~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 28

@Nora @Deepika

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/index.htm

Read the whole Parva. See if you still believe Bheeshma was a benevolent man. He was a psychopath IMO. There is a part where he even says loose women should be eaten by dogs. Now put it together with what he knew about Kunti.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

@Nora @Deepika

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/index.htm

Read the whole Parva. See if you still believe Bheeshma was a benevolent man. He was a psychopath IMO. There is a part where he even says loose women should be eaten by dogs. Now put it together with what he knew about Kunti.

Thanks for ur effort

@,hearmeroar

Could u help me to find about devika yudhishthira's wife.

I read she was won in a swayamber by yudi🤣.

D reason of asking it coz I want 2 know what made devika chose Yudi.

Yuyutsu definitely knew the plan of Shakuni and Karna, so definitely they being the frontliners were known across. Bheeshm was not exposed and completely planning in hindsight

Bheeshm never would have thought that Pandavas would return.. He hardly cared for them till they returned. And they returned with sage support and royal birth story. He couldn't oppose the sages and get into the bad books of them. The sages weren't some small time babas, they had all time power to twist the state. Hence he couldn't have done any partial treatment to Pandavas in open

Aside on your point on Dhritrashtra not saying Duryodhan/Yudhishtir. I don't think revealing would have anywhere helped. Yudhishtir might have suddenly started crying for Karna and announcing his rights over the throne, the sages and other Pandavas wouldn't.

Even if for a moment we think that they decided to declare Karna the king, even then they wouldn't accept the defeat, just the head would change from Yudhishtir to Karna. What if Karna agreed to Yudhishtir's offer?? Duryodhan would have a big warrior from his side fighting from the side of the opponent, what if not, nothing would happen the war would continue. They had killed Bheeshm, there was no reason they would have spared Karna.

This revelation would have served no purpose except Duryodhan getting slightly doubtful on Karna too, which I guess was the last thing Dhritrashtra would have wanted considering Karna had already rejected the request from the opposite side

I have an alternate theory:

Since the plan was clearly to build a dharma raj, the Kuru Panchal alliance was needed. After that Jarasandha needed to be defeated before rajasuya. To that end, they needed to fortify Khandava defenses. Krishna and Arjuna were given Gandeev and Sudarshana at that time. The 2 people mentioned in the scene were Bheeshma and Vyasa. Why would Bheeshma be involved unless he were a part of empire planning committee?

Now, why the division of Hastinapuri... imagine of Yudhishtira got back the crown prince position instead of Khandava. Imagine of they sent Bheema to get Jarasandha, and they failed. Wouldn't Jarasandha then attack Hastinapuri?

I believe Hastinapuri was divided precisely to avoid the main family getting clobbered by Jarasandha in case he won. Kurus could blame Pandavas and escape.

Now think back a bit more. Would Pandavas have agreed to the plan if they hadn't been desperate? Yudhishtira was already crown prince. Why wouldn't he have simply asked Arjuna to go as a prince to swayamvara?

To get them desperate, lac house was needed.

Now, Suyodhana definitely planned it. I find it hard to believe Vidura knew and didn't inform Bheeshma. Vyasa knew, also. I think the elders saw their chance and took it. They let lac house happen and put fear into Kunti and Pandavas so they'd cooperate with plans. I think Bheeshma et al might be even planted the idea in Suyodhana's head. Or they might not have had to. Anointing Yudhishtira wouldve been enough to trigger Suyodhana. All Bheeshma needed to do was set spies to discover the plan.

So there you have it: empire was planned. First, anoint Yudhishtira as crown prince. Get Suyodhana jealous. Spy on him. Discover lac house plans. Inform Pandavas. Arrange swayamvar. Split the kingdom. Have Pandavas attempt to defeat Jarasandha. If they lose, Hastinapuri is not blamed. If the win...

Then comes rajasuya when Bheeshma messed it up. This was followed by dice hall where Bheeshma never informed Vyasa who could've stopped it. Then the exile and the war where Bheeshma fought for the Kuru side.

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

@,hearmeroar

Could u help me to find about devika yudhishthira's wife.

I read she was won in a swayamber by yudi🤣.

D reason of asking it coz I want 2 know what made devika chose Yudi.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01096.htm

esides these, Yudhishthira, having obtained for his wife Devika, the daughter of Govasana of the Saivya tribe, in a self-choice ceremony, begat upon her a son named Yaudheya.

I found the below bit in doubt and discussion thread if anybody can confirm how true this is -

Prativindhya wins against a lady ascetic Shalabha in a debate on Dharma sutras at Mithila and gets her hand in marriage (Bhasa Bharata)

Sutasoma marries Chanda and rules Udayendupur in Panchal ( this is in Drona parva)

Sutasoma Jataka calls him the king of Indraprastha

Shatanika -Nakuleya or Draupadeya as he is more famously called, is a celebrated king of Shatapatha and Aitereya brahamana he helps Drupada defeat and kill Durbuddhi in western panchal thus gets himself a chokri and naukri!!

Harivamsa also mentions Shatanika's conquest; it elaborates further that it is Bhallata who is killed by Karna in his Digvijaya and not Drupad who is defeated. Karna places Durbuddhi on throne and makes him a Kaurava ally until these plans are spoilt by Shatanika and Drupad

If Sauptika is true, even then there's a daughter to Yudhi- Drau: Suthanu the wife of Bhanu-asva and mother to Vajra. so there's at least a daughter left

According to Sauptika and other parvas its Parikshit the only heir but he too is ruling Kurujangala from Asandivat which is near Kurukshetra and not Hastinapur ; Shatapatha brahmana mentions the kingdom left by Yudhi and his brothers and which grandson ruled what...

Since the host of Sarpa satra is Janmejaya and has Vaishampayana narrating the history for him and it is Janmejaya paying for it maybe the focus is more on Parikshit and Abhimanyu

Prativindhya part seems to be true since there is an article about it -

Prativindhya descendants get Sauvira in inheritance; among them there are two grandsons Jayanta who rules Mulasthana with sons of Samba as neighbours another is found crushing a rebellion in Videha by Kuru Dharmanetra( Yeh dushmani hum nahi bhulenge!!) and helps Kashi king Suvarnakshema/Suvarnaverma gain control over Videha. Videha kingdom ultimately passes on to Pratapa ; his lineage too is quite powerful .

Prativindhya had many wives , he has an ascetic wife, a Panchali and a Bahlika princess for wife and has many sons and grandsons ...

https://glorioushinduism.com/2016/02/02/sauvira-kingdom/amp/

There's a great grandson of Drupad who rules Panchala ; Shatanika rules west and eastern Panchala, he and his son Keshi and Krishna are said to revive Panchala and bring back its glory (Shatapatha)

Keshi is sometimes called his nephew, sister's son! so Nakul and Drau had one more daughter?!

Shatanika and his sons are said to be married to Panchalis.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yuyutsu definitely knew the plan of Shakuni and Karna, so definitely they being the frontliners were known across. Bheeshm was not exposed and completely planning in hindsight

Bheeshm never would have thought that Pandavas would return.. He hardly cared for them till they returned. And they returned with sage support and royal birth story. He couldn't oppose the sages and get into the bad books of them. The sages weren't some small time babas, they had all time power to twist the state. Hence he couldn't have done any partial treatment to Pandavas in open

Aside on your point on Dhritrashtra not saying Duryodhan/Yudhishtir. I don't think revealing would have anywhere helped. Yudhishtir might have suddenly started crying for Karna and announcing his rights over the throne, the sages and other Pandavas wouldn't.

Even if for a moment we think that they decided to declare Karna the king, even then they wouldn't accept the defeat, just the head would change from Yudhishtir to Karna. What if Karna agreed to Yudhishtir's offer?? Duryodhan would have a big warrior from his side fighting from the side of the opponent, what if not, nothing would happen the war would continue. They had killed Bheeshm, there was no reason they would have spared Karna.

This revelation would have served no purpose except Duryodhan getting slightly doubtful on Karna too, which I guess was the last thing Dhritrashtra would have wanted considering Karna had already rejected the request from the opposite side

Bhishma was either a mastermind or someone who involved a child in assassination of future King

If Bhishma can plan all this and he didn't want Yudhishtir to rule

1 He could have crowned Dhritarashtra as King - Every problem would have been solved with this for them, the clash existed because Dhritarashtra wasn't crowned

2 When they know that they have to get rid of another contendor for crown, they would have killed Pandavas with Kunti in Van itself. A contendor will always come to claim his right, again either Bhishma was a mastermind or an absolute novice in terms of politics that he didn't think Kunti and Pandavas will come back

3 It is very easy to assassinate Kids and Kunti when they came to Hastinapur for someone like Bhishma. Only a stupid person will ask his favorite for the crown, a kid to be involved in assassination plot of future King, The kid would blurt out on whose order was he doing everything

On one side we are saying they feared sages and HAD to give Pandavas the education on the other side what did these Sages do when Draupadi was disrobed and Pandavas insulted?

If Dhritarashtra had told Duryodhana about Karna, he would have known that Karna is not going to kill 4 of his brothers. Karna had said he won't go against Duryodhana that cements everything in Duryodhana's favor. There's a reason why Krishna, Kunti and Vyasa didn't tell about it to Yudhishtir, If Yudi knowing had favored Yudi then first thing Kunti and Krishna would have done was tell Yudi about Karna.

The fact that Krishna and Kunti didn't tell Yudi makes me wonder if the conversation between Bhishma and Karna took place, If Sanjay could hear them speak then why didn't anyone else? Dhritarashtra would have told Duryodhana if he knew about Karna.

If Duryodhan was to get doubtful on Karna and if it was to benefit Pandavas, Krishna would have told Duryodhana, The fact that he didn't tell Duryodhana tells us that it was done to stop Duryodhana from telling it to Pandavas

Duryodhana is a big tree of evil passions; Karna is its trunk; Sakuni is its branches; Dussasana forms its abundant blossoms and fruits; (while) the wise king Dhritarashtra is its toots.

The story was written as clearly as this, now if Bhishma was involved in anything its weird that Dhritarashtra and everyone allowed Duryodhana, their crown Prince to get blamed for trying to kill Yudi to save Bhishma.

Pandavas got a good education and knowledge of weapon which helped them, They could have sent Kauravas to Drona and Pandavas to someone with a plan to sabotage their future, you see we are talking about Bhishma being a mastermind and trying to kill Pandavas, The only reason Arjuna was as good was because of Drona and Drona openly favored Arjuna, I think people like Bhishma would ask Drona to keep a close eye on Duryodhana and teach him more, Drona had NO money to feed his child, he was dependent on Hastinapur

Everyone involved in Lac house is mentioned in the book, Bhishma is not one of them, so we can't really say that he knew it.

Dice hall was an open attempt, Now the difference between dice hall and lac house was Dhritarashtra's status as King, Bhishma was helpless when Dhritarashtra was King

It would have been believable if it was done with precision, A normal councilor in any city attempts an assassination better than Bhishma