'Mahabharat- Different Versions -Perspectives' - Page 43

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TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
@bheegi

Where does it say Arjuna defeated Karna?, it doesn't even say that Arjuna excelled him. They fought for a while and Karna was surprised about how can a Brahmin fight with him when he is angry. CR is this matter is ditto of KMG except the last part, KMG says the Brahma weapon whereas CR says Brahamana.

One query since you have Debroy's translation, Arjuna vs Karna day 16th ended with Karna sparing Arjuna according to the Critical Edtion, Does Debroy's translation mention this?, and CR also says Karna was drunk during the Gandharva war too, any confirmation from Debroy's?


ElMystique thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Narrative:

"As regards myself, assailed by all the Gandharvas, I fled before thy eyes, unable to rally our flying host. Assailed by the foe with all his might, my body mangled with their arrows, I sought safety in flight. This however, O Bharata, seemed to me to be a great marvel that I behold you all come safe and sound in body, with your wives, troops, and vehicles, out of that super-human encounter. O Bharata, there is another man in this world who can achieve what thou, O king, hast achieved in battle to-day with thy brothers."

Vaisampayana continued, "Thus addressed by Karna, king Duryodhana replied unto the ruler of the Angas in a voice choked with tears."

KMG

Edited by frappie - 11 years ago
bheegi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

@bheegi

Where does it say Arjuna defeated Karna?, it doesn't even say that Arjuna excelled him. They fought for a while and Karna was surprised about how can a Brahmin fight with him when he is angry. CR is this matter is ditto of KMG except the last part, KMG says the Brahma weapon whereas CR says Brahamana.

One query since you have Debroy's translation, Arjuna vs Karna day 16th ended with Karna sparing Arjuna according to the Critical Edtion, Does Debroy's translation mention this?, and CR also says Karna was drunk during the Gandharva war too, any confirmation from Debroy's?



I've just read book 1 so far. I'll definitely let you know when I get to the Gandharv and war parts

As far as Arjun vs Karna at the swaymvar is concerned, BD's translation of CE clearly stated that Karna withdrew because the brahmana (here Arjun in disguise) was invincible. Here is another part that confirms it:

Then the immensely powerful Bhima raised Shalya up with his arms and hurled him down on the ground. The Brahmanas began to laugh. Bhimasena, bull among men, surprised everyone. 40 But though he hurled the powerful one on the ground, he did not kill him. When Shalya was thus hurled down by Bhima and Karna scared away, all the other kings were frightened and surrounded Vrikodara. They said, "These bulls among Brahmanas are supreme. Let us find out in what lineage they were born and where they live.


Debroy, Bibek (2010-03-17). Mahabharata Vol. 1 (Penguin Translated Texts) (Kindle Locations 7064-7067). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.
Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: bheegi



As far as Arjun vs Karna at the swaymvar is concerned, BD's translation of CE clearly stated that Karna withdrew because the brahmana (here Arjun in disguise) was invincible. Here is another part that confirms it:

Then the immensely powerful Bhima raised Shalya up with his arms and hurled him down on the ground. The Brahmanas began to laugh. Bhimasena, bull among men, surprised everyone. 40 But though he hurled the powerful one on the ground, he did not kill him. When Shalya was thus hurled down by Bhima and Karna scared away, all the other kings were frightened and surrounded Vrikodara. They said, "These bulls among Brahmanas are supreme. Let us find out in what lineage they were born and where they live.


Debroy, Bibek (2010-03-17). Mahabharata Vol. 1 (Penguin Translated Texts) (Kindle Locations 7064-7067). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.


thanks for this bheegi 😊
Even in KMG it is written that he withdrew due to fear of brahma weapon --- got scared, withdrew -- lost. Does it mention that Arjuna made him faint -- it was in KMG.
Withdrawing because you are fearing you will get killed is defeat -- you dont need to declare hey i lost you won.
it is his shortcoming that he pulled away from fight -- Arjuna acquired his weapons by his own abilities and merits so obviously he would use them -- now it is up to the opponent if they can handle it or would rather give up.
bheegi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Like most people, Karna wants to be somebody'. It must have hurt to sit in the stands at the tournament, ignored, as Arjuna enjoyed the admiration of the world. Later, when his own skill is discovered and he is praised by the crowd, Karna begins to feel worthy. Anxiety about one's place in the world tends to distort one's character. It makes Karna excessively proud. Like Achilles in the Iliad, he refuses to fight at the beginning of the war because he has been slighted by Bhishma.17 Status anxiety also makes him boastful and self-promoting, something that does not go down well with the noblemen of the old school. Bhishma chides him, Although [Karna] always boasts, saying "I shall slay the Pandavas", he doesn't possess even a small part of the Pandavas' great soul.'18 Kripa, the instructor of martial arts, finds him exasperating, Son of a charioteer, you growl like an autumn cloud that is without water!'19 To which Karna replies good-naturedly, Heroes always thunder like storm clouds in the monsoon, but like a seed dropped to the earth in the [rainy] season they quickly bear fruit.'20 Boasting is, of course, a critical part of heroic poetry. A noble hero is expected to show pride and disdain in order to evoke the heroic rasa, mood'.21 But Karna also boasts in order to to be observed, to be attended to, to be taken notice of with sympathy, complacency and approbation'.22 The attention of other people matters because human beings are uncertain of their own worth.

The writer Alain de Botton explains that our sense of identity is held hostage to the opinion of others: We may not admit it, but the truth is that we all seek to be loved by the world. When we are babies, we are loved whether we burp or scream or break our toys. But as we grow up, we are suddenly thrown into a world where people judge us by our achievements or our status (rather than as our mothers did). Hence our anxiety about how we are perceived. No human being is immune from this weakness.'23 The ego (ahamkara, theI-maker') is a leaky balloon, forever requiring helium of external love to remain inflated, and ever vulnerable to the smallest pinpricks of neglect. There is something at once sobering and absurd in the extent to which we are lifted by the attentions of others and sunk by their disregard.'24 Even great heroes like Yudhishthira and Arjuna are guilty of this sort of vanity.

In feudal societies, people worried less about their social position. Status was determined at birth and there was little hope for moving upwards. Indeed, if Karna had not possessed outstanding talent and a burning ambition, he might have led a reasonably well-adjusted life as a charioteer's son. But he was a kshatriya warrior who, the epic tells us, had an inborn svabhava, natural inclination', for a heroic life. He wanted to learn the use of the Brahmastra, the highest martial art. Even when Drona told him that only a brahmin or a kshatriya was permitted to learn it, Karna did not give up. He was driven to realize his natural potential.

Karna's search for his identity reminds one of the terrible mistake that society makes in forcing individuals to privilege one identity over all the others. Karna has many identities: he is a caring son, an outstanding warrior, a father, a husband, an extremely generous person, a loyal friend of Duryodhana's. Why must his father's background trump his many rich"perhaps, far richer"identities and become the sole basis of his status in society?



Das, Gurcharan (2010-09-03). The Difficulty of Being Good:On the Subtle Art of Dharma (Kindle Locations 3161-3172). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Medha.S


thanks for this bheegi 😊
Even in KMG it is written that he withdrew due to fear of brahma weapon --- got scared, withdrew -- lost. Does it mention that Arjuna made him faint -- it was in KMG.
Withdrawing because you are fearing you will get killed is defeat -- you dont need to declare hey i lost you won.
it is his shortcoming that he pulled away from fight -- Arjuna acquired his weapons by his own abilities and merits so obviously he would use them -- now it is up to the opponent if they can handle it or would rather give up.


Frankly, to me, it was more of awe rather than fear. There's no good reason why Karna should be scared of Brahmastra or even Brahmashira as he himself possessed both of them along with Bhargavastra, and not to mention the impenetrable armour. I always interpreted that as withdrawal out of chivalrous admiration rather than cowardly back out. And that's how most other authors/serial makers have interpreted as well..

DrModel thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

karna said to krishna "it is honor and fame that i live for. More than anything else!!I live to fight Arjuna and if I chnage sides the world will not witness this duel. I am an archer and so is Arjuna. the world must discover in battle what the truth is?"

From MAHABHARATA: A MODERN RENDERING BY RAMESH MENON
DrModel thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
So much for KMG being THE SOURCE and disregarding ALL other authors.
Disney UTV, Sid Roy Kapoor and Abhishek Kapoor do NOT think so.

I have news

In June 2013, Disney UTV purchased the rights to Banker's ongoing Mahabharata Series, with Banker commissioned to adapt the epic himself in an original screenplay intended for a big-budget live-action feature film adaptation in Hindi and Sanskrit, to be split into two parts for release in 2016/17.Disney India CEO Siddhartha Roy Kapur is attached to produce and Director Abhishek Kapoor is signed to direct the film.[31][32][33]

AND: since wiki is considered crap and anyone can edit

here is proof from TOI, Deccan Chronicle and Abhishek Kapoor has confirmed.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Entertainment/Hindi/Bollywood/News-Interviews/Now-the-entire-Mahabharata-on-the-big-screen/articleshow/32548375.cms

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/140324/entertainment-bollywood/article/disney-india-bring-mahabharata-life-celluloid

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news-interviews/This-will-be-my-Lord-of-the-Rings-Abhishek-Kapoor/articleshow/32585485.cms


Its a pity really!! the big guns with the money, Disney UTV did not even think, "its free online; lets use IT as main source"

Instead, author with his own INTERPRETATION is going to write screenplay and script.
Edited by DrModel - 11 years ago
Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Has anybody here read Meghnad Desai's book 'Who wrote the Bhagwad Geeta- A secular enquiry into a sacred text.'
riti4u thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
@Bheegi - thanks for sharing this on Karna.. I loved this part the most here "Karna's search for his identity reminds one of the terrible mistake that society makes in forcing individuals to privilege one identity over all the others. Karna has many identities: he is a caring son, an outstanding warrior, a father, a husband, an extremely generous person, a loyal friend of Duryodhana's. Why must his father's background trump his many rich"perhaps, far richer"identities and become the sole basis of his status in society?"
so this book details on character analysis ..or it is also intrepretation of epic events?

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