Episode Discussion: 12th Oct 2012

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Sonu

@applenpeaches

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#81

Originally posted by: leelaa9
Re. the Rishbala marriage and relationship status, I feel that Madhu is - sometimes quite unconsciously - very much her mother's daughter when it comes to the conservative orthodox understanding of marriage as a commitment for not just one but multiple lifetimes.😛

Thank you ,Thank you, Thank you for writing this.. I wanted to read someone saying this.. This was my feeling right from the moment they married.. It was not always highlighted, but Madhu is her mother's daughter!!! A big hug for saying that.. 🤗

Read only this line...Have to read the rest...

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Shridevi Gaddam

@0-SD-0

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#82

Leela,

>>>>So why then did she feel that her faith would not last if RK died?

Was it because she had goaded him into reconciling with his long-estranged friend Ganpati Bappa?😕 But she had not succeeded in her goading. She had not been able to bring about a happy reunion.

It was the Lord Himself who finally took a hand in the matter.

Yes. She knows she was the one goading him into. She told RK, he can live in his room until Ganesha lives in the hall for 10 days. And yet, she broke her word and kept, taking mouli, modak to RK's room and leaving those things there. She then has taunt him to come and join in supper (bhoj) if he has the himmat. She then finally has to challenge, leave your drama and submit yourself to God. If you ask me, that was too much. Madhu was just after RK. Seriously had RK not softer feelings for Madhu and hadn't he wanted himself to get defeated from the farthest corner of his mind and heart, Madhu would never have been to get Ganesha into the house.

Yes, she did not succeed in her goading and she did not bring about the reunion. See above. It was RK himself who was willing to be goaded and had his re-union with his God.

Then why did she feel that her faith would not last if RK died,...because Whatever RK may be...even if a monster, RK was a TRUTHFUL MAN, a man of his word. And a truthful man counts and he means something. A truthful and rightful person like Madhu would never be able to forgive a protector like God for doing something unjust equivalent of betrayal. If RK had surrendered to God and Madhu had expressed her gratitude to HIM and amazed at the magical event, then why the inexplicable events thereafter. Its enough to send even the sanest one to a state of shock...so much that one can easily go into state of disbelief.

See Madhu calls herself as Hauslon se Veer Hoon, Sankaton mein Dheer hoon. That positive thinking and stoic attitude comes only if one is grounded in some beliefs. But if one is rudely shocked, then already the "Dheer" state is lost. So this is a weak Madhu who had taken a pit-stop at the temple to replenish herself with her fuel ...which is faith.

Lord took matters in his own hands, because Madhu played that kind of dangerous game, if you ask me. Everyone has personal relationship with God. But Madhu wanted to be instrumental in taking RK to his reconciliation with God. You think God would let her go scot-free for all this. She ended up in deep-commitment to RK in front of GOD, which RK himself never gave her the right to commit herself to him in marriage.

Its a convoluted story between MAdhu, God and RK and at this stage, Madhu had started it all. Hence her guilt feeling to some extent ...

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Sima14

@Sima14

Navigator

Posted: 12 years ago

#83

Originally posted by: 0-SD-0
Leela,

Re
>>>>So why then did she feel that her faith would not last if RK died?
Was it because she had goaded him into reconciling with his long-estranged friend Ganpati Bappa?😕 But she had not succeeded in her goading. She had not been able to bring about a happy reunion.
It was the Lord Himself who finally took a hand in the matter.

Yes. She knows she was the one goading him into. She told RK, he can live in his room until Ganesha lives in the hall for 10 days. And yet, she broke her word and kept, taking mouli, modak to RK's room and leaving those things there. She then has taunt him to come and join in supper (bhoj) if he has the himmat. She then finally has to challenge, leave your drama and submit yourself to God. If you ask me, that was too much. Madhu was just after RK. Seriously had RK not softer feelings for Madhu and hadn't he wanted himself to get defeated from the farthest corner of his mind and heart, Madhu would never have been to get Ganesha into the house.

Yes, she did not succeed in her goading and she did not bring about the reunion. See above. It was RK himself who was willing to be goaded and had his re-union with his God.

Then why did she feel that her faith would not last if RK died,...because Whatever RK may be...even if a monster, RK was a TRUTHFUL MAN, a man of his word. And a truthful man counts and he means something. A truthful and rightful person like Madhu would never be able to forgive a protector like God for doing something unjust equivalent of betrayal. If RK had surrendered to God and Madhu had expressed her gratitude to HIM and amazed at the magical event, then why the inexplicable events thereafter. Its enough to send even the sanest one to a state of shock...so much that one can easily go into state of disbelief.

See Madhu calls herself as Hauslon se Veer Hoon, Sankaton mein Dheer hoon. That positive thinking and stoic attitude comes only if one is grounded in some beliefs. But if one is rudely shocked, then already the "Dheer" state is lost. So this is a weak Madhu who had taken a pit-stop at the temple to replenish herself with her fuel ...which is faith.

Lord took matters in his own hands, because Madhu played that kind of dangerous game, if you ask me. Everyone has personal relationship with God. But Madhu wanted to be instrumental in taking RK to his reconciliation with God. You think God would let her go scot-free for all this. She ended up in deep-commitment to RK in front of GOD, which RK himself never gave her the right to commit herself to him in marriage.

Its a convoluted story between MAdhu, God and RK and at this stage, Madhu had started it all. Hence her guilt feeling to some extent ...

Wow that was amazing Shri. 👏👏

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leelaa9

@leelaa9

Trailblazer

+ 4

Posted: 12 years ago

#84

Originally posted by: applenpeaches

Thank you ,Thank you, Thank you for writing this.. I wanted to read someone saying this.. This was my feeling right from the moment they married.. It was not always highlighted, but Madhu is her mother's daughter!!! A big hug for saying that.. 🤗

Read only this line...Have to read the rest...

You can read it now, Sonu. I'm finally done.😊

When I picked on the candle icon, I had not thought on having candles at hand in real life.😆 And this is the second time I've added to a post bit by bit, this time as much for fear of the lights conking out as because the piece wasn't quite winding up.😕

And thanks for the enthusiastic response. Nice to know we agree so definitely on the point.😃

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Shridevi Gaddam

@0-SD-0

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#85

Leela,

Now the next part of your post..

>>>>

I wonder what the actual reasoning was for RK's decision to marry Madhu with 100% legality but incomplete rituals, with the marriage promises made only by him and not by her.😕

100% legality is being pragmatic

Rituals are part of ceremonies - coming out of Dogmas and putting them into practice.

He wanted to inflict every possible misery and ridicule to Madhu. Because she is the one who cares about principles. Their war is over their steadfastness to their dogmatic views.

He used COLD LOGIC.

So if marriage is a societal sanction that allows RK to bind himself to be with Madhu on 24x7 tjme, then let it be the chosen mode to bring them together until they settle score with each other. And interesting the 4 -4 -4 equation was already irritating him.

Pls do note...RK had been logical man until he met the illogical Madhu judged from today's pragmatic standards.

And when actually marrying Madhu, he ensured that had to twist every ritual/vow of the marriage.

So he decides to marry her in that drunk-state. And logically he also followed the Beat the Iron when it is hot. He needed to act quick giving not much time for Madhu to slip.

The marriage vows - Vows not to have a constructive relationship, but a destructive relationship.

Here he keeps aside his logical side, and calls up the Truthful side of his. Whatever the priest asks him to repeat, he actually questions himself, if he really wants to that. And being truthful he expresses all the detrimental promises to the woman he is marrying.

When time comes for the woman to pledge her vows, he doesn't allow her. Because if he allows that Madhu will chant the constructive vows unlike him and he doesn't want that to happen.

>>>Was it really to disrespect her, and leave her in doubts about her actual status as his wife? Why then did he always call her "biwi", leaving no one in any doubt just what her relationship to him was? Wife - nothing less.😳

Or was it keep her from settling into his life as a complaisant dutiful wife? To keep boundaries drawn to prevent her drawing closer, and making him vulnerable to yet another relationship when every relationship he has ever had has - deliberately or otherwise - betrayed him?

Or to never completely take all the fight out of his opponent?

Yes.

He calls her Biwi in front of everyone...to give her protection to her and respect for his relationship with Madhubala in front of society of which he knows a lot. Because he does play with Society. If earlier, he maligned Madhubala and her family, this time strategy is changed and now he cares for his Name and Status in society and that protection and respect is needed.

Edited by 0-SD-0 - 12 years ago

Quote

leelaa9

@leelaa9

Trailblazer

+ 4

Posted: 12 years ago

#86

Originally posted by: 0-SD-0
Leela,

Re

>>>>So why then did she feel that her faith would not last if RK died?

Was it because she had goaded him into reconciling with his long-estranged friend Ganpati Bappa?😕 But she had not succeeded in her goading. She had not been able to bring about a happy reunion.

It was the Lord Himself who finally took a hand in the matter.

Yes. She knows she was the one goading him into. She told RK, he can live in his room until Ganesha lives in the hall for 10 days. And yet, she broke her word and kept, taking mouli, modak to RK's room and leaving those things there. She then has taunt him to come and join in supper (bhoj) if he has the himmat. She then finally has to challenge, leave your drama and submit yourself to God. If you ask me, that was too much. Madhu was just after RK. Seriously had RK not softer feelings for Madhu and hadn't he wanted himself to get defeated from the farthest corner of his mind and heart, Madhu would never have been to get Ganesha into the house.

Yes, she did not succeed in her goading and she did not bring about the reunion. See above. It was RK himself who was willing to be goaded and had his re-union with his God.

Then why did she feel that her faith would not last if RK died,...because Whatever RK may be...even if a monster, RK was a TRUTHFUL MAN, a man of his word. And a truthful man counts and he means something. A truthful and rightful person like Madhu would never be able to forgive a protector like God for doing something unjust equivalent of betrayal. If RK had surrendered to God and Madhu had expressed her gratitude to HIM and amazed at the magical event, then why the inexplicable events thereafter. Its enough to send even the sanest one to a state of shock...so much that one can easily go into state of disbelief.

See Madhu calls herself as Hauslon se Veer Hoon, Sankaton mein Dheer hoon. That positive thinking and stoic attitude comes only if one is grounded in some beliefs. But if one is rudely shocked, then already the "Dheer" state is lost. So this is a weak Madhu who had taken a pit-stop at the temple to replenish herself with her fuel ...which is faith.

Lord took matters in his own hands, because Madhu played that kind of dangerous game, if you ask me. Everyone has personal relationship with God. But Madhu wanted to be instrumental in taking RK to his reconciliation with God. You think God would let her go scot-free for all this. She ended up in deep-commitment to RK in front of GOD, which RK himself never gave her the right to commit herself to him in marriage.

Its a convoluted story between MAdhu, God and RK and at this stage, Madhu had started it all. Hence her guilt feeling to some extent ...

Magnificent take, SD.👏

Re. madhu, I almost agree but not quite. She surely felt guilty, definitely, and for the very reasons you have stated so eloquently.

But the feeling of guilt, even more direct and clear, was hers even in the matter of Shamsher's life-threatening injuries.

My point was that guilt was not then enough to shake her faith in the Lord.

It took the primal inexplicable bond between her and RK to drive her into taking the step she would not for her adored foster father - of confronting and threatening the Lord with her own loss of faith.

But your second-last para especially was fabulous.😳

Yes, Madhu's need to be the move and shaker was wrong, and it may be tribute to her genuine goodness of heart that the Lord let the matter develop as it did - with an ending that would be a new beginninng for both the devotees. Madhu had thought to see reemerge the Rishabh who - like her - was an ardent devotee. But she intended no change in herself whatsoever. What she did not intend, the Lord ensured would come to pass. Not the rebirth merrely of one, but of both - albeit in two very different ways.😃

Edited by leelaa9 - 12 years ago

Quote

leelaa9

@leelaa9

Trailblazer

+ 4

Posted: 12 years ago

#87

Originally posted by: 0-SD-0

Leela,

Now the next part of your query ..

>>>>

I wonder what the actual reasoning was for RK's decision to marry Madhu with 100% legality but incomplete rituals, with the marriage promises made only by him and not by her.😕

100% legality is being pragmatic

Rituals are part of ceremonies - coming out of Dogmas and putting them into practice.

He wanted to inflict every possible misery and ridicule to Madhu. Because she is the one who cares about principles. Their war is over their steadfastness to their dogmatic views.

He used COLD LOGIC.

So if marriage is a societal sanction that allows RK to bind himself to be with Madhu on 24x7 tjme, then let it be the chosen mode to bring them together until they settle score with each other. And interesting the 4 -4 -4 equation was already irritating him.

Pls do note...RK had been logical man until he met the illogical Madhu judged from today's pragmatic standards.

And when actually marrying Madhu, he ensured that had to twist every ritual/vow of the marriage.

So he decides to marry her in that drunk-state. And logically he also followed the Beat the Iron when it is hot. He needed to act quick giving not much time for Madhu to slip.

The marriage vows - Vows not to have a constructive relationship, but a destructive relationship.

Here he keeps aside his logical side, and calls up the Truthful side of his. Whatever the priest asks him to repeat, he actually questions himself, if he really wants to that. And being truthful he expresses all the detrimental promises to the woman he is marrying.

When time comes for the woman to pledge her vows, he doesn't allow her. Because if he allows that Madhu will chant the constructive vows unlike him and he doesn't want that to happen.

>>>Was it really to disrespect her, and leave her in doubts about her actual status as his wife? Why then did he always call her "biwi", leaving no one in any doubt just what her relationship to him was? Wife - nothing less.😳

Or was it keep her from settling into his life as a complaisant dutiful wife? To keep boundaries drawn to prevent her drawing closer, and making him vulnerable to yet another relationship when every relationship he has ever had has - deliberately or otherwise - betrayed him?

Or to never completely take all the fight out of his opponent?

Yes.

He calls her Biwi in front of everyone...to give her protection to her and respect for his relationship with Madhubala in front of society of which he knows a lot. Because he does play with Society. If earlier, he maligned Madhubala and her family, this time strategy is changed and now he cares for his Name and Status in society and that protection and respect is needed.

It's not actually queries, SD.

I was just writing as rhetorical questions.

Your every point was immaculate and perfect in examining his thought-process and reasoning.👏

But the man is so complex that I'll be content to stick to my guns as well.😛😆

Considering the kind of whiplash RK gives everyone with his contradictions, no reason he wouldn't be capable of fitting into both of our perceptions.

And even on the points where I don't agree, it's more a POV difference. You make the points so damnably perfectly.⭐️

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Shridevi Gaddam

@0-SD-0

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#88

Leela,

well you keep supplementing your post...so these add-on responses ...character-studies and analysis of dramatic themes . 😛

>>>>What primal hold binds these two - Rishabh and Madhu - together where they increasingly embody "can't live without you" far more than "can't live with you"?

They have increasingly gentled even in their most fraught confrontations.

It is not love that binds them - not yet.

But if there is some kind of primal metaphysical glue that binds two souls together as soulmates, then that must surely be such.

They are right for each other despite not seeming to be. They confound every understanding of what they might be as a whole - because neither is quite what they appear to be.

What binds them together is their self-righteous attitude. I call those 3 ladies and RK idiots. It may sound very strange that I use the word Idiot. There are reasons. 1) in actual conventional sense, their acts are not the so called "Way of the World manners" 2) Very easily you will understand what I mean if anyone had read Dostoevsky's The Idiot. The so-called mentally challenged person is actually the sanest person between all the quick-witted crackpots around him.

These idiots in MB story, apply filters and choose their targets very well. They ignore the crackpots around them as if they are the demons or the ogres not worth mingling and just bond with other idiots like them and towards their idiotic ends choose their targets well.

Hence we have the story title ...JUNOON. Obsess on being an idiot.

Coming to what binds RK and Madhu inspite of the hatred towards each other.

Fight for supremacy of will is what makes them hurt each other.

But trust and understanding of the other's self-righteous attitude makes them get comfortable with each other.

There are standards that their self-righteous attitude asks them to maintain ...they need to match elevated levels as it boosts their esteem. So each knows the game where the other would not fall beneath the conceived standard. So each even though apprehensive of other's action or reaction, yet they have the comfort to know that it not going to be what they do not know of. So a security against Deception. This binds them together. This lets them sleep comfortably in each other's presence.

And what else binds them ? There is no denying at all. They have an awful chemistry around each other. RK may mock about it before MB and making it light, but in reality it very much exists between the two. It is magnetic appeal and pull towards each other that has hit their sub-conscious, which causes them to dream or think about each other. And since the consciousness doesn't allow them to accept this for each other, they turn their thoughts into obsessive ideas to break each other. The subconscious attraction is making them to fixate on each other.

And their story development so far:

Event Accident leads them to meet each other.

They see Mutual Attitude and feel Attraction and very clearly know their worlds are 7 seas apart from each other.

They hurt each other in iterations leading to Event Mock-Marriage.

They continue to witness and confront each other's Attitudes. Through the social sanction of marriage, they effectively kill Attraction for each other but develop bonding as the team of Superstar RK and his Biwi.

They dangerous attack each other aiming their vulnerable selves leading to Event Contract-Marriage

They continue their fight for supremacy and start to live their contract-marriage until one succeeds in hurting the other so much that empathy and respect for the adversary kicks in. And redemption for self-perceived acts starts (RK thinking about Shamsher's quick recovery and Madhu thinking after all this guy is not what I thought him to me)

***Game Ends here*** 15 weeks drama

Next level of story - Unplanned and just pushed into Events beyond Self-Control.

Enter Deepali - Move to Bedroom and declaring to world, they are indeed Biwi and Pati-Dev even if it a contract marriage and not a Holy Matrimony for 7 reincarnations.

Enter Padmini-Radhaji friendship - Madhu blessed by Mother to treat the RK abode as her home and pledge allegiance with her MIL and start plotting around RK

Enter Ganesha -Plotting Mix - Celebrating festival and becoming part of it. Dangerous consequences for either.

Madhu: This marriage is for real.

RK : Don't know what he will do... But he does know Marriage is getting real for his Biwi

Is this going towards Annulling the Contract-Marriage ?

Or Is this going towards turning into a Holi Matrimony ?

*** so far just a 3 week drama ***

Edited by 0-SD-0 - 12 years ago

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Shridevi Gaddam

@0-SD-0

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#89

Originally posted by: applenpeaches
SD, I wasnt talking about Christian and Hindu beliefs when I said that.. 😊I know many Christians too who bargains with God.. What I said was my personal belief.. You dont bargain with God.. His works are mysterious.. He sees things that we cant even begin to understand bcos we are only human.. There is a meaning behind His every action which we as humans cant even understand.. If God doesnt answer one of our prayers, it doesnt mean that He hasnt listened to us and will not take care of us any more... So when I said that I was talking about myself and not about the general Christian community.. Different people approach God in different way, in the way they are most comfortable with..
Did you read what I wrote afterwards? My 'I didnt like it' sentence continued onto the next para..

Peach,

Yeah, I read the other para where you wrote, I still didn't like it and ...at least MB praying for hubby's life and...your ending it with ...Does it sound wierd

So I thought...you are not wierd but then may have a strong reason to feel that way. So I explained our way of analyzing that part of drama using my dogmatic knowledge of what may have seemed wrong for you. Now that my explanation did get a response from you and where you tell me the same possibilities exist in your thinking as well, can you please explain, why you felt wierd about yourself when you said you didn't like it. I am sure some part of Madhu's act did not go well with you inspite of the best reasons available.

You see, I don't delve into Madhu and RK from their heart-angle. I always analyse them from their mental faculties (the impact to their conscious, sub-conscious and unconscious). And I have a feeling that you saw MB's action from Heart point and it was not warming up to what you feel.

But then again MEIEJ is a twisted story of twisted minds and so heart''s sensitivity is not so visible on surface and yet subtleties may take us to sublime levels.

Quote

Shridevi Gaddam

@0-SD-0

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 12 years ago

#90

Originally posted by: leelaa9

It's not actually queries, SD.😕 I was just writing as rhetorical questions.😳

Your every point was immaculate and perfect in examining his thought-process and reasoning.👏

But the man is so complex that I'll be content to stick to my guns as well.😛😆

Considering the kind of whiplash RK gives everyone with his contradictions, no reason he wouldn't be capable of fitting into both of our perceptions.😳

And even on the points where I don't agree, it's more a POV difference. You make the points so damnably perfectly.⭐️

Leela

@ bold.

🤣 🤣

Sorry.😳 But I can explain. Its my Occupational Hazard. 😆 I get queries at my office work and I address them on case by case basis. I know it sounds so ridiculous when that happens.

I could not much read how I started. My mother had called me and she was going awn and awn with her worries and I had to distract myself into something else as well... I just had to ..

And rest, I agree with you. Its the way we are approaching and looking the subject. Different angles. Come Monday, let me see how much of what I am making it to be now, goes to become the actual.

Different Angles is like ...Raja Rao's "The Serpent and The rope" or Plato's views on the Idea and its presentation, or James "Point of View" presentation. Us discussing RK is like me trying to understand Isabel Archer in The Portrait of the Lady. I still don't get it why she was like that. I get it, but I don't gave the satisfaction. So what we do when we don't have satisfaction, we talk, we extend, we imagine 😆

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Episode Discussion: 12th Oct 2012 - Page 9

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