Enigma

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gemini54

@gemini54

Voyager

Posted: 6 years ago

The dictionary defines enigma as

enigma

/inim/

noun

A person or thing that is mysterious, puzzling, or difficult to understand.

Loved the episode today and I thought this one word describes what Uruvi feels for this Man.

By a shot of an arrow the music fills the room, music which speaks to her soul
The shy downcast eyes of the warrior in front of her intrigues her who was he, what moves him. She gets the answer when the rays of the morning sun illuminates and she sees him giving the sandals off his feet to a person who has no shoes, that is the true essence of Karna as depicted in most mythological books and I am glad they showed it here beautifully.
The swayamvar begins she looks longingly at the door wanting a glimpse of the man who intrigues. He walks in and her face lights up she cannot stop smiling, or stop glancing his way. It was such a beautiful scene. The guards were on the way to her getting a good look but then she sees his reflection and is enamoured not before him catching her looking at him so beautifully done by both the actors .
She walks up to him her eyes just only upon him then she notices the smoke bothering him goes around and closes the lid. The nuanced acting by her was very good. How can she let something bother the person who fascinates her.
Then comes the shock he was indulging in something that she never thought he would taking the princess by force she tries to reason with him he falters but his loyalty towards Duryodhana is too strong for he was the friend who pulled him up when he was the lowest and she did mention the word of Arjun and that did it for him.
She was left standing trying to assimilate what happened, how can a person be kind enough to give his shoes off his feet but cruel enough to force a women...he was an enigma

Closing with a quote from Jack London book The sea wolf

At once he became an enigma. One side or the other of his nature was perfectly comprehensible;but both sides together were bewildering.

Thoughts welcome

Edited by gemini54 - 6 years ago

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riti4u

@riti4u

Stunner

+ 7

Posted: 6 years ago

nice post TM. Karn's character was indeed an Enigma.. which many writers and poets find interesting to decipher in their own way...

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

A very charming post, my dear Sabita. And the Jack London quote at the end is a perfect fit for Karna.

One small correction. It is not that Karna was faltering and it was Uruvi's mention of Arjun that riled him, so that he turned away and joined Duryodhana. If you watch that sequence again, you will see that Karna has already turned away from the arrow barrier immediately after Duryodhana calls him.

It is then,as Karna is walking away, that she thinks aloud - for she is surely not addressing Karna at this point of time - that she should not have sent Arjun away. Karna hears her murmur, stops in his tracks, and turns around to needle her about his superiority to Arjun.

But Karna is not, as is often said here, grey. He is doomed. He literally has no choice but to support Duryodhana, not only because of gratitude, but also because of that ironclad oath. As I noted in a response to Gargi, the wording of that oath is so tight that there is NO loophole at all. When I was a diplomat, I would have been proud to have drafted such a watertight agreement!

However, as I have noted on another thread, he should have been shown struggling with internal turmoil last night. There was nothing of that. He supports Duryodhana without a second thought. And his face is unmoved and expressionless throughout.

Footnote: Enigma was also the name of the cryptographic machine used by the British during World War II to decode German secret telegrams.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: gemini54
The dictionary defines enigma as
enigma
/inim/
noun
A person or thing that is mysterious, puzzling, or difficult to understand.

Loved the episode today and I thought this one word describes what Uruvi feels for this Man.
By a shot of an arrow the music fills the room, music which speaks to her soul
The shy downcast eyes of the warrior in front of her intrigues her who was he, what moves him. She gets the answer when the rays of the morning sun illuminates and she sees him giving the sandals off his feet to a person who has no shoes, that is the true essence of Karna as depicted in most mythological books and I am glad they showed it here beautifully.
The swayamvar begins she looks longingly at the door wanting a glimpse of the man who intrigues. He walks in and her face lights up she cannot stop smiling, or stop glancing his way. It was such a beautiful scene. The guards were on the way to her getting a good look but then she sees his reflection and is enamoured not before him catching her looking at him so beautifully done by both the actors .
She walks up to him her eyes just only upon him then she notices the smoke bothering him goes around and closes the lid. The nuanced acting by her was very good. How can she let something bother the person who fascinates her.
Then comes the shock he was indulging in something that she never thought he would taking the princess by force she tries to reason with him he falters but his loyalty towards Duryodhana is too strong for he was the friend who pulled him up when he was the lowest and she did mention the word of Arjun and that did it for him.
She was left standing trying to assimilate what happened, how can a person be kind enough to give his shoes off his feet but cruel enough to force a women...he was an enigma
Closing with a quote from Jack London book The sea wolf

At once he became an enigma. One side or the other of his nature was perfectly comprehensible;but both sides together were bewildering.

Thoughts welcome

Edited by sashashyam - 6 years ago

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Antara123

@Antara123

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

TM, I truly believe Karn is an enigma after yesterday's episode.

I wanna see what happens today and then actually comment on what happened. My judgement would finally depend on Bhanumati's reaction as I mentioned earlier.

Aunty, I'd like to disagree with you on this point. XD I agree forceful abduction of a woman is wrong. It sets a wrong precedent, a wrong example. Against the freedom and rights of a woman. However, when Bheeshm did the same thing years ago(going by popular version, there could be some versions where this thing never takes place, I don't wanna argue with those who know it better than me and invite wrath. Lol.), It set a wrong precedent for posterity.

My post is just a justification of what happened and also because i don't think absolute right and wrong exist.

And Karn is still grey according to me. And the oath thing was wrong according to me. If they'd never showed the oath, then Karn's actions could have easily been termed as his choice.

But now the makers have found a free justification for Karn through that stupid blood oath.

Karn's choice makes him grey. Now, he did because he was helpless or because he was loyal to his friend or because he believed his friend genuinely loved that princess is something they didn't show. I am glad they didn't show the inner turmoil. Coz that'll end up justifying and whitewashing Karn anyway.

The disturbed look when Duryodhan first held her hand was enough to show the turmoil according to me. Here, Karn isn't shown to have some deep-rooted moral conscience. And that's how people are. We aren't good or right at all times. People are genuinely kind sometimes and then end up supporting the wrong side too. And that's what makes us grey and Karn grey too. He's probably doomed. But he isn't anticipating Duryodhan to indulge in major adharm simply based on one pathetically wrong incident that he resorts to. This could be attributed to everything is fair in love and war. Yeah, I am not supporting use of force. Not one bit. But this is easily what Karn can believe. Considering Duryodhan confided in him that he is in love with her and stuff.

This showed Karn's hypocrisy, and I'd rather see this as hypocrisy than as his helplessness.

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

My dear Najma,

You are clearly a metaphysician manquee! 😉

But yes, of course the precedent set by Bhishma was a wrong and dangerous one. Did I not point that out somewhere else, I think it was in the Conscience Keeper thread?

My simpler, non-metaphysical point of view is that grabbing a woman - even such an obnoxious, insufferable woman - against her will is a crime. Period. None of the explanations/ justifications that Karna might dream up to support his adharma will wash for me.

Nor will it suffice that Bhanumati makes the best of a bad job and agrees to marry Duryodhana. I had explained why, but it seems that did not carry conviction with you.

This is the beginning of the slippery slide for Karna. At many points in the actual epic, as during the Laakshagrih arson, he could have tried to use his influence to curb Duryodhana's worst instincts. He never does.

Finally, I could see nothing on his face when Duryodhana grabs Bhanumati. Neither then nor afterwards till their departure. He seems to me to be uni-expressional. Clearly I need a visual aid, or else it is that folks here see things that don't exist because they want them to be there, Which may not be a bad thing for staying happy with this Karna.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: najma123
TM, I truly believe Karn is an enigma after yesterday's episode.
I wanna see what happens today and then actually comment on what happened. My judgement would finally depend on Bhanumati's reaction as I mentioned earlier.

Aunty, I'd like to disagree with you on this point. XD I agree forceful abduction of a woman is wrong. It sets a wrong precedent, a wrong example. Against the freedom and rights of a woman. However, when Bheeshm did the same thing years ago(going by popular version, there could be some versions where this thing never takes place, I don't wanna argue with those who know it better than me and invite wrath. Lol.), It set a wrong precedent for posterity.
My post is just a justification of what happened and also because i don't think absolute right and wrong exist.
And Karn is still grey according to me. And the oath thing was wrong according to me. If they'd never showed the oath, then Karn's actions could have easily been termed as his choice.
But now the makers have found a free justification for Karn through that stupid blood oath.
Karn's choice makes him grey. Now, he did because he was helpless or because he was loyal to his friend or because he believed his friend genuinely loved that princess is something they didn't show. I am glad they didn't show the inner turmoil. Coz that'll end up justifying and whitewashing Karn anyway.
The disturbed look when Duryodhan first held her hand was enough to show the turmoil according to me. Here, Karn isn't shown to have some deep-rooted moral conscience. And that's how people are. We aren't good or right at all times. People are genuinely kind sometimes and then end up supporting the wrong side too. And that's what makes us grey and Karn grey too. He's probably doomed. But he isn't anticipating Duryodhan to indulge in major adharm simply based on one pathetically wrong incident that he resorts to. This could be attributed to everything is fair in love and war. Yeah, I am not supporting use of force. Not one bit. But this is easily what Karn can believe. Considering Duryodhan confided in him that he is in love with her and stuff.
This showed Karn's hypocrisy, and I'd rather see this as hypocrisy than as his helplessness.

Edited by sashashyam - 6 years ago

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gemini54

@gemini54

Voyager

Posted: 6 years ago

Thanks for the compliment aunty coming from you means a lot.
You are right Karna does turn back.
I wonder why he did not have a twinge of conscience like you put it not supporting his actions but being an outcast all your life can stop you from having these fiber tuning to emotions.
All he sees are black and white. He was insulted at the arena Duryodhana called him friend and saved him maybe the first time someone stood for him. Duryodhana wants thebgirl so he is going to help him.
Even his interaiwith uruvi so far has been clinical. The real test is Love for her versus Loyalty for his friend . Even though we say love conquers all and me being a romantic believes it in this case maybe it doesn't.
Loved the titbit on the Russian machine.

Originally posted by: sashashyam

A very charming post, my dear Sabita. And the Jack London quote at the end is a perfect fit for Karna.

One small correction. It is not that Karna was faltering and it was Uruvi's mention of Arjun that riled him, so that he turned away and joined Duryodhana. If you watch that sequence again, you will see that Karna has already turned away from the arrow barrier immediately after Duryodhana calls him.

It is then,as Karna is walking away, that she thinks aloud - for she is surely not addressing Karna at this point of time - that she should not have sent Arjun away. Karna hears her murmur, stops in his tracks, and turns around to needle her about his superiority to Arjun.

But Karna is not, as is often said here, grey. He is doomed. He literally has no choice but to support Duryodhana, not only because of gratitude, but also because of that ironclad oath. As I noted in a response to Gargi, the wording of that oath is so tight that there is NO loophole at all. When I was a diplomat, I would have been proud to have drafted such a watertight agreement!

However, as I have noted on another thread, he should have been shown struggling with internal turmoil last night. There was nothing of that. He supports Duryodhana without a second thought. And his face is unmoved and expressionless throughout.

Footnote: Enigma was also the name of the cryptographic machine used by the British during World War II to decode German secret telegrams.

Shyamala Aunty

Edited by gemini54 - 6 years ago

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cts22

@cts22

Navigator

+ 2

Posted: 6 years ago

There are a lot of instances in the epic and I hope in this show as well where Karna could have easily influenced Duryodhana but he chose not too.

Karna was not helpless, he was very clear that his allegiance and loyalty is to Duryodhana.

I loved the portrayal in the show where there is an extreme inherent goodness, nobility, disregard to material possessions on one hand and on the other his unflinching loyalty towards his friend which makes him commit a lot of misdeeds and which does willingly.

Karna is a very grey character and the show is showing that side to him.

It will be interesting to see him in conflict when it comes between his love and loyalty, and though we know what he chooses, the angst and his conflict of emotions will be interesting to watch

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gemini54

@gemini54

Voyager

Posted: 6 years ago

Thanks to all of you who liked and replied to my post

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

I like your posts a lot. They are crisp and convincing..

Oddly enough, wrt the part in bold italics, I had made the same point in my response earller on this page to Najma. I had cited only the Laakshagrih instance, but as you have noted, there are many such. But I somehow doubt if they will go the full length in depicting his moral vaccuum, which is what it was as the tale proceeded.

As for the second part in bold italics, it is all a question of whether our hero can tackle this angst and bring it out fully. In any show, at times, the poor actor tries his best, but it fails to show on his face. Till now, with this Karna, I am disappointed by his uni-expression stance, which is explained away by those who are fond of him as deliberate stoicism.

Shyamala Aunty (?)

Originally posted by: cts22
There are a lot of instances in the epic and I hope in this show as well where Karna could have easily influenced Duryodhana but he chose not too.

Karna was not helpless, he was very clear that his allegiance and loyalty is to Duryodhana.
I loved the portrayal in the show where there is an extreme inherent goodness, nobility, disregard to material possessions on one hand and on the other his unflinching loyalty towards his friend which makes him commit a lot of misdeeds and which does willingly.

Karna is a very grey character and the show is showing that side to him.

It will be interesting to see him in conflict when it comes between his love and loyalty, and though we know what he chooses, the angst and his conflict of emotions will be interesting to watch

Edited by sashashyam - 6 years ago

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Antara123

@Antara123

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

#10

Originally posted by: sashashyam
My dear Najma,

You are clearly a metaphysician manquee! 😉

Aunty, I am not sure if that is appreciation or criticism. But thanks nonetheless. 😆😆 On a serious note, I am really sorry for such a late reply. Did you comment on yesterday's episode somewhere? No one really has commented on it. I made a post in the thread called Take on Episode 8. Do check it out, I'd love to hear your comments. 😉

But yes, of course the precedent set by Bhishma was a wrong and dangerous one. Did I not point that out somewhere else, I think it was in the Conscience Keeper thread?

I think I missed this post, but nevertheless, true.
My simpler, non-metaphysical point of view is that grabbing a woman - even such an obnoxious, insufferable woman - against her will is a crime. Period. None of the explanations/ justifications that Karna might dream up to support his adharma will wash for me.

True, but life isn't all that black and white is what I feel. Looking at it objectively, even I would agree with you. But I am not looking at it, that objectively.

Nor will it suffice that Bhanumati makes the best of a bad job and agrees to marry Duryodhana. I had explained why, but it seems that did not carry conviction with you.

See, the only thing that can salvage the situation is if she accedes to marrying him (w.r.t only Episode 7, not the last two episodes.) If she does, then her maan sammaan and whatever is not compromised, and therefore it may not seem wrong. And when it does not seem wrong, I wouldn't hold Karn guilty. It is just that I am just more biased towards Karn and Duryodhan, and therefore I am giving concessions. 😆
This is the beginning of the slippery slide for Karna. At many points in the actual epic, as during the Laakshagrih arson, he could have tried to use his influence to curb Duryodhana's worst instincts. He never does.
I am not sure which way this story is going to swing. I think they should have promoted Duryodhan in the promos as well as in the show launch, coz he seems way more important than Arjun to me, as on date. Even later, when Urvi chooses Karn over Arjun, Duryodhan is going to be of greater significance. Sorry for digressing, every show depicts a different Duryodhan-Karn relationship. The old MB I think portrayed a relatively dimwitted Duryodhan (At least that is what I perceived) but honest and sincere in his friendship. In the past week, I have checked out two different shows portraying these equations, to get a better picture. One showed Duryodhan using Karn explicitly, the other showed a sincere friendship but where Duryodhan does passive bullying. 😆
So, idk what the actual critical edition Mahabharat states and all, but let us wait before we comment on how Karn influences Duryodhan. Since this is a fictional tale, we could see something different that could partly redeem Karn, if not Duryodhan. 😉

Finally, I could see nothing on his face when Duryodhana grabs Bhanumati. Neither then nor afterwards till their departure. He seems to me to be uni-expressional. Clearly I need a visual aid, or else it is that folks here see things that don't exist because they want them to be there, Which may not be a bad thing for staying happy with this Karna.

No, I think he was expressive. Wasn't he like part disgusted? 😆 Or my fondness for Aashim Gulati's Karn is making me love his lack of acting too. 😆

Shyamala Aunty

Yo, Aunty. My replies are in Bold. I will keep saying this. This Forum still has very few people. And you are one of the few to appreciate the romance, the chemistry and indulge in part fangirling and as well as critically analyse each character. Thanks for making this KS journey more interesting for me. 😳

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