{| Doubts and Discussions about Mahabharata - 2 |}

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 11 years ago

#651

S in the above is Sanjaya - I listed Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Sanjaya, Vidura & Kunti.

I was curious about that as well. Here, Parikshit would have been 36, being born just after the war. Nonetheless, Subhadra is left to care for both him & Vajra. Fine, but even the other Pandava wives - Devika, Valandhara, Karenamati and Vijaya - stay back @ Indraprastha. Which is strange, since their sons are either dead or dispersed, and their hubbies are on their way to swargalok.

Even Uloopi & Chitrangada - Uloopi returns presumably to her maayka, while Chitrangada returns to her son

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Radhika

@ashne

Rocker

Posted: 11 years ago

#652

Originally posted by: .Vrish.
S in the above is Sanjaya - I listed Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Sanjaya, Vidura & Kunti.

I was curious about that as well. Here, Parikshit would have been 36, being born just after the war. Nonetheless, Subhadra is left to care for both him & Vajra. Fine, but even the other Pandava wives - Devika, Valandhara, Karenamati and Vijaya - stay back @ Indraprastha. Which is strange, since their sons are either dead or dispersed, and their hubbies are on their way to swargalok.

Even Uloopi & Chitrangada - Uloopi returns presumably to her maayka, while Chitrangada returns to her son

Thanks, Vrish. Didn't Sanjaya have a family of his own. He seems to have always been around Dhrit.

Usually when a king (or any one) retires to the forest their spouses accompany them - like in the case of Pandu/ Dhrit. But since the Pandavas were trying to make their way to heaven, was it not possible for their wives (who were mortals compared to, Pandavas and Drau having divine origins) to do the same. Any idea about why the Pandavas choose to ascend heaven and not retire to the forest. Is it because they were sons of Gods, they assumed they would get into heaven in their human form.

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 10 years ago

#653

Sanjaya was Dhritarashtra's constant companion. No mention of a family of his own. But when the forest fire consumed DGK, Sanjaya, as advised by D, ran away and saved himself. He was never seen or heard of again.

Speaking of which, I thought it strange that Kripacharya didn't go into exile w/ them. I can't think of how the Pandavas would have reinstated him as kulguru, after his role in the sauptika massacre. In Ashramvatika Parva, he is mentioned as being one of Dhritarashrtra's companions while they were still @ Hastinapur. However, no mention is made of him accompanying Dhritarashtra.

To split the 36 years after the Pandavas won the war

First 15 years, DG lived peacefully w/ the Pandavas
Next 3 years, they retire to the forests w/ Sanjaya, Vidura & Kunti where they live. Vidura dies when the Pandavas visit, and DGK are consumed in a forest fire
Next 18 years, the Pandavas rule, until the mausala fratricide in Dwarka. After that, Parikshit succeeds the Purus and Vajra the Yadus

Edited by .Vrish. - 10 years ago

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Radhika

@ashne

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#654

Originally posted by: .Vrish.
Sanjaya was Dhritarashtra's constant companion. No mention of a family of his own. But when the forest fire consumed DGK, Sanjaya, as advised by D, ran away and saved himself. He was never seen or heard of again.

Speaking of which, I thought it strange that Kripacharya didn't go into exile w/ them. I can't think of how the Pandavas would have reinstated him as kulguru, after his role in the sauptika massacre. In Ashramvatika Parva, he is mentioned as being one of Dhritarashrtra's companions while they were still @ Hastinapur. However, no mention is made of him accompanying Dhritarashtra.

To split the 36 years after the Pandavas won the war
First 15 years, DG lived peacefully w/ the Pandavas
Next 3 years, they retire to the forests w/ Sanjaya, Vidura & Kunti where they live. Vidura dies when the Pandavas visit, and DGK are consumed in a forest fire
Next 18 years, the Pandavas rule, until the mausala fratricide in Dwarka. After that, Parikshit succeeds the Purus and Vajra the Yadus

I had asked a similar question previously about Kripacharya. When every character in MB (Kauravas, Pandavas, Karna, Shakuni, DHirt, Gand, Kunti etc) get their due punishment for their actions/inaction, how come there is no mention of Kripacharya getting any for his role in the massacre. I think it was Ananya, who mentioned that there are different Kripacharya's. Even so, the one who committed the crime should have been mentioned as being punished.

This leads to another question. even tho Kritavarma gets killed later on, how come the Pandavas let him go scott free or did they?

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ananyacool

@ananyacool

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#655

@ ashne: In Stri Parva Kripa is telling gandhari that after killing all remaining people in Pandava camp Kritvarma ran away to Dwarka . It is a big mystery how come he went unpunished

Originally posted by: Vrish
^^^ That only happens while they are still there. After DGSVK retire to the forests, they are free to attend to their hubbies. When the Pandavas finally retire in the Mahaprasthanika parva, their queens - barring Draupadi - stay back w/ Parikshit. Except Uloopi & Chitrangada. Uloopi retires to her watery kingdom - it's unclear whether this implies jal-samadhi, while Chitrangada returns to Babruvahana, since Arjun is now on his way out. Uttara is conspicuous by her absence. While reading Ashramvatika parva, it's mentioned that after the darshan of the fallen warriors, Vyasa invites all the Kshatrani widows to take jal-samadhi & rejoin their hubbies. Do you read that as implying that Uttara too joined Abhimanyu, leaving Parikshit in care of Subhadra/Arjun?

Actually I was surprised to read about Chitrangada staying at Hastinapur leaving her son, I feel she was there during Aswamedha only later of course she must have returned to Manipur but is present in ashramvasika also.

The Ashramvasika parva mentions Parikshit sitting on Uttara's lap! A 15 year old boy sitting on his mother's lap?!!😒 also there's a verse which say Uttara had recently become a mother! How can that be? These are some inconsistencies which we have to deal with.

Only Kuru ladies took a jal Samadhi, those who had lost husbands and sons...Uttara did not . Yudhi asks Subhi to take care because she's the next senior, all other wives were there with respective sons in their kingdoms. Ulupi's kingdom was in 'water' so can't say she took jal- Samadhi.

No major role for women in post war parvas, even Drau speaks one or two lines ...

We can understand why other wives were not taken for Mahaprasthanika...too many wives, too much crowd😆 as it is its difficult to manage Drau alone, imagine if all wives were there an unruly classroom! .

Jokes apart, Mahaprasthanika is a metaphor written by a poet who was very influenced by Upanishads and Brahmanas since Pandavas and their wife were/are people du jour it 'stars' them.

Edited by ananyacool - 10 years ago

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Radhika

@ashne

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#656

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Actually I was surprised to read about Chitrangada staying at Hastinapur leaving her son, I feel she was there during Aswamedha only later of course she must have returned to Manipur but is present in ashramvasika also.

The Ashramvasika parva mentions Parikshit sitting on Uttara's lap! A 15 year old boy sitting on his mother's lap?!!😒 also there's a verse which say Uttara had recently become a mother! How can that be? These are some inconsistencies which we have to deal with.

Only Kuru ladies took a jal Samadhi, those who had lost husbands and sons...Uttara did not . Yudhi asks Subhi to take care because she's the next senior, all other wives were there with respective sons in their kingdoms. Ulupi's kingdom was in 'water' so can't say she took jal- Samadhi.

No major role for women in post war parvas, even Drau speaks one or two lines ...

We can understand why other wives were not taken for Mahaprasthanika...too many wives, too much crowd😆 as it is its difficult to manage Drau alone, imagine if all wives were there an unruly classroom! .

Jokes apart, Mahaprasthanika is a metaphor written by a poet who was very influenced by Upanishads and Brahmanas since Pandavas and their wife were/are people du jour it 'stars' them.

Babruvahan would have been an adult by the end of the war, right. Considering that he was born during Arjun's vanvas. So Chitra being in Hastinapur, seems logical. And he also fights Arjun, as a king, if I'm not mistaken during Ashwamedha.

Abhi was considered young, when he died around 36 yrs of age. So I guess a 15 yr old Parikshit sitting on uttara's lap is not surprising. I have read that the Pandavas, themselves were in their 40s and 50s during Drau swayamvar.

How was Subhi the next senior. Wasn't Devika, Valandara, Uloopi and Chithrangadha senior to her at least in station. Or was she chosen because she was biologically related to both Parikshit and Vajra.

So Mahaprasthanika is not written by Vyasa?

Edited by ashne - 10 years ago

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 10 years ago

#657

Originally posted by: ananyacool
@ ashne: In Stri Parva Kripa is telling gandhari that after killing all remaining people in Pandava camp Kritvarma ran away to Dwarka . It is a big mystery how come he went unpunished
.

Actually I was surprised to read about Chitrangada staying at Hastinapur leaving her son, I feel she was there during Aswamedha only later of course she must have returned to Manipur but is present in ashramvasika also.
The Ashramvasika parva mentions Parikshit sitting on Uttara's lap! A 15 year old boy sitting on his mother's lap?!!😒 also there's a verse which say Uttara had recently become a mother! How can that be? These are some inconsistencies which we have to deal with.
Only Kuru ladies took a jal Samadhi, those who had lost husbands and sons...Uttara did not . Yudhi asks Subhi to take care because she's the next senior, all other wives were there with respective sons in their kingdoms. Ulupi's kingdom was in 'water' so can't say she took jal- Samadhi.
No major role for women in post war parvas, even Drau speaks one or two lines ...
We can understand why other wives were not taken for Mahaprasthanika...too many wives, too much crowd😆 as it is its difficult to manage Drau alone, imagine if all wives were there an unruly classroom! .
Jokes apart, Mahaprasthanika is a metaphor written by a poet who was very influenced by Upanishads and Brahmanas since Pandavas and their wife were/are people du jour it 'stars' them.

Bold above - IIRC, this happens before Vyasa gives everybody a darshan of their beloved dead. When Dhrit wishes to see Dury & others, everybody is brought back. Dhrit & Gandhari get greeted by Dury & his bros, Kunti gets to meet Karna, who gets reconciled w/ the Pandavas. Abhimanyu rejoins Subhadra & Uttara, Draupadi is joined by her 5 sons, Dhrishtadyumna, Drupada & others, and everyone comes together.

When it's time for the dead to leave, Vyasa invites the Kshatrani widows to cast off their bodies in the water and leave. Nobody is named, but one can conclude that all the widows who were still living in Hastinapur under the care of the Pandavas got to rejoin their hubbies. I therefore concluded that Uttara too used the opportunity to leave Parikshit w/ Arjun/Subhi and join Abhimanyu.

Here is the relevant citation - I mentioned that a few pages ago actually -on pg 69

Originally posted by: .Vrish.
Question - does this narrative from Ashramvatika parva suggest that Uttara too drowned herself so that she could join Abhimanyu? Probably leaving Parikshit in the care of Arjun & Subhi?
There was no grief, no fear, no suspicion, no discontent, no reproach in that region, as those warriors, O monarch, met with one another on that night. Meeting with their sires and brothers and husbands and sons, the ladies cast off all grief and felt great raptures of delight. Having sported with one another thus for one night, those heroes and those ladies, embracing one another and taking one another's leave returned to the places they had come from. Indeed, that foremost of ascetics dismissed that concourse of warriors. Within the twinkling of an eye that large crowd disappeared in the very sight of all those (living) persons. Those high-souled persons, plunging into the sacred river Bhagirathi proceeded, with their cars and standards, to their respective abodes. Some went to the regions of the gods, some to the region of Brahman, some to the region of Varuna, and some to the region of Kuvera. Some among those kings proceeded to the region of Surya. Amongst the Rakshasas and Pisachas some proceeded to the country of Uttara-Kurus. Others, moving in delightful attitudes, went in the company of the deities. Even thus did all those high-souled persons disappear with their vehicles and animals and with all their followers. After all of them had gone away, the great sage, who was standing in the waters of the sacred stream viz., Vyasa of great righteousness and energy, that benefactor of the Kurus, then addressed those Kshatriya ladies who had become widows, and said these words, 'Let those amongst these foremost of women that are desirous of attaining to the regions acquired by their husbands cast away all sloth and quickly plunge into the sacred Bhagirathi.--Hearing these words of his, those foremost ladies, placing faith in them, took the permission of their father-in-law, and then plunged into the waters of the Bhagirathi. Freed from human bodies, those chaste ladies then proceeded, O king, with their husbands to the regions acquired by the latter. Even thus, those ladies of virtuous conduct, devoted to their husbands entering, the waters of the Bhagirathi, became freed from their mortal tenements and attained to the companionship of their husbands in the regions acquired by them. Endued with celestial forms, and adorned with celestial ornaments, and wearing celestial vestments and garlands, they proceeded to those regions where their husbands had found their abodes. Possessed of excellent behaviour and many virtues, their anxieties all dispelled, they were seen to ride on excellent cars, and endued with every accomplishment they found those regions of happiness which were theirs by right. Devoted to the duties of piety, Vyasa, at that time, becoming a giver of boons, granted unto all the men there assembled the fruition of the wishes they respectively cherished.

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 10 years ago

#658

Ananya, on the rest of what you wrote, there'd be no reason to manage the wives - they'd die whenever they did. Even Draupadi, who was the first to die - when she fell, the Pandavas just moved on, and kept falling to their deaths one by one.

Chitrangada being in Hastinapur was no surprise - her dutiful place would have been next to Arjun while he was alive, but due to her responsibilities in raising Babru, she remained @ Manipur to the point that he became king. Once they were in Hastinapur for the yagna, when it came time for Babru to return, Uloopi & Chitrangada remained w/ Arjun. They only returned when it was time for Arjun to leave along w/ his bros.

But here too, I thought the surviving wives should have just accompanied their hubbies on that final journey.

P.S. Why did Krishna ask Daruka to just fetch Arjun? He could have given him the complete message to ask Yudhi to abdicate, turn over the kingdom to Parikshit and all 5 Pandavas to go to Dwarka & escort the survivors back to Mathura. Arjun needlessly took 2 trips.

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Radhika

@ashne

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#659

Originally posted by: .Vrish.
Ananya, on the rest of what you wrote, there'd be no reason to manage the wives - they'd die whenever they did. Even Draupadi, who was the first to die - when she fell, the Pandavas just moved on, and kept falling to their deaths one by one.

Chitrangada being in Hastinapur was no surprise - her dutiful place would have been next to Arjun while he was alive, but due to her responsibilities in raising Babru, she remained @ Manipur to the point that he became king. Once they were in Hastinapur for the yagna, when it came time for Babru to return, Uloopi & Chitrangada remained w/ Arjun. They only returned when it was time for Arjun to leave along w/ his bros.

But here too, I thought the surviving wives should have just accompanied their hubbies on that final journey.

P.S. Why did Krishna ask Daruka to just fetch Arjun? He could have given him the complete message to ask Yudhi to abdicate, turn over the kingdom to Parikshit and all 5 Pandavas to go to Dwarka & escort the survivors back to Mathura. Arjun needlessly took 2 trips.

I thot so too. It must have been pretty depressing for the ladies to live there without children and husbands, Parikshit was there, but still 😒

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ananyacool

@ananyacool

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#660

Originally posted by: ashne
Babruvahan would have been an adult by the end of the war, right. Considering that he was born during Arjun's vanvas. So Chitra being in Hastinapur, seems logical. And he also fights Arjun, as a king, if I'm not mistaken during Ashwamedha.

Agreed on the part, Chitrangada being in Hastinapur. Yes Babruvahan fights and kills Arjun and revived later by Ulupi in Ashwamedhika Parva.

Originally posted by: ashne
Abhi was considered young, when he died around 36 yrs of age. So I guess a 15 yr old Parikshit sitting on uttara's lap is not surprising. I have read that the Pandavas, themselves were in their 40s and 50s during Drau swayamvar.

Abhi was called a 'mere boy' because the people around him were 80, 90 and Bhishm was 100 +

In Ashramvasika Parva chapter 3 : five and ten years( after war) had passed when the old king Dhrirashtra resolved on going to forest along with Gandhari, Kunti too joins them.

Then in chapter 15 Uttara is mentioned as the one who had recently become a mother!

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m15/m15015.htm

10 chapter's later Sanjay is introducing Pandavas, and their wives , Kaurava widows and Uttara to various sages present there; Parikshit is sitting on Uttara's lap

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m15/m15025.htm

If he is born during Ashwamedhika parva and still sits on his mother's lap, being a 15 year old, its too much to take.

Originally posted by: ashne
How was Subhi the next senior. Wasn't Devika, Valandara, Uloopi and Chithrangadha senior to her at least in station. Or was she chosen because she was biologically related to both Parikshit and Vajra.

Devika is just mentioned once in Adiparva (Sambhava sub parva) later she is missing. If she were there then would be mentioned and she would follow Yudhi to forest but it is not so. The other wives are not mentioned taking part in matter of politics,; Yudhi specifically asks Subhi to take care of Parikshit as you say because he was her grandson

Originally posted by: ashne
So Mahaprasthanika is not written by Vyasa?

If you find time read John Brockington's literary criticism on Mahabharat specially post war parvas. He clearly says Sauptika, Shanti Anushasana and Mahaprasthanika a later additions and he is not alone to say so . These were added time to time

Edited by ananyacool - 10 years ago

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