Ques on MahaBhrarta. Peep in/ DT Nt pg 25 - Page 18

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Y12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


I don't know if Shakuni ever repented, as the epic doesn't focus too much on the inner thoughts of his character, but I think Duryodhan did repent in his last moments. I remember reading about him lamenting about his choices, and how his choices caused the destruction of his clan. I'm not entirely sure if this is in the original epic or not, but I read it somewhere.


weird question: so do repenting at last moments count?
As in he didnt do any hard labor or anything, but did God accepted his repentance? Or was his repentance complete by the miseries he went through seeing his friends and family die?

PS:.. which is why he went to heaven?..also i do not agree with the fact Dury went to heaven. I cannot digest this, main text doesnt say much. I know Pandavs went to heaven, as someone explained to me it was just a trick. Bhishma and Drona went to heaven, Karna & Yudy went to heaven, Karna to Suryalock & highest place in heaven. Shakuni in hell of course. Who else? Also I wanted to know about the ladies do they go to hell or heaven? Kunti and Gandhari?Abhimanyu & kids to heaven... is list right?

Edited by Y12345 - 7 years ago
Y12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
About repentance, I know it is a unpopular opinion but I somewhere feel that it differs from person to person. I agree that true repentance comes from hardwork, and making sacrifices. But this is what you can do for yourself. I am not saying that Pandavas exile were not repentance, it was, Pandavas were nice people, they accumulated high karma, but what are other ways to repent? ( since this is my distorted way of thinking lol, feel free to disagree, it's kinda far fetched)
From a practical point of view, I think giving back to the world can be a good way to repent. I do not know how to explain this, but after Panchali humilation, the pandavas could have worked to make the world a better place for women, (did they after war and getting the throne, no evidence) but yes, apart from Panchali, I'm sure it was the plight of many other women, who were not queen, and didnt have warriors to fight their battles. And predators are not only Dury& Dushana, but there are many. I would have love to see them avenging the humilation of other women, instead of just their wife. Even Panchali could have worked to improve the conditions of women in general: assault, society shaming women who have child out of wedlocks(kunti), widowed women(assuming Ghandhari folktale is true) going through hell, things like that.
Giving back to the world, helping others, and making the world a better place, because the world need all of us to be a better place, and going to a forest, exile will not solve the root of the problem. Take Pandu for example, instead of going to exile to repent, he could have done things differently. And we see the result : his arrogant bro getting throne, and all that follows.
Of course, meditating over one deeds is mandatory but also doing something to give back to the world is also important.
Yudy was wise, so he could have impart his knowledge in kids, and teach them to be good human beings. He would have been an excellent mentor .Arjun and Karna were super archers, they could have teach people archery and be great mentors instead of fighting each other, and even though Karna did a lot of charity, and gave everything he had, maybe he could have taught kids from other social backgrounds, archery, but maybe he did all he could, giving charity to the point of stupidity.Arjun could have done same when Karna died( idk if he did, did he?)
I remember reading something like this, ( I forgot which book) but Krishna tells Karna that Dury used him as he was good in archery and in competition with Arjun. He asked Karna if he really cared about sutraputras getting knowledge, he would have open doors of opportunities for many people like karna, but he didnt. He never cared.
Pitamah, the wisest and talented guy, instead of staying quiet all his life, and whining on his fate(that he himself decided) could have tried to do some good to the world. Like spreading the good in him to the world through practical steps
But of course, with sincerely, and good intention. I don't know why MB seems like a personal battle between brothers,and a revenge plot, in some media, when it was for the greater good: they actually never showed it that way. 😕

By the way, assuming we want to repent for something, in 21th century, can we drop our studies, job, people, and go to find a forest, and medidate? Giving up all pleasures, we will die of hunger, diseases, and what not. Repentance vary from society to society and century. Jail is to repent for crimes, laid down by the law, but what if someone wants to repent for his moral responsibility?
We tend to think as long as we are not committing crimes, we are white people. That's not true, MB tells us what we say has impact as well, so if someone bullies someone, how shall we repent for that? What if this bullying push someone to extremities. Or judgement due to society,, crushing and killing, and all the bashing, hate we throw to others?

This is to say, that if each individual, tried their best to spread a little more kindness, a little more empathy, a little helping hand around, this could alleviate their sins, for those concerned. Instead of going to exile, and avoid contact with outside world ( like Pandu), face it, change it, correct it, and try to alter the reaction that the action caused. Just my two cents.



Edited by Y12345 - 7 years ago
shruthiravi thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
Yenna I am a bit busy at this time. But I would reply to ur query in my own way.
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: Y12345


weird question: so do repenting at last moments count?
As in he didnt do any hard labor or anything, but did God accepted his repentance? Or was his repentance complete by the miseries he went through seeing his friends and family die?

PS:.. which is why he went to heaven?..also i do not agree with the fact Dury went to heaven. I cannot digest this, main text doesnt say much. I know Pandavs went to heaven, as someone explained to me it was just a trick. Bhishma and Drona went to heaven, Karna & Yudy went to heaven, Karna to Suryalock & highest place in heaven. Shakuni in hell of course. Who else? Also I wanted to know about the ladies do they go to hell or heaven? Kunti and Gandhari?Abhimanyu & kids to heaven... is list right?


Regarding heaven and hell, our scriptures state that both are only temporary illusions before rebirth. Based on every individual's karma, they experience a bit of heaven or hell, or even both, before taking rebirth again on Earth. When it comes to the Kauravas, Yama Dharmaraja explains to Yudhisthira that he's seeing the Kauravas in heaven and his brothers in hell, because every person experiences what they have in limited amounts first, before experiencing the more long-term fruits. For example, the Kauravas had less good karma and more bad karma, thus they experienced heaven first and then will experience hell. The Pandavas had less bad karma and more good karma, thus they experienced hell first before going to Narayana loka eternally before one with Lord Vishnu. Also, our scriptures do say that those who die on the battlefield achieve moksha, because by then they would have experienced all the pain of their bad karma, whatever remains, so whether Duryodhan and the other Kauravas repented or not, they would have achieved moksha after dying. Once they experienced both heaven and hell based on their merits, they would have all achieved moksha.

Only exception was Ashvatthama, but Krishna told him that once he served the term of his punishment, he too would attain heaven.

Also, regarding what you said about repentance, I agree that samaaj seva, service to society, is the first step to repentance. Our scriptures do say that every person first has dharma towards his family, then society, then himself by the end of life. So serving society is the first step towards repentance. Do good to others, and afterwards, meditate towards God. Becoming one with God is the ultimate step of repentance, but by serving society, a person automatically gets there.

The Pandavas did serve the people they met in their exile. Remember, with Draupadi's magical cooking pot, they used to feed 1000s of hungry people everyday, never turning away a person that came to their door, and annadaan is said to be one of the highest forms of service to society. Also, the Pandavas would protect the people of the forests who were in any danger, and they served the saints and sages whatever be their demands.

I think there are different forms of service available to those interested, and it's difficult (and unfair) to say what's superior to the other. I think a person should serve society in whatever way they're capable, in whatever way that touches their heart and makes them feel the repentance of their actions. Denying oneself of pleasures of life doesn't mean starving oneself. It just means eating, drinking and sleeping only as much as is needed to survive, and spending the rest of one's life dwelling on the wrong they did, serving society, and meditating on God.

I think the Kurukshetra War itself was a warning to people not to dishonor women. After all, Draupadi got her justice, but the action of Dushashan's death too was a warning to all those who tormented women. It's easy to say people should eradicate violence against women and fight for justice, but it's much harder than that to bring change. Change comes slow, and the first step was avenging Draupadi's insult. We don't know how the Pandavas' rule after the war was, but judging by how they ruled Indraprastha, they probably did ensure people were satisfied and safe in their kingdom.
Y12345 thumbnail
11th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


Regarding heaven and hell, our scriptures state that both are only temporary illusions before rebirth. Based on every individual's karma, they experience a bit of heaven or hell, or even both, before taking rebirth again on Earth. When it comes to the Kauravas, Yama Dharmaraja explains to Yudhisthira that he's seeing the Kauravas in heaven and his brothers in hell, because every person experiences what they have in limited amounts first, before experiencing the more long-term fruits. For example, the Kauravas had less good karma and more bad karma, thus they experienced heaven first and then will experience hell. The Pandavas had less bad karma and more good karma, thus they experienced hell first before going to Narayana loka eternally before one with Lord Vishnu. Also, our scriptures do say that those who die on the battlefield achieve moksha, because by then they would have experienced all the pain of their bad karma, whatever remains, so whether Duryodhan and the other Kauravas repented or not, they would have achieved moksha after dying. Once they experienced both heaven and hell based on their merits, they would have all achieved moksha.

Only exception was Ashvatthama, but Krishna told him that once he served the term of his punishment, he too would attain heaven.

Also, regarding what you said about repentance, I agree that samaaj seva, service to society, is the first step to repentance. Our scriptures do say that every person first has dharma towards his family, then society, then himself by the end of life. So serving society is the first step towards repentance. Do good to others, and afterwards, meditate towards God. Becoming one with God is the ultimate step of repentance, but by serving society, a person automatically gets there.

The Pandavas did serve the people they met in their exile. Remember, with Draupadi's magical cooking pot, they used to feed 1000s of hungry people everyday, never turning away a person that came to their door, and annadaan is said to be one of the highest forms of service to society. Also, the Pandavas would protect the people of the forests who were in any danger, and they served the saints and sages whatever be their demands.

I think there are different forms of service available to those interested, and it's difficult (and unfair) to say what's superior to the other. I think a person should serve society in whatever way they're capable, in whatever way that touches their heart and makes them feel the repentance of their actions. Denying oneself of pleasures of life doesn't mean starving oneself. It just means eating, drinking and sleeping only as much as is needed to survive, and spending the rest of one's life dwelling on the wrong they did, serving society, and meditating on God.

I think the Kurukshetra War itself was a warning to people not to dishonor women. After all, Draupadi got her justice, but the action of Dushashan's death too was a warning to all those who tormented women. It's easy to say people should eradicate violence against women and fight for justice, but it's much harder than that to bring change. Change comes slow, and the first step was avenging Draupadi's insult. We don't know how the Pandavas' rule after the war was, but judging by how they ruled Indraprastha, they probably did ensure people were satisfied and safe in their kingdom.


Yes that's true.
Btw do you think that repentance should be personal?
As in, the degree of participation in a deed will not be the same for everyone. I also wonder Panchali, and Kunti had to repent along with their hubby? They did not do anything wrong, its kk\ind of unfair.

I think Shakuni never repented,because he had no dharma left. I mean everyone can repent, but to repent, you must have a little dharma left, the thought of repentance cannot come from nowhere. I admit, Shakuni is a complex character, he wanted destruction, and never mind to die in his revenge.
____________________________________________________________________________



Btw guys, for those dealing with stress, came across an article http://ravikhangai.blogspot.com/2011/12/bhagavd-gita-and-stress-management.html
its written by a professor, so assuming it's more or less correct.


Edited by Y12345 - 7 years ago
shruthiravi thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago
Yenna my take on the topic is this. We all are humans. Lord has sent us to this earth with a purpose of serving him by using our power to make this universe a better place for coming generations. You need to understand as per mythology the role of Narayan is sustenance of life. It's neither creation, nor destruction its sustenance. How do you sustain life. By having the knowledge discriminate between things that needs to be destroyed, modified or added so that the life goes on.
Where does this knowledge come from. It is within you, through the experience your soul has taken through many births. But to tap that information your conscious is not enough, you need to connect to your subsconcious or unconscious. This is where Hinduism offers the form of worship to Lord as a friend and this relation is beautifully shown to us by Narayan himself through his relation with Arjuna.

He asks Arjuna do you want me without weapon or my power. Narayan or Narayani Sena. Arjun chooses Narayana and he comes as Arjun's charioteer taking the reins of Arjun's battle, directing him how to use his power for the larger good.

Now before you start seeing improvement you have to pay for your karma before you allowed Lord to take your reins. That's what happens with death of Abhimanyu post which the battle changes.

We need to know Krishna is not about revenge, but about justice. If we need results first we have to surrender our ego and pay for our karma and then allow ourselves to heed his direction, trusting him.

If you want answers you have to surrender to him the way Arjun does and Bhagavad Gita will open up to u as the answers to your questions. When you follow the path slowly you will understand him and his ways, his communication pattern and after some time you know when he speaks within you. This I can vouch for because I have experienced this to a great extent.

Ram lived a life of maryada, Krishna not only lived but taught another man that life. If you follow Krishna you will reach Ram only, but you will know him better.

In a nutshell what I want to tell is if God can do everything he need not have created humans with thinking ability. He created us because he trusted us to take his direction and use our power than always misuse his power and self destroy. The way Kauravas did with Narayani sena. If we cannot understand how to use our power, how will we know how to use his power.

So the lesson is that every human has to stand up for himself, then naturally at the right time Lord will come for him just like Krishna came for Arjuna on the 14th day.
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: Y12345


Yes that's true.
Btw do you think that repentance should be personal?
As in, the degree of participation in a deed will not be the same for everyone. I also wonder Panchali, and Kunti had to repent along with their hubby? They did not do anything wrong, its kk\ind of unfair.

I think Shakuni never repented,because he had no dharma left. I mean everyone can repent, but to repent, you must have a little dharma left, the thought of repentance cannot come from nowhere. I admit, Shakuni is a complex character, he wanted destruction, and never mind to die in his revenge.
____________________________________________________________________________



You're right, repentance is different for everyone. I think when a person truly wants to repent, God will show them the path to take. But first, we need to remove our ego, admit that we made a grave mistake, and be willing to change. Once we are in that mindset, we are ready to repent, and God himself will show us what path to take. When that time comes, we will know.

As for Panchali and Kunti, neither of them were obligated to follow their husbands. Panchali was not part of the exile given to the Pandavas, and neither were Kunti and Madri part of Pandu's self-imposed exile, but they chose to accompany their husbands and offer them support in their respective journeys. Panchali knew she was the strength and inspiration for her husbands, and thus she accompanied them on their exile to remind them for what they strove. Her presence assured that the Pandavas gained the strength to repent for those 13 long years. Same with Kunti and Madri; they adhered to the wedding vows they made and followed their husband no matter his circumstances, quite like how Devi Sita did. She too was not a part of Ram's exile, but she followed him as his strength and support.

I actually don't think Shakuni was as evil as everyone makes him out to be. He certainly wanted revenge, true, but he wasn't as manipulative and calculating as TV shows and movies show him to be. In fact, he was only a background presence in Duryodhan's schemes. Most of what Duryodhan cooked up, he did himself.
Edited by ..RamKiJanaki.. - 7 years ago
Y12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


You're right, repentance is different for everyone. I think when a person truly wants to repent, God will show them the path to take. But first, we need to remove our ego, admit that we made a grave mistake, and be willing to change. Once we are in that mindset, we are ready to repent, and God himself will show us what path to take. When that time comes, we will know.

As for Panchali and Kunti, neither of them were obligated to follow their husbands. Panchali was not part of the exile given to the Pandavas, and neither were Kunti and Madri part of Pandu's self-imposed exile, but they chose to accompany their husbands and offer them support in their respective journeys. Panchali knew she was the strength and inspiration for her husbands, and thus she accompanied them on their exile to remind them for what they strove. Her presence assured that the Pandavas gained the strength to repent for those 13 long years. Same with Kunti and Madri; they adhered to the wedding vows they made and followed their husband no matter his circumstances, quite like how Devi Sita did. She too was not a part of Ram's exile, but she followed him as his strength and support.

I actually don't think Shakuni was as evil as everyone makes him out to be. He certainly wanted revenge, true, but he wasn't as manipulative and calculating as TV shows and movies show him to be. In fact, he was only a background presence in Duryodhan's schemes. Most of what Duryodhan cooked up, he did himself.


I agree completely with the bold part. Completely. Remember in the very first posts, I posted about Krishna's role in the war. Now this falls perfectly into place. As we established, exile/helping others could be a great way of repentance and even when someone doesnt kill its ego and repent, god will find a way to make him/her pay for his sins, in his own way- a bit like repentance but this time according to him only. I am also more inclined to believe that repentance should be an action, rather than an omission. Example Dury, by hook or crook he ended up paying for his mistakes, at the end. Krishna made sure that all the scores ( in talking language!) are settled. About the Pandavas exile, Krishna wanted them to go on exile to prepare for the war, because all the preparation was done while they were in vanvaas, and the things they couldn't repent for(if ever), Krishna made sure they -also pay for it- We all agree that the war was not who lose, who win because in the end everyone lost. So Pandavas too paid a great deal- Abhimanyu, Bheem son, all their kids, and even Karna, if its true that they also insulted him being a sutraputra, then by killing him, without knowing he was their elder bro, they did commit franticide and cried for his loss. God has ways to make justice prevail. Pandavas and Yudy stalked Panchali, and in return they had to kill all their cousins. King and Queen, never taught their kids good things, and they ended up alone at the end. God sometimes have weird plans to ensure we repent.

About the ladies, yes they did it because they didnt wanted to leave their hubby alone, but I wonder if society would have judged them if they didn't.

I agree for shakuni, he wasnt entirely black; in fact no one was black. Just different shades of grey
Edited by Y12345 - 7 years ago
Y12345 thumbnail
11th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: shruthiravi

Yenna my take on the topic is this. We all are humans. Lord has sent us to this earth with a purpose of serving him by using our power to make this universe a better place for coming generations. You need to understand as per mythology the role of Narayan is sustenance of life. It's neither creation, nor destruction its sustenance. How do you sustain life. By having the knowledge discriminate between things that needs to be destroyed, modified or added so that the life goes on.

Where does this knowledge come from. It is within you, through the experience your soul has taken through many births. But to tap that information your conscious is not enough, you need to connect to your subsconcious or unconscious. This is where Hinduism offers the form of worship to Lord as a friend and this relation is beautifully shown to us by Narayan himself through his relation with Arjuna.

He asks Arjuna do you want me without weapon or my power. Narayan or Narayani Sena. Arjun chooses Narayana and he comes as Arjun's charioteer taking the reins of Arjun's battle, directing him how to use his power for the larger good.

Now before you start seeing improvement you have to pay for your karma before you allowed Lord to take your reins. That's what happens with death of Abhimanyu post which the battle changes.

We need to know Krishna is not about revenge, but about justice. If we need results first we have to surrender our ego and pay for our karma and then allow ourselves to heed his direction, trusting him.

If you want answers you have to surrender to him the way Arjun does and Bhagavad Gita will open up to u as the answers to your questions. When you follow the path slowly you will understand him and his ways, his communication pattern and after some time you know when he speaks within you. This I can vouch for because I have experienced this to a great extent.

Ram lived a life of maryada, Krishna not only lived but taught another man that life. If you follow Krishna you will reach Ram only, but you will know him better.

In a nutshell what I want to tell is if God can do everything he need not have created humans with thinking ability. He created us because he trusted us to take his direction and use our power than always misuse his power and self destroy. The way Kauravas did with Narayani sena. If we cannot understand how to use our power, how will we know how to use his power.

So the lesson is that every human has to stand up for himself, then naturally at the right time Lord will come for him just like Krishna came for Arjuna on the 14th day.


Shruti, thank you so much for taking the time to share your POV. You are always welcome here, feel free to jump into the discussion and any other questions raised.

As always, I always enjoyed reading your thoughtful pieces and I agree with you that, we must surrender to him, so that we understand him. All people in this thread share this same view and I love your analysis and how Krishna is sustenance, not destruction, because I never saw things that way. So you said that we indeed have the ability to understand him, and the right knowledge already lies within us, we just need to realize it. Could you please elaborate on the bold part a bit and if you dont mind?
Edited by Y12345 - 7 years ago
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 7 years ago

Originally posted by: Y12345



About the ladies, yes they did it because they didnt wanted to leave their hubby alone, but I wonder if society would have judged them if they didn't.

I agree for shakuni, he wasnt entirely black; in fact no one was black. Just different shades of grey


I don't think society would have judged them, because none of the other wives of Pandavas went on exile with them. Only Draupadi did, and a part of her decision, I believe was to ensure the Pandavas never forgot the humiliation she went through, and also because she was irrevocably woven into their respective duties during the exile. Neither did Urmila follow Lakshman into exile, and the world does not judge her. In fact, the world recognizes the great sacrifice she made in staying back.

I think many of the characters were gray to start off with, but by the end of the epic, many did become black, or at least completely negative. I define gray-shaded people as those who make common human mistakes, but not anything that severely hurts another person. I believe we are all gray-shaded, as it's extremely rare and difficult to find truly pure/white-shaded people in this society. Black-shaded/negative people are those who commit crimes that hurt others. I think people use the term 'gray shaded' too commonly even for negative characters. Mistakes are not the same as crimes. Every human being makes mistakes, but not every human being commits a morally reprehensible crime. Sexual assault, murder, torture...these are not mistakes but crimes, and thus anyone who engages in such acts are black-shaded people, no matter their "justification". They are way beyond gray. Thus, I define the Kauravas as black-shaded/negative people by the end of the epic. They were way beyond redemption.

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