~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 84

Since everyone else seems to be done with current debates, here's a new one:

Role of Narada in MBh.

Narada was the one who came and filled Yudhishtira's ears with stories of brothers fighting over the same woman. I believe the mischievous sage started trouble between the couple which led to Yudhishtira's insecurities. This would've gotten worse after the imperial campaign when the brothers did the heavy lifting. Yudhishtira does later admit to Panchali he agreed to the dice game because he wanted to win Hastinapuri.

I believe the dice hall events were Yudhishtira's attenpt to show the world he too was all that.

Of course, he was responsible for his own actions, but I believe Narada's mischief started it.

Game of Dice happens immidiately after the Rajsuya, I don't think there was some time for such dissent to be seen.

Coming to Yudhishtir,. I don't think Narad's inputs had much effect

Just think of it. He had his reasons for his insecurities

Yudhishtir was made Yuvaraj more because of indirect threat from Yadavs and then Varnavrat followed

Yudhishtir and his brothers had to roam for their lives, it was always Bheem who got them some decent living and respect (Hindimb and then Bakasur)

They could dare to return home only after their association with Panchal n marriage with Draupadi. This association happened because of Arjun's skills

He agreed for partition only to get an inferior portion in partition and that too under Hastinapur protection (as Chiillii said Rajsuya was to claim independence)

They went for Rajsuya to claim Complete independence and the major work was done by Bheem and Arjun and minor work by Nakul Sahdev.

The celebration ceremony ended in a minor agitation.

So basically before the game of dice, whatever good happened to Pandavas was the contribution of Arjun n Bheem or Yadav support, while the things done by Yudhishtir had mostly ended in disaster. In such a condition he would have been looking for a day when his actions gets prosper to them. I don't think Yudhishtir ever thought it to be a fun game, his intention was to win Hastinapur just as Shakuni Dury wanted Indraprasth (maybe not 100 Kauravas n Bhanumati) but definitely the kingdom. He wanted to show the world that he too can achieve somethings by himself

What happened has everyone lost the interest in this thread?

Narada is an interesting chap.

Like me an hear me roar were discussing earlier.

The narada as popular perception goes was not son of Brahma. He was son of Rishi Devala.

He was not Brahmachari. His wife was panchala princess sannati. Drupad's aunt most likely. I believe he was mid generation between Vichitravirya/Prishata and Dhrit/Pandu/Drupad

Nothing much is known about his children

He was a spy and spin doctor with shifting loyalties

1. He knew Karna was Kunti's son and informed Bhishma. He was the most likely source of this information for Vyasa as well.

2. He had been tracking Karna throughout his life, which he reveals in Santi Parva to everyone, which makes me believe he had been hired for the job.

3. I dont believe that Kansa heard any Akashwani. Most likely scenario is major family heads would have started discussing that Vasudev now has better claim to throne because of his marriage to devaki and her sisters. As the child born would be Vrishni and Andhaka. And these discussions would have reached Kansa's ear. Then Narada circulates the false story of children's natural death as murder by Kansa.

4. He also then finds out and leaks the story of Kansa being a rape child. All to help Vasudev take back the crown

5. Narada is the one who tells Krishna about Pradyumna and gets Pradyumna appointed as first son of Krishna and heir of Vasudev.

5. I think Narada was Vasudev's spy and ally for a long time. And maybe Kunti reached out to Vasudev about Karna and asked him to keep an eye and ear out for him. Epic says Kunti's spies followed Karna. I dont think she had resources to arrange spies. I feel it was Vasudev who asked Narada to do the needful

Over a period of time I think Narada became too arrogant and troublesome

6. Sometime later we see Narada visiting Yudhi and getting involved in the family life of Pandavas. Telling them to make rules regarding Draupadi. This was too personal a matter for even Vyasa to talk about.

7. Narada at some point is politely chased out of Dwarka, when he similarly tries to get into personal lives of Krishna and his wives and sons. Puranas have a lot of these stories.

I think this is just before Rajasuya when Narada switches loyalties to Vyasa / Bhishma and he probably throws the Karna story in to gain their confidence.

That poking his nose into Pandava family is what I'm wondering about. Did he do it on his own or on behalf of someone?

I agree Yudhishtira had lots to be insecure about, but hearing Narada go on about Shunda, Upashunda, and Tilotthama couldn't have helped.

But then, Narada returned after dice hall to curse at the Kurus.

Guilt about his mischief causing an assault? Pretense and having it both ways?

Also, if Vasudeva kept an eye on Karna for Kunti, why was she so upset with him?

I'm not certain about Devala being Narada, but the names arw always mentioned together. Plus, Narada was a title, and Devala could be Narada of the times.

Devala's daughter (or sister, not sure) Sannati was married to Brahmadatta, king of Panchala. She was probably Drupada's auntie.

Also, Devala waa twin of Dhaumya, the Pandava priest.

Narada (maybe Devala) was married to a woman called Sukumari

Yup my mistake Sannati must be Narada's sister married to Brahmadutta.

While roaming with his sister's son Parvata, he meets princess Sukumari, daughter of Pamchala king Srinjaya and marries her.

So Narada Panchal were pretty close. ANd Narada and Vasudev/Kunti family too.

So double connection with Pandavas there.

But yeah he poked his nose in lot of things. Sometimes at request of someone.. Sometimes on his own

I still don't understand his reasons to shift his loyalties to Bheeshm (Vyas was anyway in favour of Pandavas so won't comment on that line)

If he was somehow a spy of Vasudev and had kept an eye on Karna on Kunti's behalf, then that would mean Kunti trusted Vasudev way too much and then her supposed anger towards Vasudev and Shrusena is not meaningful.

Aside wasn't he the one who suggested Yudhishtir for Rajsuya? And assuming he propagated the rumours against Kansa, he seems to be genuinely a well-wisher to Vasudev..

I doubt he was some spy to anyone, I think he was a family friend to Vasudev Kunti family and genuinely helped and guided them.

His telling Bheeshm about Karna is probably the only act of betrayal to them. That could have been with a good intention to probably find a common ground between Kauravas n Pandavas and thereby reduce the enimity

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

I still don't understand his reasons to shift his loyalties to Bheeshm (Vyas was anyway in favour of Pandavas so won't comment on that line)

If he was somehow a spy of Vasudev and had kept an eye on Karna on Kunti's behalf, then that would mean Kunti trusted Vasudev way too much and then her supposed anger towards Vasudev and Shrusena is not meaningful.

Aside wasn't he the one who suggested Yudhishtir for Rajsuya? And assuming he propagated the rumours against Kansa, he seems to be genuinely a well-wisher to Vasudev..

I doubt he was some spy to anyone, I think he was a family friend to Vasudev Kunti family and genuinely helped and guided them.

His telling Bheeshm about Karna is probably the only act of betrayal to them. That could have been with a good intention to probably find a common ground between Kauravas n Pandavas and thereby reduce the enimity

Narada also told Kamsa about the possibility of Devaki's son being a stronger contender to the throne. IIRC, Narada was the one who divulged Krishna's location to Kamsa eventually.

I honestly can't figure out which side he was on.

Just a thought, what if Narad was not a person, but a job role?

Could it be that they were some special kinds of spies who adorned the attire of saints to get easy access to the places they wanted and to get more confidence among the common masses

The Narad which gave the details to Kansa, the one which helped Vasudev, the one who told about Karna to Bheeshm, the one who Kunti had hired for keeping an eye (he could be the one who suggested Pandavas of Rajsuya) were all different people.

Devala who was related to Panchals was a different Narada all together.

That would explain the inconsistent behaviour of Narada