{| Doubts and Discussions about Mahabharata |} - Page 107

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varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Medha


The other thing about Karna being known - from my reading of both the Adi Parva & the Shanti Parva portions, it's clear that when Karna gatecrashed that event, Drona's students recognized him, but didn't know him. Duryodhan did not address him by name, but Arjun did.

In school, I knew the names of several kids in other classes, but nothing more about them. That may well have been the case w/ Karna as well - Arjun may have known him by name, but just that, and nothing more. The claim that Duryodhan was friends w/ Karna in Drona's gurukul is unsupported even by Shanti Parva: Karna became Duryodhan's friend after that tournament, and following that, he became Parashurama's disciple for the same time that Arjun & Sahadev did advanced training w/ Drona, and Bhima did advanced training in mace fighting w/ Balarama. That would be the period b/w the defeat of Drupada and the house of lac.

That is supported by Duryodhan addressing him as 'O mighty-armed warrior!', 'O polite one', 'O represser of enemies'... in the Adi parva account of their first encounter.





I have one very general comment to make here. It is not possible to analyze and scrutinize this epic in an attempt to arrive any logical conclusion. Reason? This is a poetic work and not a scientific research paper.

The fact that Duryodhana does not address him by name but Arjuna does, does not prove anything. Vyasa may have wanted to insert "karna" in Duryodhana' s speech but could not do so

The reason being, - Vyasa was writing in verse, not prose. And the rules of poetry in Sanskrit are pretty rigid. Depending on the kind of chandda being used, only a certain number and certain kind of syllables can be used. Though Vyasa has primarily only used Anushthup and trishtup chanda, it can get restricting. So duryodhana's "O mighty-armed warrior!', 'O polite one', 'O represser of enemies'... " may be nothing more than an attempt to fit into the chandda.

Those who have tried to write verse in Sanskit can appreciate this point best.

Another point- If we see the language used in those days, a direct address by name was considered impolite- unless it was by father / mother/ elder brother. A technique considered more refined was to address through some appellation like "O mighty-armed warrior!', 'O polite one', 'O represser of enemies'.

This is a very general guideline which may be kept in mind while quoting willy nilly from KMG and attempting a threadbare analysis.




Edited by varaali - 11 years ago
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
so varali what is the conclusion was he friend of dury from gurukul or not?
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
another qu I have posted earlier : why some people regard krishna as different diety? what is this parambrahma? is he same as brahma? who is kalpurush? is he some kind of indian version of chaos?
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
@varaali.. how is both of them seeking each others friendship in the talent contest to be considered?
If they all knew each other, why did Bhim wait till Adiratha's entry to insult Karna over his caste? why dint he know what was Karna's caste he being his class mate?
Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Perhaps they didn't made it a habit of asking each others caste in gurukul? 🤔
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

no way that they were so ethical.. probably knowing each others caste would have been more ethical those days 😆..

varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Diala

As I said earlier, a threadbare, word - to word analysis will not provide any logical conclusion, for the reason I stated above: this is a poetic work, not a scientific one.


I never claimed Pandavas and karna knew / not know each other. In fact I just offered a general guideline, regarding the usage of words / meters in Sanskrit poetry.


If I attempt to answer your question, it will be a mere conjecture of mine and hence, debatable. Therefore, I will desist.


There are some sections in the MB like the Y - Y samvada, which have been subject to word- by word scrutiny by great scholars and there if we have a doubt, we can turn to their researches.
Edited by varaali - 11 years ago
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
varali can u answer my another qu on previous page? satyabhata told u might answer that qu.
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: varaali

I never claimed Pandavas and karna knew / not know each other. In fact I just offered a general guideline, regarding the usage of words / meters in Sanskrit poetry.

ok the way of addressing might be for rhyme or something.. but bhima knowing Karna's caste post entry of Adirath should be clear enough right? else isn't that unnecessary? earlier I do remember you said that they were familiar since gurukul..
anyway now if say you dont have any claim on that then I will not trouble you 😊
Edited by ...Diala... - 11 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: varaali

Diala

As I said earlier, a threadbare, word - to word analysis will not provide any logical conclusion, for the reason I stated above: this is a poetic work, not a scientific one.


I never claimed Pandavas and karna knew / not know each other. In fact I just offered a general guideline, regarding the usage of words / meters in Sanskrit poetry.


If I attempt to answer your question, it will be a mere conjecture of mine and hence, debatable. Therefore, I will desist.


There are some sections in the MB like the Y - Y samvada, which have been subject to word- by word scrutiny by great scholars and there if we have a doubt, we can turn to their researches.



In that case, nothing can be concluded from the MB. Since it's a work of poetry, as opposed to a historical work, it is allowed to contradict itself in different places just so that the rules about the composition of verses are followed.

Which is fine & dandy, except that once it starts contradicting itself in different places, its credibility is shot. And the number of holes one could poke would make it look like swiss cheese. Just one example at the drop of a crown - Shikhandi's son Kshatradeva is described in one place as being killed by Drona, and in another place as being killed by Duryodhan's Laxman. Do Sanskrit poetry licenses allow this as well?

Valmiki's work, for instance, almost never has such internal contradictions, which is why one could pick a quote out of anywhere, and not have it contradicted elsewhere. Only exception - claiming in different places that Rama's rule was 10k and 11k years.

Vyasa, OTOH, not only is contradictory b/w his different works (which usually have to be read in combination to make sense of certain things: e.g. in Mausala parva, there is no way one would know about Kritavarma's role in the murder of Satyabhama's father, referenced by Satyaki just b4 he slays the former, unless one had read SB), but is even contradicted within a single work. Like in Adi Parva, there is no mention of Karna asking anything from Indra, but in Vana Parva there is. What does one conclude w/o doing a threadbare analysis?

My point being - if one puts the poetry rules disclaimer to refute conclusions made from a combined reading of different sections, it just feeds into the assertion of critics that the story is mythical, as opposed to mythological, much less historical.
Edited by .Vrish. - 11 years ago

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