Meandering Musings on Mughal Relations - Page 18

@ Radhika and Abhay

Originally posted by: lasyap3

<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Regarding stereotypes...I put forth my views with the help of two quotes--😊</font>

<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"><font color="#990099">"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a b**ch."</font>
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<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Wherever you find a great man, you will find a great mother or a great wife standing behind him -- or so they used to say. It would be interesting to know how many great women have had great fathers and husbands behind them.😕
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<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font color="#181818" size="2">The below is an occurrence which once happened in a female writer's life--</font></font>

<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font color="#cc0000" size="2">"A man once asked me ... how I managed in my books to write such natural conversation between men when they were by themselves. Was I, by any chance, a member of a large, mixed family with a lot of male friends? I replied that, on the contrary, I was an only child and had practically never seen or spoken to any men of my own age till I was about twenty-five. "Well," said the man, "I shouldn't have expected a woman (meaning me) to have been able to make it so convincing." I replied that I had coped with this difficult problem by making my men talk, as far as possible, like ordinary human beings. This aspect of the matter seemed to surprise the other speaker; he said no more, but took it away to chew it over. One of these days it may quite likely occur to him that women, as well as men, when left to themselves, talk very much like human beings also."</font></font>

<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">She further says that --</font>

<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2" color="#ff0099">"In reaction against the age-old slogan, "woman is the weaker vessel," or the still more offensive, "woman is a divine creature," we have, I think, allowed ourselves to drift into asserting that "a woman is as good as a man," without always pausing to think what exactly we mean by that. What, I feel, we ought to mean is something so obvious that it is apt to escape attention altogether, viz: (...) that a woman is just as much an ordinary human being as a man, with the same individual preferences, and with just as much right to the tastes and preferences of an individual. What is repugnant to every human being is to be reckoned always as a member of a class and not as an individual person."</font>

<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"><font color="#181818">Iwouldjust like to say one thing...</font></font>

<font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"><font color="#181818">At the end of the day,</font></font>how much ever might have the rules and the notions must have been interpreted wrong by the people,the stereotyping still EXISTS.Perhaps being educated, some people do believe that women must have an equal status with men in ALL aspects,but I don't see that the words being in IMPLEMENTATION.

There are still the if's and but's,though we claim ourselves to be MODERN and put forth the arguement that all are equal,it is pathetic that NOBODY is able to put that into practice...(I don't deny that some are there who give FREEDOM...but for me the change must be brought in a broader sense...)

One must not forget that women are nowhere less than men in any aspect...In JA show, Jalal once admits that he had never seen a strong woman like Jodha, who has the strength to take forward,both the Mughal and Rajvanshi tehzeeb on her shoulder...I bet that it would not be a cakewalk for men in that position😉

On a final note my message would be--

Instead of being presented with stereotypes by age, sex, color, class, or religion, people must try to know that within each range, some people are loathsome and some are delightful.

Brilliantly written... 👏
This attitude has been there for ages, especially in our country...

U take up history or mythology...this equality in terms of social norms has never been practised...

I remember an episode of Jodha Akbar, where Jodha tells Jalal that a King can marry several times but if a Queen even behaves inappropriately with another man, she is judged, punished, abused n wat not...
A strong, bold woman is often seen with contempt n the greatest example of that is in one of our greatest epics...where such a women is molested in public n then blamed later for causing war...
We often speak of equality but rarely it is practised... People want to see tamed bahus than strong Queens...

Women are always sterotyped into the goody goody bahus bcoz that is how majority people want to see her
I guess that is y, a majestic woman like Jodha has been reduced to a wife n mother...
I am sure she was great at both the roles but her power as the Queen has been suppressed to suit the mindset of the audience.

Originally posted by: amritat

Brilliantly written... 👏
This attitude has been there for ages, especially in our country...

U take up history or mythology...this equality in terms of social norms has never been practised...

I remember an episode of Jodha Akbar, where Jodha tells Jalal that a King can marry several times but if a Queen even behaves inappropriately with another man, she is judged, punished, abused n wat not...
A strong, bold woman is often seen with contempt n the greatest example of that is in one of our greatest epics...where such a women is molested in public n then blamed later for causing war...
We often speak of equality but rarely it is practised... People want to see tamed bahus than strong Queens...

Women are always sterotyped into the goody goody bahus bcoz that is how majority people want to see her
I guess that is y, a majestic woman like Jodha has been reduced to a wife n mother...
I am sure she was great at both the roles but her power as the Queen has been suppressed to suit the mindset of the audience.

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Hi Purani

Thanks! 😊

It's a mystery why Ruqaiyya should try to control Salim through drugs for the sake of power when, like you rightly pointed out, she has all the power already - she can ask for anything and Jalal will give it to her. She doesn't need to fall to such depths to asure her place in future also because she is Salim's stepmother and Salim will naturally take care of her whom he lovingly calls badi ammi.

The only reason seems to be increasing the importance of the character of Ruqaiyya as a vamp. I agree the show is now all about Ruqaiyya with very little of Jodha Akbar. Making it worse are the tracks that seem to be vying for the Guinness Book of World Records in terms of being the most despicable fiction shown on TV ever. 😕

Very beautifully interpreted.. Radhika 👍🏼

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Abhay,

You have presented a balanced view and I understand what you intend to say here.👏

I wish to add to what you have said. :)

The male is the protector of the female is a stereotype when it is blindly applied to every woman, whether it is Bakshi or MUZ, without taking their individuality into account. This is my objection. I don't believe women then and now are different. Women, then or now, are all individuals. Some are abla and some sabla, some somewhere in between.

Apart from the Mirchi war, we also saw that Jodha was a trained warrior and she once fought armed attackers along with Jalal quite ably.

I strongly object to her being shown as requiring the protection of her young son if her husband is not with her. In my view, this is stereotyping at its worst. If we had to be shown Salim's bravery, JJ could have enacted the drama together. This would have NOT gone against the established character of Jodha in the show.

I also want Jalal and Jodha to elucidate on Jodha's skills too along with Jalal's to Salim. Salim should KNOW he is the son of a strong warrior mother, not a run-of-the-mill abla nari mother.

Regarding Bakshi, she is a weak woman who is afraid that her husband will leave her if she opposes him. I understand such women exist too, then or now. I would ideally like her to stand up to her husband, esp as her brother is the emperor. But I can understand that she would rather remain married than stay as an abandoned wife in the protection of her brother. Esp in those days, this was NOT a desirable option for many women.

Are men stereotyped? Can a woman leave her husband in times of crisis? Yes to both questions.

We have seen Ruq leave Jalal to his own devices pretty much most of the times he faced an emotional crisis.

Jalal's stereotyped character - I really don't want to repeat this again. You know my views about this, since I made many posts in the past about his swinging personality. He loves Jodha to distraction, then MUs her over something and throws her out of his life without a second thought, then discovers the truth, repents, and promises everlasting love and declares he cannot live without her. How many tracks have followed this beaten path? LOL

PS: I am sorry. This stereotype has been updated. Now Jalal doesn't repent. Or apologize. 😕

Again going back to Jodha aka MUZ.

I do not know history as well as you. But I do understand that an MUZ should be more powerful than ALL other queens, be on a higher pedestal, so to say. But here, Jodha's stereotype, as the tamed shrew, the domesticated wife and mother, is so complete that it is HARD to believe she is the MUZ.

She has no regal bearing in terms of her clothes or body language. This is vastly different from the time Jodha was newly married. Now she is shown to dress and think and behave like a common woman.

She has no sense of justice. Ruq fired Rashid and the MUZ just accepted it calmly??? Is this the same woman who opposed Jalal to even free Khyber from death? Who stood by Moti and Tasneem? Who fought for jaziya to be removed only recently?

She has no sense of mothering. She is not able to fill her son with confidence? She is not able to train Salim, as she was trained in her childhood? Has she forgotten everything she learned in Amer under Sujamal?

She does not know how to correct her son. He messed up big time by shooting a boy accidentally, then hiding his role and lying to cover up his tracks.

I don't blame Salim at all. I am questioning Jodha here. She is the mother. Yet her ONLY son (as per the show) does not have enough faith in his mother to tell her the truth??? Every mother, no matter how dumb, is able to establish a relationship of trust with her kids so that kids always go to their mother when in trouble, even if they are afraid of their father.

But Salim does not have that faith in Jodha. In fact, it seems he has more faith in Ruq than Jodha. For he constantly seems to be going to Ruq more than Jodha.

Even after she finds out, she is not able to reassure her son that she would support him always but he has to face the consequences of his actions this time. She is not able to explain to him where he went wrong and how he should have come to her and told her everything. She is not able to explain to him that Jalal may punish him as a king as he has to, but as parents, they would continue to love him always.

Next in line is Jalal. It is good that he is trying to use innovative methods to train his son as a prince of the court. But he has to remember to teach him as a son too. Why should his son be so afraid of him that he cannot even tell the truth in front of him?

It is fine that Jalal keeps his kingship above everything. But he must also remember that he is punishing a small child who didn't hurt the other boy deliberately. He should be able to explain what wrong Salim did and why he is being punished. (Personally I feel his punishment should have been less strict. But I don't know how kids and others were punished those days.)

Just shouting at a child and punishing him will not serve any purpose. Punishment serves its purpose if the punished person understands his mistake and repents enough to not repeat that mistake in future. It should not be done only to redress the grievance of the victim's family but also to reform the person who has committed a serious mistake.

Jalal does not even know how to behave with an adult, leave alone a child. Now he remembers that Jodha is the MUZ???

Has he ever given her any powers or responsibilities commensurate with that title?

He let the MUZ apologize to Ruq for something that was not her fault?

He has not told the MUZ that she can overrule Ruq if Ruq takes wrong decisions. If he can ask Salim to question Ruq, he can ask the MUZ also to question Ruq when she goes wrong.

If we stick to just the present instance too, did he ask her as the MUZ what her decision in the case was? If she has no say in deciding the fate of Salim as his mother or the MUZ, then why remind her to think like an MUZ??

MUZ has become just a beautiful sounding title like Malika-e-Mughal Sultanat. It is just an empty title in this show, with no weight behind it.

I don't watch other shows either. And they are not important. Stereotypes are anyway not restricted to shows but occur as leitmotifs in popular culture and our society. In our show, all characters are stereotyped. The irony is that many characters had greater depth and a wider range of personality traits last year. But post leap, all the characters seem to have become flat, regressive stereotypes -- mere shadows, may be not even that of their former selves.

Originally posted by: history_geek

Aashrita, Agree with you. And, @bold..That is something for which many people poured in their efforts on a war footing with that CV on Twitter, and finally made him understand that Salima Begum was childless. ;p

Please keep posting. Your views are refreshing. :D

Some very interesting posts could be seen on this thread, posted o'er last few hours.
Need to read all of them again later, in order to reply..
Till then, plz carry on the discussions.. :D

@Aashrita...
The link of the blog is present with the CV already. (as per what has been told to me).

BTW, In today's episode, Padshah Begum title was used for Ruqayya.
I am sure he going to get fired for this. ;p