~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 82

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Mudgala - Moudgalya - Vyadhshwa - Divodasa and Ahalya.

This Ahalya is Gautama rishi wali Ahalya. The one seduced by Indra.

Her son was Shatananda - whose son was Sharadwat and guess who was Sharadwat's children - Kripa and Kripi, the twins raised by Santanu, with Kripi married to Drona and Ashwatthama born to her.

So if at all Draupadi was born in this family, what was Ashwatthama doing being listed as her suitor in Swayamvar.

She is called reincarnation of Indrasena/Nalayani but I dont think that is possible. This family has twin boy girl births though.

Divodasa Ahalya

Kripa Kripi

One other interesting thing. Of the five panchala tribes one starts with Mudgala where Drona.marries into and second tribe is started by srinjaya to which Drupad belongs

Not just that. The mudgala branch sticks to their brahmin/priest/teacher.profession. while srinjaya group becomes.Ksahtriya and leads the five tribes.

I think the friendship powersharing story started here.

Drona wanted to rule and was not satisfied being the living on donations teacher. He wanted his wife's paternal inheritance and Drupad didnt want to share inspite of being a friend.

I don't think Ashwathama was a suitor there! He probably visited along with Dury just like Karna n Shakuni, he definitely didn't venture for the test, I think he could have actually succeeded had he done that

Even without this relationship, she was the daughter of Drona's GuruBhai, so she was like Gurucousin of Ashwathama, so he couldn't have ventured anyway

Foremost of all wielders of weapons--the illustrious Aswatthaman and Bhoja, adorned with every ornament have also come for thee.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01189.htm

He is mentioned as a suitor. Whereas Karna is specifically mentioned as accompanying Dury

Krishna is mentioned in section after the next one after this as viewing the scene with Vrishni andhaka and other yadava tribes.

So they are also mentioned as viewers.

However we can presume shakuni wudnt attempt because of Dury. Virat's sons wont either if their father tried.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Foremost of all wielders of weapons--the illustrious Aswatthaman and Bhoja, adorned with every ornament have also come for thee.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01189.htm

He is mentioned as a suitor. Whereas Karna is specifically mentioned as accompanying Dury

Krishna is mentioned in section after the next one after this as viewing the scene with Vrishni andhaka and other yadava tribes.

So they are also mentioned as viewers.

However we can presume shakuni wudnt attempt because of Dury. Virat's sons wont either if their father tried.

Per CE, the "for you" is taken out for Ashwatthama.

One more thing. This Kanva Angirasa line's offshoot- known as Gautama line as they descended from Ahalya + Gautama.

Whose descendents were, Kripa/Kripi family eventually had a descendent Suddhodhana Gautama whose son was Siddhartha Gautama. Popularly known as Buddha. These guys had moved and settled in Nepal/Lumbini.

Now I am still looking for info whether Suddhodhan descended from Kripa or Kripi/ashwatthama

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Foremost of all wielders of weapons--the illustrious Aswatthaman and Bhoja, adorned with every ornament have also come for thee.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01189.htm

He is mentioned as a suitor. Whereas Karna is specifically mentioned as accompanying Dury

Krishna is mentioned in section after the next one after this as viewing the scene with Vrishni andhaka and other yadava tribes.

So they are also mentioned as viewers.

However we can presume shakuni wudnt attempt because of Dury. Virat's sons wont either if their father tried.

Doesn't it seem strange though, Karna had just come as an accomplice of Dury and he participated or tried to participate, Ashwathama came as a suitor and didn't even try to participate

Although HearMeRoar says CE has removed the words "for thee"

Karna and Ashwatthama had a big difference in the way they obtained the kingdoms. Not because of caste.

Karna got the kingdom for nothing as a charity. When he was not even a Brahman who is eligible to obtain kingdom as charity

Drona got it as gurudakshina for training Pandavas to win it in a fair fight from Drupad. And ashwatthama got it from his father as inheritance.

So it was a respectable.way of becoming a king

Karna and his father did not have the respect that Drona Ashwatthama had.

Like Krishna tells Yudhishtir in Udyoga Parva before he leaves, that only a brahmin has glory in accepting charity. A kshatriya has only humiliation if he accepts charity. He earns his kingdom by birth or the might of his arms.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

One more thing. This Kanva Angirasa line's offshoot- known as Gautama line as they descended from Ahalya + Gautama.

Whose descendents were, Kripa/Kripi family eventually had a descendent Suddhodhana Gautama whose son was Siddhartha Gautama. Popularly known as Buddha. These guys had moved and settled in Nepal/Lumbini.

Now I am still looking for info whether Suddhodhan descended from Kripa or Kripi/ashwatthama

Is it? So they downgraded from Brahmins to Kshtriyas

I think descendants should be from Kripa as Dronacharya's descandants won't carry their family name

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Karna and Ashwatthama had a big difference in the way they obtained the kingdoms. Not because of caste.

Karna got the kingdom for nothing as a charity. When he was not even a Brahman who is eligible to obtain kingdom as charity

Drona got it as gurudakshina for training Pandavas to win it in a fair fight from Drupad. And ashwatthama got it from his father as inheritance.

So it was a respectable.way of becoming a king

Karna and his father did not have the respect that Drona Ashwatthama had.

Like Krishna tells Yudhishtir in Udyoga Parva before he leaves, that only a brahmin has glory in accepting charity. A kshatriya has only humiliation if he accepts charity. He earns his kingdom by birth or the might of his arms.

I still don't understand why Kauravas gave him the state in charity.

Could it be that he had started threatening Dury n Dhritrashtra to join Pandavas camp if not given the kingdom?

Or else he could have been taken in confidence by giving him high position in Hastinapur. State is too much of a gift

My point was not why Karna didn't come as a suitor, he would have anyway not come as a competitor to Duryodhan.

My point was Karna came as an accomplice to Duryodhan, yet he participated, so why would Ashwathama who supposedly came as suitor not try

Sigh.

Posting again...

1. CE says Ashwatthama and Bhoja were there, not that they are suitors.

2. Ashwatthama was known to be a brahmana. The end chaos in the swayamvara scene makes it clear brahmanas DIDN'T participate until Arjuna in the guise of one entered.

So Panchali as Angirasa is not nullified by presence of Ashwatthama in swayamvara scene.

Also, Maudgalya was her ex. If we're talking about Maudgalya being related to Bharadwaja Angirasas, then nothing stopped Ashwatthama from actually trying because that didn't make Panchali related to him.

I'm slowly coming to think Panchali was an Angirasa possibly married off to a rishi (Maudgalya) much like Satyavati was before Shanthanu. The adoption and fire birth story was likely at least partly put about to hide she wasn't an untouched virgin. The only question is the identity of this Kanwa Maudgalya since it meant only descendant of Mudgala.