-:Chat with Indrajit Bandyopadhyay:- Check page 2 - Page 5

An article on the dice games of the epic and the Vedas

Indrajeet sir:

I have been going through some discussions here i have some queries

1)Regarding Myth and reality i would say that most modern authors try to view Mahabharat from the human reality standards that is as of today that is as of Kali yug.But what was human reality 5000 years ago during Dawapar yug no one can say?

Draupadi being born of Agni or Pandvas being sons' of god's may not seem a human reality from today's standard but 5000 years ago miracle,divine power etc could have all been very real as well?

I mean many years ago electricity wouldn't have been a reality but its a reality of today so we cant be sure of the human reality standards of Dwapar yug

I guess i am trying to say that i do believe in miracle or divine power that is there in Mahabhart i do believe that 5000 years ago this could be reality as well

2)Regarding Draupadi i didnt understand why isnt it possible for her to be mensurating during both rounds of dice game.Both rounds of dice game and pandvas exile happened immediately there was no time gap so if we take it happened over span of 2 to 3 days then she could have been mensurating for those 3 days or a week?Or may be when she is leaving for exile she is still wearing the same saree she wore on the day of first dice game?

Also about Drauapdi it doesn't seem to me that drauapdi was let go because she created sympathy in the heart of Dhritrashtra.Because the sequence of events are such

A lot happens from the time that Draupadi is dragged in the sabha till the time Dhrit gives her boons

and she continuously keeps crying and censuring everyone and keeps keeping her POV forward yet no one accept for Vilkarna and Vidur say something for her

Infact only when Vikarna speaks for Drauapdi is the only time when the entire sabha censures Dhrit and his son's

Its only when Vidur and Gandhari advise Dhrit then he frees Draupadi and asks her to ask for boons

If Drauapdi had succeeded in creating symapthy in the hearts of Kuru sabha things wouldn't have gotten this far

even after her disrobing twice Karna asks dushy to drag Drauapd to servant quarter yet no one says anything

3)Also regarding Draupadi and her reason for war.I do believe she wanted vengence and justice for herself

And i see no wrong in it why shouldn't a woman want justice for herself .Also this is what she says continuously in the epic time and again

when Krishna ji comes to meet her first in kamayka she complains and cries about all the wrongs that had been done to pandvas and her

In vana parva its she who begins a conversation with Yudi and says that her heart breaks to see pandavs the way they are and that sons of Dhrit should be punished for the same

The during peace treaty discussion she clearly says what she wants

So what other reason could be their in wanting war as far as Draupadi is concerned other than justice for the injustice done to her and her family?Does she say anything else in the epic that would indicate anything otherwise?

Infact one of the reason i appreciate Draupadi is because she always fought or wanted justice no matter what .And no she didnt forgive Ashvathma either she wanted him to be punished as well.She clearly told that to Bhima that he should go and get the gem on Ashwaham's forehead as mark of his subjugation

yes her punishment wasn't always death but whoever wronged her or her family she wanted him to be punished in some way

SO i wouldn't say that she was very forgiving and why should she be i appreciate her because she always wanted justice

The beautiful lady, comforted by Bhimasena, began to weep, and addressing the eldest son of Pandu with his brothers, said, "By good luck, O monarch, having obtained the whole earth, thou shalt enjoy her after the slaughter of thy brave sons in the observance of kshatriya duties. By good luck, O son of Pritha, thou art happy at the thought of having obtained the whole earth. By good luck, thy thoughts do not dwell on Subhadra's son whose tread resembled that of an infuriated elephant. By good luck, thou dost not, like myself while residing at Upaplavya, recollect thy heroic sons slaughtered in the observance of kshatriya duties. O son of Pritha, hearing of the slaughter of those sleeping heroes by Drona's son of sinful deeds, grief burns me as if I were in the midst of a fire. If Drona's son be not made to reap the fruit of that sinful deed of his, if, putting forth your prowess in battle, thou dost not take the life of that wretch of sinful deeds, along with the lives of all his followers, then listen to me, ye Pandavas, I shall sit here in praya!"

Having said these words, the helpless Krishna, the daughter of Yajnasena, sat by the side of the eldest son of Pandu, king Yudhishthira the just. The royal sage, Yudhishthira, of righteous soul, seeing his dear queen sit in praya, addressed her, saying, "O auspicious lady, O thou that art conversant with morality, all thy sons and brothers have righteously met with a noble death. It behoveth thee not to grieve for them. As regards Drona's son, he hath gone to a distant forest, O beautiful princess! How shall thou O lady, make thyself sure of his fall in battle?"

Draupadi answered, "I have heard that Drona's son hath a gem on his head, born with him. I shall see that gem brought to me after the slaughter of that wretch in battle, Placing that gem on thy head, O king, I shall endure to live. Even this is my resolve."

This doesn't sound like a woman who would forgive her son's murderer and why should she .This is the reason i respect her as well

Indrajeet sir:

1]I guess i am trying to say that i do believe in miracle or divine power that is there in Mahabhart i do believe that 5000 years ago this could be reality as well

2)regarding Draupadi and her reason for war.I do believe she wanted vengence and justice for herself.
And i see no wrong in it why shouldn't a woman want justice for herself . ]

Originally posted by: shindes

Yes, I agree. Human powers may have diminished multifold from Dwapar to Kaliyuga. So we cannot judge their ability by our inability.

And Draupadi, yes. She didn't egg them on for war without a valid reason.

She only asked for Justice, and that does not make her blood thirsty.

If that was the case, then all Indians asking for the hanging of Kasab and Nirbhaya's rapists too would be called blood-thirsty, rather than justice seekers!

Exactly...its true that Draupadi wanted justice for herself...She was not very forgiving...
But that doesnt mean that she was vengeful, bloodthirsty, vampish witch like she's portrayed in most places...

Originally posted by: indraajeet

That Yudhi staked his brothers and wife was just a Political Propaganda of the Kuru-camp to demean Yudhi and prove to the mass that he was inept as a Ruler. Vyaasa retains that as it is ... that is his greatness as Kavi ...

Regards

Indrajit

Sir sorry didnt understand this part if Yudi staking his wife and brother's isnt true then why will Vyasa retain that?Pandavas were the victors so why retain incidents about them that weren't true?

Originally posted by: indraajeet

@ Urmila11

If Yudhi had staked Draupadi, won't that be remembered in other ancient Texts too?

Kautilya's Arthashaastra remembers the Dice Game, but does not mention the staking.

Vaatsyaayana's Kaamasuutra mentions Draupadii's humiliation at Kichaka's hand, but does not mention Duryodhana or Duhshashana.

Besides, in Mbh. itself, the Dice Game is remembered many times, but staking is never mentioned ... all staking is in Sabha Parvan alone.

Further, the staking itself is improbable because the way it is described leaves several doubts. Why would Yudhi be staking alone in a standard Dice Game? Where is Duryodhana's counter-staking?

If Yudhi had really staked them, why would none ever blame him for that outside Sabha Parva? Even Draupadi with 'valorous tongue'? I have not found any single reference outside Sabha Parvan that there was staking.

regards
Indrajit

Staking my not have been mentioned but the fact that Pandavas and Draupadi had become slaves has been mentioned

How is this possible without staking

Vaisampayana said, "Thus addressed by Bhimasena, the high-souled king Ajatasatru firmly devoted to truth, mustering his patience, after a few moments said these words, 'No doubt, O Bharata, all this is true. I cannot reproach thee for thy torturing me thus by piercing me with thy arrowy words. From my folly alone hath this calamity come against you. I sought to cast the dice desiring to snatch from Dhritarashtra's son his kingdom with the sovereignty. It was therefore that, that cunning gambler--Suvala's son--played against me on behalf of Suyodhana. Sakuni, a native of the hilly country, is exceedingly artful. Casting the dice in the presence of the assembly, unacquainted as I am with artifices of any kind, he vanquished me artfully. It is, therefore, O Bhimasena, that we have been overwhelmed with this calamity. Beholding the dice favourable to the wishes of Sakuni in odds and evens, I could have controlled my mind. Anger, however, driveth off a person's patience. O child, the mind cannot be kept under control when it is influenced by hauteur, vanity, or pride. I do not reproach thee, O Bhimasena, for the words thou usest. I only regard that what hath befallen us was pre-ordained. When king Duryodhana, the son of Dhritarashtra, coveting our kingdom, plunged us into misery and even slavery, then, O Bhima, it was Draupadi that rescued us.



"Draupadi said, 'What grief hath she not who hath Yudhishthira for her husband? Knowing all my griefs, why dost thou ask me? The Pratikamin dragged me to the court in the midst of an assembly of courtiers, calling me a slave. That grief, O Bharata, consumeth me. What other princess, save Draupadi, would live having suffered such intense misery? Who else, save myself, could bear such second insult as the wicked Saindhava offered me while residing in the forest?

Hi, Prof Indrajeet, welcome here!

Ok, few questions from me

"Why is Draupadi looked down upon in Buddhist Jatakas? While her son Sutasoma has a Jataka dedicated to him and is extolled gloriously, so much so that Buddha recalls his perivious birth as Sutasoma."

- Probably the Buddhist Jaataka composers could not digest Draupadii's polyandrous marriage - and so they kept searching for Draupadii's sixth lover. We cannot blame the Buddhist alone for this. There are many Folk Mahaabhaarata where Draupadii has sixth lover ... more often Krishna, but also Karna, and even Naaga-Raajaa Vaasukii (in Bhil Folk Mahaabhaarata) as well.

- However, in recent times, my ideas on such portrayal have changed. I do not consider portrayal of a Woman with multiple-lovers as some "evil portrayal." Actually Draupadii is the Archetypal Evolutionary Woman ... Any Male who has not come to terms with the Evolutionary Woman would surely panic at such a Woman and comment on her "character" (please remember that this entire concept of "character" is our legacy of Victorian Puritanism) ... whereas, a Male who has started seeing Life as-it-is, would find her nothing but fascinating. Well, same is the case with Female.

- Now, there is an interesting Yudhishthira-Bhiishma-Naarada-Pancacuura Narrative (13.38) in Anushaasana Parvan ... hope you have read that. There, speaking on Woman's nature (actually Evolutionary Nature), Apsaraa Pancacuura says that "Woman take any type of lovers ... even hump-backed ones ..." If we consider the Anushaasana Parvan as prior to Buddhist Jaatakas, then surely the Jaataka composer took clue from Pancacuura and foisted the hump-backed lover on Draupadii.

- Now, the Buddhist Jaatakas might look down upon Draupadii, but not the Buddhist Culture. Read Lalitavistara ... and there you find Draupadii mentioned as Devii capable of protecting -

"Ekaadashaa, Navanaamikaa,

Siitaa and Krishnaa Draupadii.

May they especially protect you

With health and well-being!"

- regarding Sutasoma ... there are two Sutasoma Jaatakas ... in one, Sutasoma is King of "Indapatta" ... Indraprashtha, that is. He may not be Draupadii's son. However, the Buddhist poets were no doubt fascinated by Mahaabhaarata ... I hope you have already read Ashvaghosa's Buddhacarita ... and you find there Ashvaghosha always drawing parallels from Mahaabhaaratan characters ...

"Jatakas give totally different picture of Draupadi(Kanhaa) , she selects five husbands in her swayamvar and is the princess of Kashi , is called a dwipitika- having two fathers, something unknown to the epic."

- Well, perhaps the Buddhist took the birth mystery of Draupadii to a logical conclusion. If Drupada is her father, then she being born of Agni, Agni is her father too! So, they have interpreted Draupadii's Birth-Myth in some rational way ... Well, even Mahaabhaarata-narrative may be interpreted that way. The two Rishis - Yaaja and Upayaaja might be biological fathers of Dhristadyumna and Draupadii ... I do not believe that, but going by the narrative, that is one probability. That is to say, Draupadii was born in Niyoga ... one reason of this probability is her dark complexion ... there is no dark-complexioned person in her family ...(this probability is of course negated again by Krishna and Arjuna ...and Nakula ...)

"Who has written Mahaprasthanika parva, if not Krishna dwaipayana/Vyasa?"

- I am sure you are sure that I am sure you are sure that I cannot be sure on that ... certainly a poet who wanted to interpret Mbh. in a different way ...

regards
Indrajit

In your ascent to heaven write-up, why did you make Indra lustful of Draupadi? Given his pre-knowledge that she is his daughter-in-law, especially.