All discussions- before-during-after Dice game/VH here only/ DT Nt-128 - Page 17

Originally posted by: -Shruti

Perhaps a moral obligation won't fit in the case of Kauravas but it can't be denied completely. Draupadi was their sister-in-law, and Indian culture treats them equivalent to a mother.
Yes the pandavas were responsible too, there's no doubt about it. But the blame can't be shifted on Yudhisthira alone, all five were equally responsible. Bhima's share is debatable though!

Well ya i agree all pandavas not only yudi may be Bheema can be spared

i was talking about all pandvas and all kauravas.if we have blame some one for Draupadi's disgrace i would perhaps blame pandavas first like i said they were her husbands they were under oath to protect her kauravas werent.What kauravas did was wrong on humanitarian grounds no doubt but pandavas were the one's who had the responsibility to protect Drauapdi's honour not others

Its like when your husband cheats on you whom do you blame your husband or the other woman i say blame your husband first he is the one obligated to be loyal to you

this vastraharan episode is truly the most contradictory in the book i have read . i will try to list here a few contradictions:

1. the question of whether draupadi was actually disrobed or not is already being discussed in another thread. i am not mentioning it here again . its true that in the rest of the book , its never mentioned that she was disrobed , only dragged by her hair.

2. yudi the smart ass always says before staking his brothers that " however undeserving he may be to be staked in play, with him as stake I will play," , but doesnt say so for draupadi before staking her. instead he is busy admiring her beauty!!!
"Of slender waist like that of the wasp, of long flowing locks, of red lips, and body without down, is the princess of Panchala. O king, making the slender-waisted Draupadi, who is even such as my stake, I will play with thee, O son of Suvala.'"

3. like i have said before, yudi hesitates a bit before staking arjun and bhima and does sunsequently so after prompting from shakuni. so much for loving equally!!!

4.yudi after losing drau sits "like one deprived of senses " thats what the book says and barely few paras later yudi revives his senses , sends a msg to drau to come in a single piece of cloth before dhrit crying petiously. if he had time and permission to send a msg why coulnt he tell drau to instead wear something appropriate??? i can only think yudi wanted the drama to happen so hec ould be freed!!

5. when dury asks the others to declare yudi as not their master, and then he will free drau , bhima who initially is angry on yudi says that he is our master, but arjuna who earlier stops bheema indirectly says that after losing himself yudi ceased to be anyone's master!!
Bhimasena, waving his strong and well-formed arms smeared with sandalpaste spake these words,--'If this high-souled king Yudhishthira the just, who is our eldest brother, had not been our lord, we would never have forgiven the Kuru race (for all this). He is the lord of all our religious and ascetic merits, the lord of even our lives. If he regardeth himself as won, we too have all been won.
"Arjuna at this, said,--"This illustrious son of Kunti, king Yudhishthira the just, was certainly our master before he began to play. But having lost himself, let all the Kauravas judge whose master he could be
after that."

6. and here is a big shocker for all those who were happy with bhima protesting throughout the dice game. afetr he is freed he is more worried as to how he can beget a good son from an insulted wife!!
"Hearing these words of Karna in the midst of the Kurus,--viz., that the sons of Pandu were saved by their wife,--the angry Bhimasena in great affliction said (unto Arjuna),--'O Dhananjaya, it hath been said by Devala three lights reside in every person, viz., offspring, acts and
learning, for from these three hath sprung creation. When life becometh extinct and the body becometh impure and is cast off by relatives, these three become of service to every person. But the light that is in us hath been dimmed by this act of insult to our wife. How, O Arjuna, can a son born from this insulted wife of ours prove serviceable to us?

Originally posted by: bhas1066

true diala
shakuni do tell yudi to stake drau. but a point to note is that he does not say so for his brothers!! yudi staked his brothers by himself. one wonders if yudi wouldnt have staked them , woould shakuni have told yudi to stake drau? its debatable. so yes yudi is to be blamed here before shakuni.

<font color="#0000FF">"Sakuni continued,--'O king, the sons of Madri, dear unto thee, have both been won by me. It would seem, however, that Bhimasena and Dhananjaya are regarded very much by thee.'
"Yudhishthira said,--'Wretch! thou actest sinfully in thus seeking to create disunion amongst us who are all of one heart, disregarding morality.'
"Sakuni said,--'One that is intoxicated falleth into a pit (hell) and stayeth there deprived of the power of motion. Thou art, O king, senior to us in age, and possessed of the highest accomplishments. O bull of
the Bharata race, I (beg my pardon and) bow to thee. Thou knowest, O Yudhishthira, that gamesters, while excited with play, utter such ravings that they never indulge in the like of them in their waking
moments nor even in dream.'
"Yudhishthira said,--He that taketh us like a boat to the other shore of the sea of battle, he that is ever victorious over foes, the prince who is endued with great activity, he who is the one hero in this world,
(is here). With that Falguna as stake, however, undeserving of being made so, I will now play with thee'"</font>

how do we interpret those lines in bold above? that yudi did hesitate to stake arjun and bhima ?that he knew what he was doing was wrong!!!
clearly he doesnt think twice before staking nakul and sahadev, unprompted. but hesitates for arjun and bhima and stakes them only after shakuni promps him.

and while other times he sits stupified what about this message he sends to draupadi?:

<font color="#0000FF">"Yudhishthira, however, O bull of the Bharata race, hearing of Duryodhana's intentions, sent a trusted messenger unto Draupadi, directing that although she was attired in one piece of cloth with her navel itself exposed, in consequence of her season having come, she should come before her father-in-law weeping bitterly. </font>"

I think yudi was fully traped at this instance. if he refused,gen message would have been he did partitiality with his stepbrothers nakul and sahdev.as usne madri k putro ko to daaw pe laga diya par apne bhaiyon ki bat aayi to pichhe hat gaya.the unity overover which pandavas were proud would be b broken.that was master move by shakuni.i give him credit for this.because yudi arjun aur bheem k bal pe uchalata tha aur unko daaw pe lagwa kar shakuni ne yudi ko nihaththa bana diya tha.upar se jub uske jakhkhmo pe namak chhidakane ki bari aayi to drau ka daaw chala.agar yudi bolata ki main drau ko ni laga sakta to yani wo already jeet li gayi h ya phir wo proposal accept kare.ho sakta h iss bar wo wapas subb kuchh jeet jaye.here shakuni comes out as gr8 strategist,jaise chess me charo taraf se opposite party ki queen ko gher kar checkmate diya jata h taki wo usse nikal na paye,waise hi ye pura game shatranj ki bisaat thi aur yudi puri tarah trap ho chuka tha.use game start hi ni karna chahiye tha but jub usne game start kar diya to wo pichhe ni hat sakta tha

@bhas u correctly said there are so many contradictions and disgusting things in dice game episode. to b honest I am happy that I am in kalyuga rather than so called dharma yuga "dwapar". it is rightly said mahabharat contains everything from worst human emotions, actions to highest values. it protrayes the animal in men,dharmatma in men,selfishness as well as selflessness in humans. ise kahye h samaj ki nangi tasveer

Originally posted by: ...Diala...

The last part about what Bhima says, I understand that as 'how will our sons be serviceable to us/respect us as we have been helplessly watching their mother being insulted'

hmmm.. you r right ... one can take it in positive manner but how would this relate to the words said next by arjuna to paify bheema

"Arjuna replied,--'Superior persons, O Bharata, never prate about the harsh words that may or may not be uttered by inferior men. Persons that have earned respect for themselves, even if they are able to retaliate, remember not the acts of hostility done by their enemies, but, on the other hand, treasure up only their good deeds."

Originally posted by: srishtisingh

I think yudi was fully traped at this instance. if he refused,gen message would have been he did partitiality with his stepbrothers nakul and sahdev.as usne madri k putro ko to daaw pe laga diya par apne bhaiyon ki bat aayi to pichhe hat gaya.the unity overover which pandavas were proud would be b broken.that was master move by shakuni.i give him credit for this.because yudi arjun aur bheem k bal pe uchalata tha aur unko daaw pe lagwa kar shakuni ne yudi ko nihaththa bana diya tha.upar se jub uske jakhkhmo pe namak chhidakane ki bari aayi to drau ka daaw chala.agar yudi bolata ki main drau ko ni laga sakta to yani wo already jeet li gayi h ya phir wo proposal accept kare.ho sakta h iss bar wo wapas subb kuchh jeet jaye.here shakuni comes out as gr8 strategist,jaise chess me charo taraf se opposite party ki queen ko gher kar checkmate diya jata h taki wo usse nikal na paye,waise hi ye pura game shatranj ki bisaat thi aur yudi puri tarah trap ho chuka tha.use game start hi ni karna chahiye tha but jub usne game start kar diya to wo pichhe ni hat sakta tha

but shakuni could not have made the master move had not yudi straked nakul first. that was not prompted by shakuni, but pure ego of yudi. see he stakes nakul and sahadev so easily and in that order. but when it comes to the trio, he has to be prompted each time for arjun , then bheem. if he staked nakul first since he is elder of the twins , he should have staked himself first right since he is eldest of trio. the divide between madri's osns and kunti's sons does come through here.

Originally posted by: bhas1066

hmmm.. you r right ... one can take it in positive manner but how would this relate to the words said next by arjuna to paify bheema

"Arjuna replied,--'Superior persons, O Bharata, never prate about the harsh words that may or may not be uttered by inferior men. Persons that have earned respect for themselves, even if they are able to retaliate, remember not the acts of hostility done by their enemies, but, on the other hand, treasure up only their good deeds."

can anyone tell me what was the age of draupadi at the time of vastraharan ... i mean she must have been old enough and mother of few children as well... how could they do such a shameful task?