-:Chat with Indrajit Bandyopadhyay:- Check page 2 - Page 6

"Draupadii's Last Trek" is a light-hearted take ...

If research is a serious one ... then I feel I must balance it with something light ...

In that story, the Indra is the Puranik one ...

Actually, Indra of Vedas is an Ideal Person and Ideal King ... Mbh. takes that Indra ... otherwise Vyaasa could not hail Paandavas as Indras ...

... and the Mbh. portions where Indra is portrayed as lusty are surely later adages ... interpolations ...

... the word Indra has in it "Indu" ... and Indu is both Moon (Soma) and Amrita ... so, it fits that Soma-vamshi Paandavas are Indras or Indra's Amsha or Indra's son (Arjuna) ... that way, Vyaasa perhaps says they are Amrtsya Putrah ..

@ AnuMP

"An article on the dice games of the epic and the Vedas"

- Other than Gilles Schaufelberger's very educative article, pl also read "Distribution of Communal Wealth in Ancient India: Dice and Agriculture" by Sharad Patil [ref- Social Scientist Vol. 2, No. 8 (Mar., 1974), pp. 27-45 ... read it at Jstor -

@ Sabhayata

"Regarding Myth and reality i would say that most modern authors try to view Mahabharat from the human reality standards that is as of today that is as of Kali yug.But what was human reality 5000 years ago during Dawapar yug no one can say? Draupadi being born of Agni or Pandvas being sons' of god's may not seem a human reality from today's standard but 5000 years ago miracle,divine power etc could have all been very real as well?"

- 5000 years back it was the time of Indus Valley Civilization ... historians do not agree that the Vedic Civilization could be that old ...

Ok ... even taking for granted that Vedic Civilization ran parallel to Indus Valley Civilization, do you really believe that people of Harappa and Mohenzodaro were Dvaapara Yuga people? And Miraculous things happened in those days?

Sorry ... too strenuous for me ... Homo Sapiens have been Homo Sapiens all through ... Human Reality is always biological Reality, nothing else ...

Still, if you want to believe in Supernatural, its your choice ... similarly, it is my choice to regard such Belief - superstitious and irrational ... really, too difficult for me to digest ...

Well, in Vedas, Upanishads and Braahmana Text, you will always find the Rshis wanting a full span of 100 years life ... Now, can you account how the Mahaabhaaratan age all of a sudden started producing immortal beings?

Therefore, this immortality' etc has to be Metaphors for an all-round healthy living ... pl do read Shatapatha Braahmana and you will get an idea what Immortality actually means ..

Regarding Yuga concept, there is a parallel Yuga concept in Mahaabhaarata ... and that idea is preached by none other than the other great Woman - Kunti ... and also by Bhiishma and Uttanka ...

According to that Yuga Theory, the four Yugas are actually Metaphor for governance ... that is, when a good King rules, it is Satya-Yuga ... and when a tyrant rules, it is Kali Yuga ... Isn't this Theory more logical? And if that Theory is stated in Mahaabhaarata itself, why not believe in it, rather than the Supernatural hotchpotch?

Regarding Draupadii's vengeance, where am I denying that she could not vengeful? Yes, of course she had her spree of vengeance ... but why pin-fix her to that role only? Do you know she was Yudhishhira's minister? Finance minister, to be specific ... and she kept all accounts of Indraprashtha ... Not only that, she also headed Grievance Redressal Cell in Indraprashtha ... isn't this Draupadii more lovable and admirable ...

Now, do you know, Arjuna too was an Arthashaastravishaarada? Now, isn't this one probable reason why Arjuna and Draupadii were the best match? Instead of imagining Arjuna and Draupadii as a pair of hero-heroine running around trees and babbling nonsense, imagine them as a pair discussing Arthashaastra! Also remember, Kuua-Buddhi as Upaaya (Strategy/Policy) and Kuuta-Kaushala as Upaaya are part of Arthashaastra ...

To me, the real glue and chemistry of Arjuna and Draupadii was this Intellectual part ... other than of course the other essential things ...

Please read the Dharmashaastra to get an idea what a menstruating Woman has to do and do not do ...

Had Draupadii really been menstruating, Duhshaasana could not have touched her .. and if he had touched her (like the way it is described), all Braahmanas in the Kuru Sabhaa would have immediately walked out ... I guess that is one reason why Draupadii performed to be menstruating ... that is, to protect herself from any possible physical assault ... the Performance was thus multifaceted ... it would evoke sympathy among the mass, and at the same time give her physical protection ... that is her genius ...

Regarding Ashvatthaamaa's "gem-on-head" ... I wont argue ... the Narrative itself is bogus ... the "gem" is actually a Metaphor for status ... Ashvatthaamaa's gem gone means, he became an outcaste ... a fallen Braahmana ... and that was the punishment he was subjected too ... I call Draupadii merciful because she spared his life ... how many Woman would spare the life of the murderer of her all sons?

@ Sabhayata

"That Yudhi staked his brothers and wife was just a Political Propaganda of the Kuru-camp to demean Yudhi and prove to the mass that he was inept as a Ruler. Vyaasa retains that as it is ... that is his greatness as Kavi ...

Regards

Indrajit

"Sir sorry didnt understand this part if Yudi staking his wife and brother's isnt true then why will Vyasa retain that?Pandavas were the victors so why retain incidents about them that weren't true?"

- Vyaasa was presenting Life as it is ... he was not editing life ... that is why he is a great poet ... propaganda and counter-propaganda are part of life that Vyaasa saw ... why would he edit that? Even FALSE is a part of the greater Truth that includes both truth and false ...

@ Vrish.

"The other thing that strikes me a lot about the Mahabharat - particularly KM Ganguly's translation - is the contradictions in different parts of the book. What is the usual accepted way of determining which of 2 contradictory accounts is authentic?

Another question - what, if any, historical value does Shrimad Bhagvatam have, given that it too contains description of certain events in the Mahabharat? If there is a contradiction b/w the 2, which one usually prevails?"

- Nice questions ...

Actually, Life has no Grand Narrative ... and Mahaabhaarata being a par excellence mimesis of life, it contains contradictory Narratives ... it is in this very contradiction that there is no contradiction ...

Vyaasa shows how human memory produces different Narratives at different times ... it is the very play of Memory and Narrative ...

Shriimad Bhaagavatam focuses more on Bhakti ... naturally there is more emotional exaggerations ... I wouldn't take them literally ... rather I would take them as quite normal and natural exaggerations of a Bhakta ... we do it in our everyday life ... don't we? Doesn't every girl think her father to be the best father in the world? Now, would we take that literally? Or would we take that BEST as a normal and natural expression of the daughter's heart?

Now, a girl who regards her father to be the BEST father in the world (the mother of course too often knows Best ... detecting the WORST husband in the very BEST father!) ... do we feel like arguing with that girl? Or do we admire the girl for that sweet exaggeration? Isn't Bhakti similar? So, if a Bhakta regards Krishna as God, at least I do not need to argue ... the Belief is great ... a person is entitled to Belief ... even a non-believer cannot live without Belief ... Suppose he thinks: "I am a Non-Believer" ... now, isn't that a Belief too?

Regarding mortality and immortality, read this Suuktas from RgVeda -

"5.4. 10. I am a mortal and you are eternal, O God! I praise you with devotion, and ask you two favors:

1) That we may earn glory, and 2) That we may gain immortality through an unbroken line of descendants.

Vouchsafe us high renown, O Jatavedas, and may I be immortal by my children."

If in RgVedic age, this is the Reality, why do people believe that Mahaabhaaratan age produced physical immortality?

Read this RgVedic Suukta - and I am sure you will find Draupadii here - including her polyandrous marriage ...

This is one reason, why I consider Draupadii the very embodiment of Vaak-Sarasvatii -

1.10.125 Mantra 125 - Vak (Author: Vak Ambhrni)

1. I TRAVEL with the Rudras and the Vasus, with the Adityas and All-Gods I wander.

I hold aloft both Varuna and Mitra, Indra and Agni, and the Pair of Asvins.

2 I cherish and sustain high-swelling Soma, and Tvastar I support, Pusan, and Bhaga.

I load with wealth the zealous sdcrificer who pours the juice and offers his oblation

3 I am the Queen, the gatherer-up of treasures, most thoughtful, first of those who merit worship.

Thus Gods have stablished me in many places with many homes to enter and abide in.

4 Through me alone all eat the food that feeds them,-each man who sees, brewhes, hears the word outspoken

They know it not, but yet they dwell beside me. Hear, one and all, the truth as I declare it.

5 1, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome.

I make the man I love exceeding mighty, make him a sage, a Rsi, and a Brahman.

6 I bend the bow for Rudra that his arrow may strike and slay the hater of devotion.

I rouse and order battle for the people, and I have penetrated Earth and Heaven.

7 On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean.

Thence I extend o'er all existing creatures, and touch even yonder heaven with my forehead.

8 I breathe a strong breath like the wind and tempest, the while I hold together all existence.

Beyond this wide earth and beyond the heavens I have become so mighty in my grandeur.

Read this Suukta and here you will find Draupadii again - this time as Shacii-Indraanii ... and interestingly, one meaning of Shacii is eloquence ... leading us back to Vaak-Sarasvatii ...

1.10.159 Mantra 159 - Saci Paulomi (Author: Saci Paulomi)

1. YON Sun hath mounted up, and this my happy fate hate mounted high.

I knowing this, as conqueror have won my husband for mine own.

2 I am the banner and the head, a mighty arbitress am I:

I am victorious, and my Lord shall be submissive to my will.

3 My Sons are slayers of the foe, my Daughter is a ruling Queen:

I am victorious: o'er my Lord my song of triumph is supreme.

4 Oblation, that which Indra gave and thus grew glorious and most high,-

This have I offered, O ye Gods, and rid me of each rival wife.

5 Destroyer of the rival wife, Sole Spouse, victorious, conqueror,

The others' glory have I seized as 'twere the wealth of weaker Dames.

6 I have subdued as conqueror these rivals, these my fellow-wives,

That I may hold imperial sway over this Hero and the folk.

You see, Vaak says: "I am queen" ... actually the Sanskrit is "aha raashtrii" ... so, AnuMp you see how right you are when you say: "I would call her the de facto Emperor."

Actually, Draupadii is the Centre ... she embodies Buddhi ... and in Mahaabhaarata Buddhi is Feminine ... is there anything more "FEMINIST" than Mahaabhaarata?

So, dear members, those of you who insist on misunderstanding me on the "feminist" matter ... you may ... but it is useless ...

When I criticize "feminist" it is only its modern degenerated form ... only bashing man is not feminism ... true feminism is nothing different from humanism ... and in that humanism, the tilt has to be towards the Feminine ... and that is what I mean by Feminist ... see, when a man boasts on his Buddhi, according to Mahaabhaarata, he is only boasting on the Feminine side in him ... and in Giita too, Krishn says, "take refuge of Buddhi, it is the highest principle"

Arjuna represents the Balance of Purushaarthas ... it is also the Balance of Male and Female or Masculine-Feminine in him ... one manifestation of that is his napunsak form .. actually, it is not neuter gender, but it is an entity in which both the Masculine and Feminine parts are highly activated ... it is same as Ardhanaariishvara ... that is why Shhiva gives him the Pashupat ... literally, Pashupat means "Lord of Beasts" .. metaphorically it means "tamer/controller of the beastly side in one's self" ... Arjuna with Balance of Masculine and Feminine is the true tamer/controller of the beast in him ...

It is the man and woman with misbalanced Masculine -Feminine in the Self that becomes problematic ... over dominance of one side will turn one into a Rapist Male/ Predatory Female or into a DOMESTICATED Husband or DOORMAT Wife ...

In Mahaabhaarata, through Arjuna in particular, Vyaasa teaches us the necessity of acquiring this Balance ...

Originally posted by: AnuMP

Prof thank you for the article. Will certainly read it

Loved your answer about Draupadi. Its been an ongoing argument on IF. Yes, the Drau-Satya convo does say that she controls the finances. I didnt know the part about Grievance Redressing. So, she controlled the money and was the primary access point to the public. I would call her the de facto Emperor, then

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