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Originally posted by: lashy

I haven't read p&p either though I know almost all characters and how the story ends... so I also had two choices - IM and AMK at Aidabad! 😔

Originally posted by: lashy

Originally posted by: lashy

@ Periyamma, Lana, Sandy, Lavanya and others...

Do you know? In some of the earlier threads, where AMK was 'dark', he was often compared to Karna. The good side of it, that is...

If we had to compare AMK to one of the Pandavas, it'd be Arjun, I'd say. The archery-skills, pride and yet humility towards those that mattered to him.. and of course, the fact he was most handsome. Still I find AMK's character more multidimensional than was Arjun... but that's just my personal opinion... 😳

None in Mahabharat is comparable to AMK. Only Purushottam in Ramayan.😎

AMK did not posess Arjun's one weakness - pride. Agreed, it was proper pride, he was skilled and important enough, but unlike Darcy, he never bothered to correct it.

Periyamma - The four-some, Dhuriyodhan, Shakuni, Duschasan, and Karna are known as Dhusta Chathushtais in Mahabharat. Likewise.. are the Dushta Chatushtais Shehzaade, Farooq, Khalil and Mahendar in HBAS.

It was Karna who ordered the disrobing of Draupati in the gambling hall.

When Vikarna puts forward his arguments against bringing Draupati to the court, Karna says," When the elders are seated here with their mouths shut, how could you open your mouth and utter such words..? It is not the custom for the slaves to wear clothes on their torsos.. And this woman is not chaste...She had relationship with five husbands.. Hey Sevak... remove all the upper garments from the five slaves and disrobe this woman.."

[ Ref: "Panchali Sabatham "( Panjali's vow) by Poet Bharatiyar]

Though Karna didn't belong to the Kaurava clan, he was treated as one of the evil doers here in this scene..

Did not Mahender do a similar thing when Heera was questioned by the Ranisa in Bhansi? In Heera's words, it was..

'In the end, my character was maligned... I was dragged to the Sabha... humiliated... in front of many... ironically, it was HIS character - his actions and eyes... that weren't honourable all along...'

I picked MB Karna for Mahendar, mainly for his looks. Mahendar is also young and handsome, his evil -inside is not shown to others, even to his parents..We trusted him till chapter 11..!

I didn't. 😈😆

You have really enlightened me on some things, here! Periyamma... 👏

And I think whatever the justifications we might mete at the end, if one chooses to do bad only to please the company he keeps, I cannot see him in good light.

I know there's lots of documentaries, serials, even Sivaji Ganesan's movie that show him in a very honourable light... but, that should not gloss over what he truly did/how he acted out at the end...

By comparison there are so many who've suffered worse in life and committed none of the crimes he did... similarly, if we go into such depth trying to understand his past, Shakuni also has a very long back-story... mustn't we provide the same leniency to him too?

What he considers an insult by Bhishma's requesting his sister for a blind man? For the jailing of the brothers and starving them is an add on story like Uttar Ramayan and not a part of Ved Vyas original. Even considering it true, the Gandhar clan was ruling atrociously after which Bhishma captured them all. So what was done unto him and his family was a result of some action of theirs.

But for Karna, he had done nothing to deserve what was dealt to him. Yes, many are treated worse but if it was a person or a system who offended them, and they had the ability to pay back, very few would be Sadhu enough not to avenge.

And Recognition for someone skilled is like the air they breathe. They feel suffocated without it. Remember Kamal in Salangai Oli...he was deprived of it, not by any person or system, but by fate. And his joy and tears when he hears claps for the first time...Karna got carried away by the recognition given by Duryodhan, for the first time in his life. He did accompany him through his crimes, but eventually grew out of it. That doesn't absolve him of his co-crimes. Nothing can ever. He desreves censure for all that he did. Nothing can wipe the horrors of cruelty by Ashoka though he became Chakravartin Priyadarshi later on. But the point is that they changed.

Karna could have agreed to Krishna's proposal, ditched Duryodhan and switched sides and defeated him and being the elder Kunti-putra become king himself. And had Arjun under his thumb. He knew who Krishna was and how the war would end...still he chose to remain on the losing side, out of loyalty and wanting to atone for his sins.

The gandharva episode Lana, Gandharvas were swarg dwellers who visited the earth for various reasons. And had magical powers. They could befuddle others and Karna fled to fetch his weapons when the attack took place (as they were partying when the attack took place) hoping Duryodhan would fend himself till then. But he couldn't. He who didn't ditch Duryodhana even against his brothers in war, wouldn't do so agsinst an army of Gandharvas.

Aunty, I completely agree that Karna was never the "Sadhu'' among the "Shaitan' and not only the disrobing of Draupadi he instigated aunty, but all throughout Mahabharata if Duryodhan and Shakuni were to be blamed then Karna was equally to be blamed for adding fuel to fire to make Duryodhan burn in jealousy.

I can go on and on aunty about his several drawbacks that he had and ask people when they praise Karna!

I agree with this... 👍🏼

But when it comes to comparing Mahendra and Karna I will draw a line because there are some aspects of nobility still left in Karna which Mahendra lacks.

There are three, Lana... not more... Karna was a philanthropist, which Mahendar will only be to HIS OWN! Karna was loyal to his friend. Mahendar is loyal to none but himself. Karna is not as sly as Mahendar...

The rest, I am not so sure about.. you have given me a lot of food for thought, actually!🤔

Karna other than being in Duryodhan's company, never lusted after the opposite sex like Mahendra does.

Well... I agree that he was not a pervert. But then, that doesn't redeem Karna from the reality that he chose to treat Draupadi like he did when he did. I know Sandy has a soft spot for Karna - but today, if a boy from school chose to payback a girl who laughed at his poverty by cheering on her attackers while they assaulted her modesty, would we ever forgive him?

NEVER. Karna was horribly wrong there. All of their action is unpalatable and more so from today's pov. But

ALL of the men there deserved the electric chair for what they did to her. Right from Yudhishtir who gambled her, to his brothers to whom the brother's decision mattered more than a girl's homour, Bhishma, to whom his pratigya was more important than a woman's honour, to everyone else to whom their affiliation to the state mattered more than a woman's honour, Drithrashtra who was the king and who allowed such a crime, Karna too to whom his insult mattered more than a woman's honour and being an active participant in the disgrace too.

Another grave error he made was competing with Arjun instead of excellence, like Lana said, that turned him blind to right/wrong.

Mahendra went to shake hands with the devil himself to get what he wanted against his beloved.

Karna all said and done was definitely much more capable and valiant and noble compared to the sneaky, underhanded, slimy Mahendra!

I can compare Mahendra to Ashwathama, because Ashwathama also underhandedly came to the Pandava camp to kill all the sons of Draupadi thinking they are the Pandavas!

In this same vein then, Karna being a part of Abhimanyu-killing camp (and what he did afterwards) makes him as underhanded as Mahendar... don't you think? Yes he didn't kill the rest of the sons, but he did surround and kill the most important one by unfair means!😕

And as for Abhimanyu vadh, the boy was already inthe vyuh and Karna by then knew that he was his nephew. With others making fun of him and killing him turns, Karna puts an end to the madness by driving the final sword plunge.

He does not kill any of the Pandavas in accordance with the promise given to Kunti though he overpowers all the other 4 in the battle, he lets them go.

Nevertheless, this is what is the beauty of characters that are multidimensional... and we can go on and on discussing about them!👏

Safely put, my personal opinion is that Shakuni, Duryodhan, Dushaasan, Karna, Mahendar, Shehzaade, are ALL not just antagonists, but villains - that take a stance AGAINST the protagonists of the story by their OWN aggressive choices.

Yes, some are fully black (Dushaasan/Khalil). And others have back-stories and a few redeeming qualities that make them somewhat grey.

But, ALL of them possess several negative traits. More importantly, these villains choose to ACT on these negative traits at some point or another - and that's one thing that the protagonists of both stories would NEVER do even if the opportunity ever arose!

Isn't gambling away your kingdom, your brothers and a woman who was not exclusively your wife an equally negative trait. If Yudhistra, the epitome of Dharma, born with a silver spoon get carried away by the intoxication of gambling, i find it somewhat equally human ( rather inhuman) that Karna too got carried away by the intoxication of unfair revenge.

Arjun would never kill Karna's son or treat his wife in a tit-for-tat fashion, nor would AMK ever treat Shehzaade the way he's being treated now, or so much a raise his eyes at Khalil's wife, if he were to ever meet her!😊

Had Karna stood for right inspite of whatever was dealt by destiny, by the people and by the system he would have either vanished without trace as an also lived, or would have fallen in the league of Purushottam, AMK and the like.

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Well... whichever way that argument goes... 🤔 I can say this - had Mahendar had the opportunity, and Heera been in Draupadi's place... Mahendar wouldn't have cheered anyone on (friend or enemy) in a public physical disrobing of a woman. Not because he's a noble soul. But because he'd consider it 'uncouth' 'too barbaric for his taste' 'too indecent' or simply because 'his own pride would have hurt since she was a Rajput woman' ... No... not even to a Muslim woman, whom he'd otherwise hate, would he have done what Karna did...

Yes, he teased Heera that she was dressed like a maid at the Sabha and humiliated her name and character! But that is the sort of villain in him... he does draw his lines in this aspect... (like when he was disgusted on noticing a 9 year old Mughal slave girl serving him in Khalil's house, even though he wishes them all dead)

i wonder what he would have done had he accompanied Khalil in disguise when he attacked Parnagarh. Would he have allowed Khalil to carry on or would he have exposed himself and saved Durga? Sacrifice his name and prestiege to save her honour!🤔

Originally posted by: lashy

At a time when no one knew no one...

He would have avoided having to kill her at all costs because she is -

a) a woman

b) a noblewoman

c) as intelligence officer, he knows the death of a Hindu noblewoman would have created more problems for his Huzoor. And it did.

His methods took time but were extremely efficient in getting Shehzaade hold of the Farmaan.

Yet, if the Shehzaade had given the same orders to Ustaad that he'd given to Khalil

'Do what you have to, but get the Farmaan ASAP',

he would've tried to strike deals. given her an hour or two to think about it. Had his men do a thorough search of the place in the meanwhile. If that didn't work, he would have had to capture her alive to take to the Shehzaade and let his master deal with the noblewoman.

In the worst case scenario, if she put on a very brave face, escaped from captivity and tried to kill his men/him, refused to give up the Farmaan etc... then he would have let her have a valiant death in self-defence.

No, he would have NEVER allowed Khalil to do what he did to Durga.

And of course, Khalil himself would have never dared to do any such thing had his Ustaad been there!

^^^ That is how it'd have panned out, had AMK been there with Khalil/instead of Khalil!

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Nooo...not AMK. I KNOW AMK would never have let Khalil take away Durga's honour. Farman, yes. Life, may be. But honour NEVER. My q was What if the swine had accompanied the brute? Would he have saved his sweetheart knowing that it might expose his underhand agreement with Khalil?