Meandering Musings on Mughal Relations - Page 17

Originally posted by: history_geek

Last night's episode was quite good it seems. I have not seen it.
Only heard that Jalal administered Justice and kept his theory of kingship above all. :)

I am missing out, on the details of episode. Can someone elaborate.?.


PS : I also want to share LOT of historical anecdotes but not doing so keeping in mind the forum rule based on historical discussions. I hope we remember that rule and the consequences for this thread in case it is not followed. Please be careful. :)

I agree with the posts here, and posting response to the stereotyping which we are discussing.

We are watching a show which is "supposed" to be set in 16th century. I agree that, many OTT things have happened, which do not give the show a look like 16th Century.

But, i want to make a point that, not all ladies in that age were as strong as i have seen/read/known about MUZ. I wanted her characterization to be at par with what she was.

It is stereotyping that Male is protector of female.?. Interesting question. We have the likes of Marykom, our female athletes, other sportsperson, and many female players who are breaking the traditional norms and entering into the sports which were considered bastions of male sportsperson. We have many CEO's of leading institutions, as ladies. We have doctors and teachers among them. Recently, the Chairman of ISRO while launching the book on Mars Mission, said that the team handling the placement of satellite in orbit was headed by ladies. The Research Lab of many facilities there are still headed by ladies. There are examples in many fields.

While i stand for complete equality of both genders in present world.

BUT

Do we think that 450 years back , that was the case. As i mentioned few lines back, NOT ALL were strong like Razia, MUZ or NJ in those days. Not all were very politically powerful. We had certain / few ladies who were really powerful and we are demanding a strong characterization for them.


I also wanted a strong Jodha. And posted this yesterday afternoon on Lasya's thread..
Link: 115894576
""
But when it comes to Jodha, i wanted the CV's to show her growth also, along with Jalal. She was a business woman, commanded cavalries, had great hold in the Mughal Sultanate, known to issue charitable lands, had issues political farmans even, had her jaagir . But did we see even an iota of those facts.?. NO. The CV's seem to have reduced her role to singing Bhajans, and making Rangolis. They should have broken the norm, and come above the normally accepted trend of a "Medieval LadY" who could do nothing except some selected works which we all know.🥱 She had wished Hasan and Husain to be like their father when they grow up. Clearly shows that , US WAQT , she also had a vision regarding her sons. But right now, it seems nothing of the sort is happening. Leave a POWERFUL Empress, right now she looks like any other common lady. It seems she is MUZ just for name. In my opinion, She was much better, assertive before she got this title. Not once, CV's gave a good introduction like announcement in DEK, that - " Malika-e-Hind Mariam-Uz-Zamani Begum is arriving" ,< i mean the sort of announcement done for Emperor. Not once is she shown involved in some farman issuing activity. The list can go on and on.
""

^^^^
Had it been someone else, i won't have written this, but i wrote this because hers was the CASE which was different from those among medieval ladies. The CV's could have broken the run of the mill concept of showcasing all ladies as subservient, as i have known from this forum itself that in other shows normally the same old story repeats.

BUT, Did anyone of us demand a strong Bakshi Bano.?. I don't know, perhaps we demanded.
I did not demand it, because i have not heard of her as a strong lady.
In the movie, and also in the readings her image does not comes across as that of a strong lady.
Hence, if she is shown as a abla naari, would that be also called stereotyping.?.
This case i will not call stereotyping, in my opinion.


Coming to our show, i will give one example, which i mentioned a month back, that is about the Mirchi War.
Link :
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/114811745

"
I had no problems with the Mirchi War. But i had problems with Abul Maali capturing Jalal. I had no problems with the Harem Ladies fighting for their honor, but i had problems with the torture of Jalal that too at the hands of someone of the ranks of Abul Maali.. For me, Mirchi War and Jalal torture are 2 different events. Hence, i will NOT mix up both of them. Both could have been shown in some manner, but CV's went the other way..!!..
"

^^^ In this case, Ekta tried to show a strong league of women, but in this process, she just ERASED Akbar. She could have shown (i)Akbar fighting and also shown the (ii)ladies fighting for honor. But, she skipped the first part.

Are we talking of stereotyping in general or stereotyping in case of our show. ?

Isn't this also stereotyping that, MOST men would leave/ditch/shrug off their wives in case of crisis.?. Is the reverse not possible.?. I think the practicing lawyers here would be knowing of enough cases which i am trying to mention here.
Are there only the male authorities/politicians who make stereotypical remarks.?.


I, for one, do not know about "most" of other shows in details, and hence, i am talking about ONLY Jodha Akbar. It is not that , all the shows females are portrayed as abla naaris. Recently, I have come to know of a show, where a wife entered the prestigious Indian Police Services after her marriage, though her husband is a normal shopkeeper. There may not be many cases of such shows but, there are shows which showcase strong women, and in BETTER positions than their husbands.

This issue runs across various realms, and is quite common and applies to both the "segments" . The small screen has also shown strong women in the shows, and also shown them as doormats. We can not generalize the case.I won't be able to think of a generalization here...

@Priya...

Thanks a lot for the details and the WU...Will try to respond as soon as possible.
I have not read all the posts till now 'carefully' . Will be back later.
BTW, My comment was a general reminder, not for you... I liked your details... 😊

Originally posted by: history_geek

Last night's episode was quite good it seems. I have not seen it.
Only heard that Jalal administered Justice and kept his theory of kingship above all. :)

I am missing out, on the details of episode. Can someone elaborate.?.


PS : I also want to share LOT of historical anecdotes but not doing so keeping in mind the forum rule based on historical discussions. I hope we remember that rule and the consequences for this thread in case it is not followed. Please be careful. :)

Originally posted by: history_geek

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">
I agree with the posts here, and posting response to the stereotyping which we are discussing.

We are watching a show which is "supposed" to be set in 16th century. I agree that, many OTT things have happened, which do not give the show a look like 16th Century.

But, i want to make a point that, not all ladies in that age were as strong as i have seen/read/known about MUZ. I wanted her characterization to be at par with what she was.

It is stereotyping that Male is protector of female.?. Interesting question. We have the likes of Marykom, our female athletes, other sportsperson, and many female players who are breaking the traditional norms and entering into the sports which were considered bastions of male sportsperson. We have many CEO's of leading institutions, as ladies. We have doctors and teachers among them. Recently, the Chairman of ISRO while launching the book on Mars Mission, said that the team handling the placement of satellite in orbit was headed by ladies. The Research Lab of many facilities there are still headed by ladies. There are examples in many fields.

While i stand for complete equality of both genders in present world.

BUT

Do we think that 450 years back , that was the case. As i mentioned few lines back, NOT ALL were strong like Razia, MUZ or NJ in those days. Not all were very politically powerful. We had certain / few ladies who were really powerful and we are demanding a strong characterization for them.


I also wanted a strong Jodha. And posted this yesterday afternoon on Lasya's thread..
Link: </font><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">115894576
""
But when it comes to Jodha,
i wanted the CV's to show her growth also, along with Jalal. She was a
business woman, commanded cavalries, had great hold in the Mughal
Sultanate, known to issue charitable lands, had issues political farmans
even, had her jaagir . But did we see even an iota of those facts.?.
NO. The CV's seem to have reduced her role to singing Bhajans, and
making Rangolis. They should have broken the norm, and come above the
normally accepted trend of a "Medieval LadY" who could do nothing except some selected works which we all know.🥱
She had wished Hasan and Husain to be like their father when they grow
up. Clearly shows that , US WAQT , she also had a vision regarding her
sons. But right now, it seems nothing of the sort is happening. Leave a
POWERFUL Empress, right now she looks like any other common lady. It
seems she is MUZ just for name. In my opinion, She was much better,
assertive before she got this title. Not once, CV's gave a good
introduction like announcement in DEK, that - " Malika-e-Hind
Mariam-Uz-Zamani Begum is arriving" ,< i mean the sort of
announcement done for Emperor. Not once is she shown involved in some
farman issuing activity. The list can go on and on.
""

^^^^
Had it been someone else, i won't have written this, but i wrote this because hers was the CASE which was different from those among medieval ladies. The CV's could have broken the run of the mill concept of showcasing all ladies as subservient, as i have known from this forum itself that in other shows normally the same old story repeats.

BUT, Did anyone of us demand a strong Bakshi Bano.?. I don't know, perhaps we
demanded.
I did not demand it, because i have not heard of her as a
strong lady.
In the movie, and also in the readings her image does not
comes across as that of a strong lady.
Hence, if she is shown as a abla naari, would that be also called stereotyping.?.
This case i will not call stereotyping, in my opinion.

</font>
<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Coming to our show, i will give one example, which i mentioned a month back, that is about the Mirchi War.
Link :
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/114811745

"
I had no problems with the Mirchi War.
But i had problems with Abul Maali capturing Jalal. I had no problems
with the Harem Ladies fighting for their honor, but i had problems with
the torture of Jalal that too at the hands of someone of the
ranks of Abul Maali.. For me, Mirchi War and Jalal torture are 2
different events. Hence, i will NOT mix up both of them. Both could have been shown in some manner, but CV's went the other way..!!..
"

</font>^^^ In this case, Ekta tried to show a strong league of women, but in this process, she just ERASED Akbar. She could have shown (i)Akbar fighting and also shown the (ii)ladies fighting for honor. But, she skipped the first part.

Are we talking of stereotyping in general or stereotyping in case of our show. ?

Isn't this also stereotyping that, MOST men would leave/ditch/shrug off their wives in case of crisis.?. Is the reverse not possible.?. I think the practicing lawyers here would be knowing of enough cases which i am trying to mention here.
Are there only the male authorities/politicians who make stereotypical remarks.?.


</font><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">I, for one, do not know about "most" of
other shows in details, and hence, i am talking about ONLY Jodha Akbar. It
is not that , all the shows females are portrayed as abla naaris. Recently, I have
come to know of a show, where a wife entered the prestigious Indian
Police Services after her marriage, though her husband is a normal shopkeeper. There may not be many cases of such
shows but, there are shows which showcase strong women, and in BETTER positions than their husbands.
</font>
This issue runs across various realms, and is quite common and applies to both the "segments" . The small screen has also shown strong women in the shows, and also shown them as doormats. </font><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">We can not generalize the case.</font>I won't be able to think of a generalization here...

</font>

Hi...
I am new here...although i have read many of your posts before...
In fact, I have learnt so much about the Mughals from one of your threads...

Firstly, I would like to say...great post... 👏
When the serial started, I loved Jodha...
From wat I know, she was one strong, powerful yet dignified n graceful woman...
She traded with the Portuguese(if i am not wrong) n enjoyed a powerful position...

Such a woman must have had a really overwhelming personality...unlike wat we have in this serial...

Initially I loved Jodha, but now my liking for her is reduced...
Bcoz Jodha's character has not grown in the past years...n that power n position are missing...
Even after becoming Maryam-Uz-Zamani, that power is missing in her personality...
She's still the woman who accepts all insults...

Now i find Ruqaiyya to be much better... 😆
I know she's evil, vicious, insolent n cruel...but she holds her ground no matter wat n does not bow down to anyone...

I wanted Jodha to be depicted with this power, without the evil side...

But the CVs have reduced her to an ordinary Queen...just another wife of Akbar, who's busy running after her kid...

Originally posted by: history_geek

I agree with the posts here, and posting response to the stereotyping which we are discussing.

We are watching a show which is "supposed" to be set in 16th century. I agree that, many OTT things have happened, which do not give the show a look like 16th Century.

But, i want to make a point that, not all ladies in that age were as strong as i have seen/read/known about MUZ. I wanted her characterization to be at par with what she was.

It is stereotyping that Male is protector of female.?. Interesting question. We have the likes of Marykom, our female athletes, other sportsperson, and many female players who are breaking the traditional norms and entering into the sports which were considered bastions of male sportsperson. We have many CEO's of leading institutions, as ladies. We have doctors and teachers among them. Recently, the Chairman of ISRO while launching the book on Mars Mission, said that the team handling the placement of satellite in orbit was headed by ladies. The Research Lab of many facilities there are still headed by ladies. There are examples in many fields.

While i stand for complete equality of both genders in present world.

BUT

Do we think that 450 years back , that was the case. As i mentioned few lines back, NOT ALL were strong like Razia, MUZ or NJ in those days. Not all were very politically powerful. We had certain / few ladies who were really powerful and we are demanding a strong characterization for them.


I also wanted a strong Jodha. And posted this yesterday afternoon on Lasya's thread..
Link: 115894576
""
But when it comes to Jodha, i wanted the CV's to show her growth also, along with Jalal. She was a business woman, commanded cavalries, had great hold in the Mughal Sultanate, known to issue charitable lands, had issues political farmans even, had her jaagir . But did we see even an iota of those facts.?. NO. The CV's seem to have reduced her role to singing Bhajans, and making Rangolis. They should have broken the norm, and come above the normally accepted trend of a "Medieval LadY" who could do nothing except some selected works which we all know.🥱 She had wished Hasan and Husain to be like their father when they grow up. Clearly shows that , US WAQT , she also had a vision regarding her sons. But right now, it seems nothing of the sort is happening. Leave a POWERFUL Empress, right now she looks like any other common lady. It seems she is MUZ just for name. In my opinion, She was much better, assertive before she got this title. Not once, CV's gave a good introduction like announcement in DEK, that - " Malika-e-Hind Mariam-Uz-Zamani Begum is arriving" ,< i mean the sort of announcement done for Emperor. Not once is she shown involved in some farman issuing activity. The list can go on and on.
""

^^^^
Had it been someone else, i won't have written this, but i wrote this because hers was the CASE which was different from those among medieval ladies. The CV's could have broken the run of the mill concept of showcasing all ladies as subservient, as i have known from this forum itself that in other shows normally the same old story repeats.

BUT, Did anyone of us demand a strong Bakshi Bano.?. I don't know, perhaps we demanded.
I did not demand it, because i have not heard of her as a strong lady.
In the movie, and also in the readings her image does not comes across as that of a strong lady.
Hence, if she is shown as a abla naari, would that be also called stereotyping.?.
This case i will not call stereotyping, in my opinion.


Coming to our show, i will give one example, which i mentioned a month back, that is about the Mirchi War.
Link :
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/114811745

"
I had no problems with the Mirchi War. But i had problems with Abul Maali capturing Jalal. I had no problems with the Harem Ladies fighting for their honor, but i had problems with the torture of Jalal that too at the hands of someone of the ranks of Abul Maali.. For me, Mirchi War and Jalal torture are 2 different events. Hence, i will NOT mix up both of them. Both could have been shown in some manner, but CV's went the other way..!!..
"

^^^ In this case, Ekta tried to show a strong league of women, but in this process, she just ERASED Akbar. She could have shown (i)Akbar fighting and also shown the (ii)ladies fighting for honor. But, she skipped the first part.

Are we talking of stereotyping in general or stereotyping in case of our show. ?

Isn't this also stereotyping that, MOST men would leave/ditch/shrug off their wives in case of crisis.?. Is the reverse not possible.?. I think the practicing lawyers here would be knowing of enough cases which i am trying to mention here.
Are there only the male authorities/politicians who make stereotypical remarks.?.


I, for one, do not know about "most" of other shows in details, and hence, i am talking about ONLY Jodha Akbar. It is not that , all the shows females are portrayed as abla naaris. Recently, I have come to know of a show, where a wife entered the prestigious Indian Police Services after her marriage, though her husband is a normal shopkeeper. There may not be many cases of such shows but, there are shows which showcase strong women, and in BETTER positions than their husbands.

This issue runs across various realms, and is quite common and applies to both the "segments" . The small screen has also shown strong women in the shows, and also shown them as doormats. We can not generalize the case.I won't be able to think of a generalization here...

Originally posted by: history_geek

I agree with the posts here, and posting response to the stereotyping which we are discussing.

We are watching a show which is "supposed" to be set in 16th century. I agree that, many OTT things have happened, which do not give the show a look like 16th Century.

But, i want to make a point that, not all ladies in that age were as strong as i have seen/read/known about MUZ. I wanted her characterization to be at par with what she was.

It is stereotyping that Male is protector of female.?. Interesting question. We have the likes of Marykom, our female athletes, other sportsperson, and many female players who are breaking the traditional norms and entering into the sports which were considered bastions of male sportsperson. We have many CEO's of leading institutions, as ladies. We have doctors and teachers among them. Recently, the Chairman of ISRO while launching the book on Mars Mission, said that the team handling the placement of satellite in orbit was headed by ladies. The Research Lab of many facilities there are still headed by ladies. There are examples in many fields.

While i stand for complete equality of both genders in present world.

BUT

Do we think that 450 years back , that was the case. As i mentioned few lines back, NOT ALL were strong like Razia, MUZ or NJ in those days. Not all were very politically powerful. We had certain / few ladies who were really powerful and we are demanding a strong characterization for them.


I also wanted a strong Jodha. And posted this yesterday afternoon on Lasya's thread..
Link: 115894576
""
But when it comes to Jodha, i wanted the CV's to show her growth also, along with Jalal. She was a business woman, commanded cavalries, had great hold in the Mughal Sultanate, known to issue charitable lands, had issues political farmans even, had her jaagir . But did we see even an iota of those facts.?. NO. The CV's seem to have reduced her role to singing Bhajans, and making Rangolis. They should have broken the norm, and come above the normally accepted trend of a "Medieval LadY" who could do nothing except some selected works which we all know.🥱 She had wished Hasan and Husain to be like their father when they grow up. Clearly shows that , US WAQT , she also had a vision regarding her sons. But right now, it seems nothing of the sort is happening. Leave a POWERFUL Empress, right now she looks like any other common lady. It seems she is MUZ just for name. In my opinion, She was much better, assertive before she got this title. Not once, CV's gave a good introduction like announcement in DEK, that - " Malika-e-Hind Mariam-Uz-Zamani Begum is arriving" ,< i mean the sort of announcement done for Emperor. Not once is she shown involved in some farman issuing activity. The list can go on and on.
""

^^^^
Had it been someone else, i won't have written this, but i wrote this because hers was the CASE which was different from those among medieval ladies. The CV's could have broken the run of the mill concept of showcasing all ladies as subservient, as i have known from this forum itself that in other shows normally the same old story repeats.

BUT, Did anyone of us demand a strong Bakshi Bano.?. I don't know, perhaps we demanded.
I did not demand it, because i have not heard of her as a strong lady.
In the movie, and also in the readings her image does not comes across as that of a strong lady.
Hence, if she is shown as a abla naari, would that be also called stereotyping.?.
This case i will not call stereotyping, in my opinion.


Coming to our show, i will give one example, which i mentioned a month back, that is about the Mirchi War.
Link :
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/114811745

"
I had no problems with the Mirchi War. But i had problems with Abul Maali capturing Jalal. I had no problems with the Harem Ladies fighting for their honor, but i had problems with the torture of Jalal that too at the hands of someone of the ranks of Abul Maali.. For me, Mirchi War and Jalal torture are 2 different events. Hence, i will NOT mix up both of them. Both could have been shown in some manner, but CV's went the other way..!!..
"

^^^ In this case, Ekta tried to show a strong league of women, but in this process, she just ERASED Akbar. She could have shown (i)Akbar fighting and also shown the (ii)ladies fighting for honor. But, she skipped the first part.

Are we talking of stereotyping in general or stereotyping in case of our show. ?

Isn't this also stereotyping that, MOST men would leave/ditch/shrug off their wives in case of crisis.?. Is the reverse not possible.?. I think the practicing lawyers here would be knowing of enough cases which i am trying to mention here.
Are there only the male authorities/politicians who make stereotypical remarks.?.


I, for one, do not know about "most" of other shows in details, and hence, i am talking about ONLY Jodha Akbar. It is not that , all the shows females are portrayed as abla naaris. Recently, I have come to know of a show, where a wife entered the prestigious Indian Police Services after her marriage, though her husband is a normal shopkeeper. There may not be many cases of such shows but, there are shows which showcase strong women, and in BETTER positions than their husbands.

This issue runs across various realms, and is quite common and applies to both the "segments" . The small screen has also shown strong women in the shows, and also shown them as doormats. We can not generalize the case.I won't be able to think of a generalization here...

@Radhika,

Regarding stereotypes...I put forth my views with the help of two quotes--😊