their lovers, I would take Ajay's character in Hum Dil over Onir any day! He was honorable and yet human. Unlike Saint Onir of course!

And again, on being fair to the child, if middle class morality dictates that doing away with it in the womb is the best way to protect it from shame, does that not become a kind of honour killing? is it okay simply because it is just a foetus? Should every middle-class girl who has the misfortune of getting pregnant without the benefit of marriage undergo the physical and emotional pain of a forced abortion to satisfy a hypocritical society? Anyway, this discussion was not about what normally happens amongst the middle class. It was only about whether Purvi would have survived or not without Onir. Maybe the poor flower seller and her family are far more humane than the moral spouting middle class!


You have rated gratitude and loyalty as higher than love. In my opinion, that is entirely up to an individual. I , for one, would hate it if someone stayed with me out of gratitude or loyalty and not because they actually wanted to! Like I said to Sowmya there can be nothing worse than pity or gratitude sex. The same applies for commitment and love too. In all this, that is the nicest thing about Onir. He does not thrust himself on Purvi nor is he willing to accept crumbs. He has his dignity in place and I applaud him for the same. My current problem is only with this whole charade which is so deceitful. If Purvi's act of baby swapping is roundly condemnable, so is this! Purvi deprived herself of her own child to give Ovi happiness. Saint Onir is allowing himself to be stripped of his dignity here! How is one acceptable and the other not? In my opinion,this whole charade is done with the purpose of making Purvi feel like a worm and have her run back into his arms! I don't know about the character but my sneaking suspicion is that is what the writers intend. So they can uphold this oh so holy institution of matrimony!

My point of view anyway and you are welcome to disagree. I only responded because you made a reference to my post.



Edited by sharadrocks - 12 years ago
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Posted: 12 years ago
@all


Thank you very much for the lively debate you have all engaged in on this thread. I agree with all of you on some aspects while disagreeing on others. However, I have utmost respect for your life experiences which compel you to take the stand that you do!

I have pretty much explained my stand on most things with regard to the show. A few of you may agree with me while a lot others may not. We have all shared our opinions and tried to explain our stands to others. Not necessarily because we want to convert others to our point of view.but to simply clear that we have strong reasons to feel the way do just as others have their reasons! We are both right and we are both wrong!

Anyway, the work week beckons. I don't know if I will be able to come back and share my thoughts again during the week. So for all those who differ, let us agree to disagree! For those who concur, let us try to see reason in the opinions of those who differ. Maybe there is a middle ground somewhere! I hope we can achieve that without resorting to hurling abuses and name calling! I hope this is one point where all of us will concur!

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